Point 1+2 doesnt count when rip is in the field.Originally Posted by twndomn
Point 3: OK
Point 4: What does terminus against omniscience ??? Nothing! You mean especially against Sneak Show... Well in hat MU is massremoval not very effective at all because sneak attack plays around verdict and terminus only works with SdT, its only good if he plays show&tell and say go without protection (which a good player doesnt do) or he draws 7 cards in response with grisel.
Moreover pyroclasm is good for balance (cc2), cheap and finally we only talk about a 1off card.
Every card has his pro's & con's but clasm is quiet good in the end.
LOL
I don't understand why you would agree with me, and then arrive at opposite conclusion in the end.
Your counter point 1 and 2 are Invalid. You say point 1 and 2 doesn't count when RiP is in play. That's a Conditional you Add it in. When we do strict card-by-card comparison, it does not make sense to add a what-if this is in play, what-if that is in play. What if RiP is in play and what if I respond to Pyroclasm by Abrupt Decay RiP and break a Fetch? Your logic does not validate anything if we are allowed to mention various board states with other cards in play.
Your counter point 4 is also Invalid. Both Terminus and Pyroclasm don't do much against Omniscience. How is Pyroclasm better when they are both irrelevant? You are skewing your argument by mentioning irrelevant stuff, while I have pointed out Terminus and Supreme Verdict at least have a chance, when Pyroclasm has no chance.
Please don't throw in a nonsensical conclusion when all the evidences suggest otherwise.
I talk the whole time about clasm in a rip version!
I dont agree with you! I said that every card has his pro's & con's but in the end pyroclasm is a good card, i didnt say that it's the best card.
About point 4: You said terminus or verdict are better against various show&tell Versions, thats wrong because it doesnt do anything. And against sneak show is massremoval in general bad...So its no good pro Argument for terminus, verdict or clasm...
But lets end this dumb discussion
Actually have to agree with twndomn on Pyroclasm. Your alternatives are Supreme Verdict and Terminus. Both wipe the field regardless of what is on it. One is uncounterable and the other can be cast at instant speed for.
Verdict's uncounterability is conditionally better against things like RUG, Tempoblade, and Fish. Terminus costingagainst decks that are packing Wasteland.
Pyroclasm is good against a host of x/1-2s, but then so is Terminus and for less strain on your mana. Just because you have Volcanics in your deck, doesn't mean you need to look for extraneous reasons to fetch them. Pyroclasm is also good against Goyf and Mongoose when you have down RIP... but let's think about that. If I have down Rest in Peace, do I care about a 0/1 and a 1/1? Not likely.
(Porphyry Nodes has some value in some versions of Maverick, but really isn't worth discussing for us.)
I usually keep either the 4th Terminus or a Supreme Verdict in the board. Both have a ton of overlap and I'll alternate between the two depending on how many aggro-control decks I expect to see.
If you really want to overload mass removal against stuff like Jund and Deathblade then I could see SBing some number of Pyroclasms, but I wouldn't run it over the 4th Terminus and I wouldn't cite killing Goyf and Mongoose under RIP as a selling point.
RiP is definitly in the field, I play 3 of them MD, 3 Englithened Tutor and 1 Humility too BTW..
I cut Vendilion Clique and aaaall the possible creatures around (this gives me more stability on the mana base)
I win with Entreat the Angels, Helm of Obedience, Planeswalkers (4/3 split now)
to go high on Tutors allows me to play nice techs in singletons like
Blood Moon
Humility
Energy Field
the CA we get with Brainstorm, Jace and top (quality CA here) repays me well of the lost of tempo caused by tutors.
an EOT Tutor for Blood Moon when he's all tapped or Humility are, in their own way, other win conditions. Not to mention the singleton Helm of Obedience that alt-wins us the day..
I definitly want to see at least 1 Tutor per match. sometimes even 2.
