Miracle Control

[ivanpei]

The manabase for the Punishing Fire build sucks. I might only be saying that because I just came back from a tournament where I went 2-3 from getting wastelanded at the wrong times. I didn't think Wasteland was that big of a deal since I've played with the same amount of basic lands in other Miracle builds, but it is. Having to fetch a volcanic to cast Punishing Fire online while the rest of the deck can run off basic lands kind of throws the deck off a bit.

Before you say anything, realize that I probably love punishing fire/grove in blue decks way more that most people. That includes you, kaosjr. I have witnesses who will testify in my defense. I love it so much, I'll probably still play it again, even though it has been sucking for me.

It's cool though, just had some vodka and I feel better now. Thug life!

This is a major problem. A UWr manabase cannot run Pfires optimally. I'd advise playing a URw list if you want to run Pfires. However you will lose Entreat and Elspeth, which I'm not quite sure if its worth it.

[Shawn]

My sample size is small, but my losses in the three major events I have played with the deck were due to misplays and my opponents just drawing better, not the mana. I count 15 u sources in the above list with 15 white, whereas I have 18 u and 15 white in my list. Additionally, simply playing more lands does wonders against mana disruption; I have 24 main and 1 side and I love the 25th land. You have so many engines whicg take advantage of having extra lands like Jace, Eta, Baneslayer, and so on that being mana screwed is much scarier than flooding for this type of deck. Sorry for the brevity, this is on my phone. Here is my mananase, for reference:

24
4 Strand
3 Delta
1Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
1Colonnade
1 Mystic Gate
2 Volcanic
1 Sea
3 Grove
1 Karakas
2 Plains
3 Island

[Valtrix]

So, with the change of the legend rule, would there be any interest in running Intuition? I've played with it a lot in this type of control shell (when I had a place to play...) and was always happy with it's power and versatility. Now, it seems even better because it's effectively a "1-card combo" by getting Life From the Loam + Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths. There's the obvious reliance on graveyard, but I think the beauty is that you can completely play around your graveyard if you want--simply getting 3 tops with an Intuition is completely acceptable. As with any combo, you have the downside of dead pieces, but dark depths is only the truly dead card, and as we've seen this has been acceptable with running Helm of Obedience to instantly win with Rest In Peace. Life from the loam is insane in this deck, with mana consistency and the ability to see 6 cards a turn with a top and fetchland; plus Thespian's Stage really is just a colorless land so it shouldn't hurt you too much.

It's been awhile since I've really gotten to play or follow the meta, but the following rough list is where I might start:


//Creatures
4 Baleful Strix

//Spells
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
2 Counterspell
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition
1 Entreat the Angels

//Lands
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tropical Island
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 Porphyry Nodes
SB: 2 Divert
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt


Disclaimer 1: I don't know if Baleful Strix would be the best choice, but I've really been interested in the card, so would probably try some number of them out if I ever got a chance to play Legacy again. It'd be easy enough to replace them with 4 other useful cards though. Strix seems useful against basically everything, since against anybody that plays a creature (which is most decks), you get a 2-for-1 trade, and at worst he's a 2cc cantrip. Plus, the interaction with academy ruins is not to be ignored either in my opinion.
Disclaimer 2: Yes I realize that the sideboard would need work; I tend to play very versatile answers in my boards when I first create an iteration of a list or don't know the meta.

I apologize for the lack of real depth of this post; I've been out of Legacy for awhile so I don't want to say too much, but playing Dark Depths with the new legend rule has been on my mind for awhile, since I already was running Intuition in my miracles deck. If there's some interest behind developing this idea further, I'd be happy to discuss it.

[ivanpei]

The game has changed alot since the old "It's the Fear" days. Back then Eot intuition for lands and loam was a perfectly acceptable play. Right now, thats pretty slow. Jace or walkers in general are far more efficient card advantage engines.

[Dzra]

Now, it seems even better because it's effectively a "1-card combo" by getting Life From the Loam + Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths. There's the obvious reliance on graveyard, but I think the beauty is that you can completely play around your graveyard if you want--simply getting 3 tops with an Intuition is completely acceptable. As with any combo, you have the downside of dead pieces, but dark depths is only the truly dead card, and as we've seen this has been acceptable with running Helm of Obedience to instantly win with Rest In Peace.