So here's the thing with Pyroclasm to me - it requires no setup and comes down early. Terminus isn't guaranteed without an SDT / Brainstorm, and doesn't cost 4 like verdict. It kills stoneforge, confidant, geist, deathrite, delver, goblins, etc early. Most importantly, it kills Gaddock Teeg, which I expect to see at least once per 4 rounds in my metagame. It's also easier to cast through Thalia. If you expect Maverick or similar decks, I think it's an upgrade over the 4th terminus or the first Supreme Verdict. It's excellent vs things like Deathblade and Jund where it can function by itself as a sweeper, and comes early enough to slow down explosive Deathrite Shaman starts, as well as killing Stoneforge Mystic before they get a chance to drop Batterskull.Actually have to agree with twndomn on Pyroclasm. Your alternatives are Supreme Verdict and Terminus. Both wipe the field regardless of what is on it. One is uncounterable and the other can be cast at instant speed for
Verdict's uncounterability is conditionally better against things like RUG, Tempoblade, and Fish. Terminus costing
Pyroclasm is good against a host of x/1-2s, but then so is Terminus and for less strain on your mana. Just because you have Volcanics in your deck, doesn't mean you need to look for extraneous reasons to fetch them. Pyroclasm is also good against Goyf and Mongoose when you have down RIP... but let's think about that. If I have down Rest in Peace, do I care about a 0/1 and a 1/1? Not likely.
(Porphyry Nodes has some value in some versions of Maverick, but really isn't worth discussing for us.)
I usually keep either the 4th Terminus or a Supreme Verdict in the board. Both have a ton of overlap and I'll alternate between the two depending on how many aggro-control decks I expect to see.
If you really want to overload mass removal against stuff like Jund and Deathblade then I could see SBing some number of Pyroclasms, but I wouldn't run it over the 4th Terminus and I wouldn't cite killing Goyf and Mongoose under RIP as a selling point.
All 3 massremoval are good but its important which version you play! In a RIP/Balance version I think pyroclasm is better as a 1off (instead of 4th terminus or 1off verdict) because its cheap, better for balance and is by the way an out to gaddock teeg. Sure in a non rip version the other two are better...Killing goyf or mungo under rip was no selling point, it was just a sidenote.Actually have to agree with twndomn on Pyroclasm. Your alternatives are Supreme Verdict and Terminus. Both wipe the field regardless of what is on it. One is uncounterable and the other can be cast at instant speed for
Verdict's uncounterability is conditionally better against things like RUG, Tempoblade, and Fish. Terminus costing
Pyroclasm is good against a host of x/1-2s, but then so is Terminus and for less strain on your mana. Just because you have Volcanics in your deck, doesn't mean you need to look for extraneous reasons to fetch them. Pyroclasm is also good against Goyf and Mongoose when you have down RIP... but let's think about that. If I have down Rest in Peace, do I care about a 0/1 and a 1/1? Not likely.
(Porphyry Nodes has some value in some versions of Maverick, but really isn't worth discussing for us.)
I usually keep either the 4th Terminus or a Supreme Verdict in the board. Both have a ton of overlap and I'll alternate between the two depending on how many aggro-control decks I expect to see.
If you really want to overload mass removal against stuff like Jund and Deathblade then I could see SBing some number of Pyroclasms, but I wouldn't run it over the 4th Terminus and I wouldn't cite killing Goyf and Mongoose under RIP as a selling point.
For me personally, i dont play a rip Version so i play the 1off verdict or s 4th terminus in the side but how I sad it depends in your Version...
While I understand your point, here's my problem with that logic. If you are using pyroclasm to kill a creature that comes down early, as you put it, you are really using it as the 5th StP. When you spend a resource that's designed to be a mass removal, but you use it as a targeted removal, it's negative value. This is the exact opposite thinking of Shardless BUG, which is all about boosting values.
While I do the necessarily evil of spending spell as you have described at times, this is really value lacking. That's why I stress the possibility of Black. If you really want to kill confidant, delver, goblin, you ought to look into Engineered Plague. This is after reading so many reports of "not able to draw any more removals" toward the end of paragraph, is spell really the way to go?
Thoughts on the mass removal discussion:
Is Pyroclasm really good enough to run maindeck? Maybe. It is certainly good against Esper Deathblade, Goblins, and Maverick. However, it is worthless against anything else. It is also red, which makes you more vulnerable to Wasteland.
Supreme Verdict is best against any combo or control deck. Because it is blue of course, but don't overlook that it costs four. That matters against Jace, Sneak Attack, Natural Order, Past In Flames, and probably other stuff. It is also the best against any creature deck that has counters.
Terminus is great against anything besides Gaddock Teeg, but having to be set up is a significant drawback.
Poryphyry Nodes has a big drawback in that if you draw it sometime after turn 2, you might get so far behind that you need to use another removal spell in combination with it. In this case, you have lost some of the value it was potentially going to give you.
I am still happy with
3 swords
3 terminus
1 supreme verdict
1 RIP
But Esper Deathblade is giving me some trouble,so I might have to make a change to gain a little in that matchup.
Well, since somebody mentioned one of my favorite cards, I supposed I can throw in my thoughts about Porphyry Nodes. In fact, I use this quite frequently in my control decks, depending on my particular configuration and what I expect to be popular at the time. I think many people look at nodes the wrong way. First, you need to realize that this is not your main removal source. You always want 3 Terminus (usually 4) and 4 Swords before you should even consider nodes. That said, adding nodes on top of those removal spells gives you an incredibly powerful removal suite.
For starters, nodes will always hit creatures. This is a huge deal. Sure Pyroclasm can be nice, but when your opponent slaps down that 2/3 tarmogoyf you'll certainly wish you had a porphyry nodes. It also deals with random creatures that are hard to deal with otherwise, for example, Thrun, the Last Troll or Nimble Mongoose. You may not run into such creatures all the time, but when you do, you will certainly be happy that you had nodes compared to a lot of other removal spells.
The main drawback people see with the card is that you have to take damage before you get the effect. This is true, there's no getting around that, but there are other things to consider. While you may take damage from a particular creature once, by having nodes in play you force your opponent to not play any more creatures. This time can be huge, especially early game. Kind of like how Spell pierce can be great against non-creature decks early, Porphyry Nodes is at its best against creature decks early, and this role is something no other removal spell really can fill. Consider playing against any deck that wants to play creatures on consecutive turns (as in, a lot of them). When you play nodes, you take damage from that creature once and force them to not play a follow up creature unless they want nodes to gain them card advantage. This means that the turn after you play nodes you generally are free to make a proactive play instead of a reactive one, which can really help you develop your board.
Just like how Terminus can be great at saving the day by sweeping the board, so can Porphyry Nodes. We all know that Terminus will get you random card advantage, and nodes will too. Don't think this doesn't happen; it's part of what makes nodes a strong choice for removal compared to a single target removal like Path to Exile. And if your opponent knows that you not only play nodes, but Terminus as well, you can gain tempo this way if they choose to only play one creature at a time in order to not lose card advantage.
Functioning as a sweeper, we must make the natural comparison to Supreme Verdict as well. The main difference here is that nodes is much more useful in the early stages in the game, especially when faced against a wasteland. We aim to get to 4 mana every game, but sometimes this is just hard, and being able to always cast nodes is a huge plus in its favor. In fact, you can play this turn three with mana to stop a spell pierce, and still be dealing with one creature the same time a supreme verdict would. The cannot be countered clause is useful against a force of will, but you generally have plenty of cards they already want to use that on; otherwise, taxing counters can all be worked around in playing nodes whenever you'd have the 4 mana to cast a supreme verdict.
Nodes is also useful against Show and Tell, and one of the few anti-aggro cards that actually is. So if you expect a meta with a lot of aggressive decks as well as Show and Tell, Nodes can certainly be a great call. A Griselbrand will certainly be hard to deal with, but nodes handles Emrakul like a champ. I've actually won a few games by having nodes to deal with an Emrakul, and it's really nice to have a tool against aggro and Show and Tell, two decks which generally are hard to fight with the same card.
I think this card is great. I usually run with 1-2 in my sideboard as removal pieces 9-10 and have always been happy with their benefits outweighing their drawbacks I have experienced.