Without RIP, Helm is pretty much a dead card. Without Thespian's Stage, Dark Depths is a dead card.

RIP by itself is a great card against a wide variety of decks. Thespian's Stage by itself is more or less a colorless land.

For , you can tutor RIP or Helm... or Top or Counterbalance or Detention Sphere, and can be used to set up Counterbalance (also, Helm being 4 cmc isn't something to scoff at). For , you can tutor your entire combo or any other card, but at the risk of being blown out by Surgical Extraction or other disruption.

With RIP and , Helm wins you the game instantly. With Thespian's Stage and , Dark Depths might win you the game the next time you can attack, assuming your opponent has no blockers... or worse, hoping they have no Terminus, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Karakas, Submerge, or Baleful Strix).

Further, Intuition packages are both bad against the mirror (where you are about 50:50 to see RIP) as well as the tons of Deathrites floating about.

[ivanpei]

To be honest in straight up UW lists, Tolaria west, Dark Depths and Thespian Stage can be run as another win condition.

As this deck is quite mana heavy, running a few colourless lands is ok. Perhaps a package of 3 Thespian Stage, 1 Dark Depths & 2-3 Tolaria Wests would be worth testing. In UWx decks, I dont think the manabase can afford the colourless.

The only advantage I can see for running the combo is to speed up the clock. Since miracles goes to time very often. Otherwise, it's a veryslow and vulnerable combo.

[Poron]

Tolaria West might serve too as an uncounterable Tutor for EE...

and might be considered in the green splashed version with Loam.
Definitly worth the spot (in the Intuition-Loam version, clearly)

the spots are rather strict at this point.
I only feel I'd want more counters and Disenchant in my version actually..

[Valtrix]

For , you can tutor RIP or Helm... or Top or Counterbalance or Detention Sphere, and can be used to set up Counterbalance (also, Helm being 4 cmc isn't something to scoff at). For , you can tutor your entire combo or any other card, but at the risk of being blown out by Surgical Extraction or other disruption.

Tutor can also get blown out by Vendilion Clique, which you're more likely to see than Surgical Extraction. I also tried to make the point was that Intuition has way more choices than just doing something with the graveyard; even just getting three tops is worth it.

With RIP and , Helm wins you the game instantly. With Thespian's Stage and , Dark Depths might win you the game the next time you can attack, assuming your opponent has no blockers... or worse, hoping they have no Terminus, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Karakas, Submerge, or Baleful Strix).

Yes, you do win the game instantly. However, this assumes you have assembled both cards which can be a problem. Intuition lets you set up a win condition (albeit in a couple turns) with a single card. While they may have answers to the token dark depths puts into play, you must also remember that setting this combination up gives you inevitability. Removal only buys them time because you can just loam for stage + depths and try again. Thus, this requires them to have karakas, graveyard removal, or to kill you fast enough. What I like is that adding stage-depths gives you an option to just win the game, but hardly makes your deck reliant on the graveyard at all.

Further, Intuition packages are both bad against the mirror (where you are about 50:50 to see RIP) as well as the tons of Deathrites floating about.

This is both true and untrue: getting a graveyard package is bad when you see graveyard hate, sure. However, with hate around you could always just setup a counter-top softlock or get some other card to help you out instead. It's really quite easy to play around graveyard hate when using Intuition, and intuition is almost always one of the strongest plays you can make in any matchup.

As this deck is quite mana heavy, running a few colourless lands is ok. Perhaps a package of 3 Thespian Stage, 1 Dark Depths & 2-3 Tolaria Wests would be worth testing. In UWx decks, I dont think the manabase can afford the colourless.

I disagree. There is always some risk in adding more colors, but as long as you are running very low numbers of cards in your splash it's usually not hard to get that color when you need it in my experience. That said, if you're running UW I certainly like the idea of trying to fit in Stage-depths with Tolaria West. You have a pretty low opportunity cost in two colors (namely one dead card and the enters the battlefield tapped lands), but have the potential to just end the game quickly.