Can you post your list as this sounds like the direction I want to be going in.
that deck hasn't Abrupt Decay...
-3 RiP
-1 Helm
-1 Humility
-1 Energy Field
-1 Enlightened Tutor
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Blood Moon (with another MD)
+2 Pyroclasm
+1 Terminus
it's one of the easiest matchup actually
Why would you SB out RiP when it can hose Snapcaster, Lingering Souls, and Academy Ruin? You want to SB it out for Pyroblast, which isn't even Stoneblade's primary win condition. That deck doesn't run Abrupt Decay, it runs Vindicate, have you actually read those lists? Seriously, compare to Joe/Oarsman, how many SCG Open have you Top 8, to make that so-called "one of the easiest" match-up assessment?
I bring in Blasts against them too. I have been using one RIP against them after boarding, and bringing in Engineered Explosives and my second Venser. Pyroclasm would actually be quite good there, but I don't see room to put it in my board.
I would rather have Pyroclasm against any tribal deck, but Explosives ability to kill Chalice of the Void seems too important to live without.
my 4 leyline of Sanctity are probably what makes the difference. anyway. here is my list
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Humility
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Counterbalance (yup, the other 3 in SB and we still play 3 Tutors)
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, TMS
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
5 Island
2 Pyroclasm
3 Pyroblast
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Counterbalance
2 Blood Moon
1 Energy Field
floating spots:
Meddling Mage
Porphyry Nodes
Supreme Verdict
yup Chalice of the Void and Batterskull are one of my worst nightmare
3x Disenchant somewhere will be needed probably
(How is the singleton EE good against CHalice? you should tutor for it, but Chalice..)
I've been stuck trying to make Shardless BUG a favorable matchup. Every time I play against it, I get stomped to the ground.
I play the RiP-Helm version, but it's looking like I may need to give up on the combo finish and play with either Punishing Fire or the Stoneblade + Snapcaster route.
For reference, this is the list I'm running:
Anyone have more experience who can shed some light on the matchup?1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
1 Blood Moon
1 Detention Sphere
3 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karakas
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
Sideboard
1 Counterspell
1 Energy Field
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear/Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Humility
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Blood Moon
3 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
4 Terminus
2 Pyroclasm
that matchup is rather 50% or more, actually. The only problem is our slowness.
Jace, Leyline, Humility are all 4cc.
I'm seriously considering some Sol Lands.
We like a turn 3 Jace/Humility
Not sure if you read the tourney report or not, but this guy did mention a thing or two about the MU:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-SCG-Baltimore
I think REBs are really solid against Shardless BUG (most BUGs probably though Shardless is the only one that gives me trouble).
I oscillate between wanting Leylines and wanting Counterbalance against them though. Counterbalance isn't bad. Like others have said, it's at worst a 1-for-1 and they have to deal with a lock in order to win. On the other hand, Leyline handles their 7-8 discard spells and 2 Lilianas rather nicely. Leyline isn't as good against BUG as it is against Jund, but it definitely isn't bad.
I don't think there is room to keep in Counterbalance and bring in both Leylines and REBs. REB feels necessary for now (though that might change with the new m14 rules) and Leyline allows you to hold things like REB in hand without worrying about discard. I could imagine a post-m14 world where I'd just ignore BUG's Jaces, only bringing in Leylines and leaving REB on the sideline.
Things like Elspeth and extra Entreats are also rather bomby against them and usually will win the game if you can set them up.
Helm is pretty reasonable against them. If you run out the Helm first then play the RIP second, they have to play the rest of the game with Abrupt Decay mana up or just lose (though the way things pan out, you'll usually have the RIP out first). Even though it feels wrong, I could see leaving in some or most RIP and boarding out the Helm.
I'm also thinking about boarding either a Wurmcoil or a Batterskull as an additional hard-to-answer threat for GBx. Wurmcoil is probably better against their removal suite, but Batterskull has some nice applications against Dream Halls (being a tutorable 5-drop).
Whichever way you go, I'd probably be boarding out FoWs, Cliques (because they pair up so poorly against Strix), and likely Spell Pierces.
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