Tolaria West might serve too as an uncounterable Tutor for EE...

This should rarely be a concern since your opponent could just counter your EE in most cases instead of the tutor.

[Poron]

the point is the singleton validity of EE to deal with CotV.

ET gets countered by Chalice, Tolaria West doesn't.
It goes alone that you should play it when you feel safe

[Dzra]

Tutor can also get blown out by Vendilion Clique, which you're more likely to see than Surgical Extraction. I also tried to make the point was that Intuition has way more choices than just doing something with the graveyard; even just getting three tops is worth it.

And if the Top gets countered? Now you are left with a single Top in your deck. If you are in a grindy MU, that is fairly abysmal. Not to mention that Enlightened Tutor means you have access to a t2 Top with one mana open. Intuition gives you access to a much slower t4 Top.

the point is the singleton validity of EE to deal with CotV.

ET gets countered by Chalice, Tolaria West doesn't.
It goes alone that you should play it when you feel safe

Honestly, Chalice on 1 isn't that horrible for this deck. I used to play a Seal of Cleansing and in response to a Chalice for 1, I'd go and find it and lay it down t2. At least half the time, I never had to bother with cracking it though. Chalice on 2 can actually be a pretty big problem, but again, you can play around it. The worst thing Chalice on 1 does is stop you from playing a Top, if you hadn't already, and makes fighting Tezzerat a bit more awkward.

[Poron]

also, what about the UB Tezzeret matchup?

Anything in that deck is a threat.
Not even RiP/Field seals the match there.. 7 Planeswalkers, 4 CotV.

I'm rather short of ideas... 8 Pyroblast?... :D (joking)

That matchup would require a totally different SB and a rather different 3-4 slot maindeck..

[Dzra]

also, what about the UB Tezzeret matchup?

Anything in that deck is a threat.
Not even RiP/Field seals the match there.. 7 Planeswalkers, 4 CotV.

I'm rather short of ideas... 8 Pyroblast?... :D (joking)

That matchup would require a totally different SB and a rather different 3-4 slot maindeck..

Have you tested against UB Tezz much? I haven't found the MU to be that hard. Resolve Counterbalance + Top and they are pretty much done. CMC2 counters just about everything relevant they can do and CMC4 counters the rest. RIP shuts off Academy Ruins and their thopters, which also makes Tezz's kill a lot slower.

I would board out most or all of your Swords and a FoW or two. Spell Pierce is fine on the play, but can be somewhat hit or miss on the draw. Some Terminus can still be relevant against them. Bring in REB, more CMC4 (Venser and Elspeth), extra Counterbalance, and an Oblivion Ring if you have it. Pithing Needle has some good targets also.

[joretapo]

Have personal tutor or long term plans been talked about already?
playing 3 games is very often an issue with limited time to play rounds
i often find myself wanting an entreat to end the game faster once control is established

i played a casual version with mystical tutor and it is ultra strong (instant FOW, CS, brainstorm, terminus entreat on top of the deck) I undestand legacy legal alternatives are not that strong but i would like to know if it has been put to the test :

personal tutor is sorcery speed but can set up a nice entreat or terminus on opp's turn for only 1 blue and the card disadvantage (which you do not mind anyway if you are setting up a terminus or an entreat)

long term plans is instant speed and grabs any card but is 3 cmc, it can be played at their end of turn wich somewhat ofsets the 3 cmc, and you must not be on a 1 turn clock or have a top and the mana to use it on top of playing long term plans

[alphastryk]

Have personal tutor or long term plans been talked about already?
playing 3 games is very often an issue with limited time to play rounds
i often find myself wanting an entreat to end the game faster once control is established

i played a casual version with mystical tutor and it is ultra strong (instant FOW, CS, brainstorm, terminus entreat on top of the deck) I undestand legacy legal alternatives are not that strong but i would like to know if it has been put to the test :

personal tutor is sorcery speed but can set up a nice entreat or terminus on opp's turn for only 1 blue and the card disadvantage (which you do not mind anyway if you are setting up a terminus or an entreat)

long term plans is instant speed and grabs any card but is 3 cmc, it can be played at their end of turn wich somewhat ofsets the 3 cmc, and you must not be on a 1 turn clock or have a top and the mana to use it on top of playing long term plans

You shouldn't need it. Honestly if both you and your opponent play at a reasonable pace, 3 games should be completable in 50 minutes. Once you get the game under control, the win should snowball pretty quickly. I'd recommend around 3-4 non-jace wincons to make sure you can set something up in time.

[joretapo]

You shouldn't need it. Honestly if both you and your opponent play at a reasonable pace, 3 games should be completable in 50 minutes. Once you get the game under control, the win should snowball pretty quickly. I'd recommend around 3-4 non-jace wincons to make sure you can set something up in time.

I play Raphael Levy's list, i have 3 JTMS, 2 elspeth, 1 CB, 2 Entreat, 2 cliques / 3 snaps along with 4 ponders to smooth things up . List is very stable.

I know for a fact i can improve my play speed, but i still feel a bit more speed could be usefull, i must admit that maybe it is just me that like toolbox lists :)

[alphastryk]

I play Raphael Levy's list, i have 3 JTMS, 2 elspeth, 1 CB, 2 Entreat, 2 cliques / 3 snaps along with 4 ponders to smooth things up . List is very stable.

I know for a fact i can improve my play speed, but i still feel a bit more speed could be usefull, i must admit that maybe it is just me that like toolbox lists :)

Yeah, seems like you should have absolutely no problem going to time. I'm usually done with 20+ minutes left with 3 JTMS, 1 Elspeth, 2 Entreat, 3 RIP, 1 Helm, 2 E Tutor, and 1 Clique or 3 JTMS, 1 Elspeth, 2 Entreat, 2 Clique, and that's with only 1-2 Ponders.

[twndomn]

You shouldn't need it. Honestly if both you and your opponent play at a reasonable pace, 3 games should be completable in 50 minutes. Once you get the game under control, the win should snowball pretty quickly. I'd recommend around 3-4 non-jace wincons to make sure you can set something up in time.

Well..., it really depends on lots of factors, including which version you are playing. I remember watching SCG Open: Seattle, Joe/Oarsman barely finished game 3 at round 9, to get into Top 8 ( http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/393858268 ). Back to your point, it's not as automatic as you have described.

[alphastryk]

Well..., it really depends on lots of factors, including which version you are playing. I remember watching SCG Open: Seattle, Joe/Oarsman barely finished game 3 at round 9, to get into Top 8 ( http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/393858268 ). Back to your point, it's not as automatic as you have described.

(Match starts around 11:34 so others don't have to look for it)

Having watched that match, I feel like neither of the players was especially fast, and I certainly would have asked the Jund player to play faster on several occasions.

[Poron]

i'm like 20-1 against Shardless bug with my list. I feel that matchup like 80%



Scalding Tarn 3
Flooded Strand 4
Arid Mesa 2
Tundra 3
Plains (4) 2
Island (3) 6
Volcanic Island 2
Spell Pierce 2
Swords to Plowshares 4
Jace, the Mind Sculptor 3
Brainstorm 4
Terminus 3
Sensei's Divining Top 4
Counterbalance 3
Force of Will 4
Rest in Peace 3
Energy Field 2
Enlightened Tutor 3
Helm of Obedience 1
Entreat the Angels 2

Sideboard
Blood Moon 2
Divert 3
Pyroblast 3
Leyline of Sanctity 4
Terminus 1
Pyroclasm 2

in my 75
4 Terminus
4 StP
2 Pyroclasm
3 Divert (AD Ancestral Vision when tapped out for Cascade guys)

RiP against all of their creatures but the Cascade guys..
With all those sweepers (+ RiP) I found myself keeping StP just for Dark Confidant.

I feel it like the easiest matchup around
I even Diverted twice an Ancestral Vision and an Hymn to Tourach out of Cascade...

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Has anyone thought about swerve instead of divert?