I think it's good to consider new cards to add but I don't really think young pyromancer is worth playing.
If you lose steam after turn 4 then hopefully they're in burn range: Goblin Guide certainly helps achieve this. If you cut guide for this Pyromancer then you're hoping that a 2/1 and a few "little" 1/1s can make up for not having any gas in the first place. Seeing as this strategy suffers from nearly the exact same 'problem' as relying on guide, hinging on an easily chumpable dork and his chumpable dork-friends, I fail to see how it's such an improvement over the goblin when it costs a whole extra manaGood luck in keeping having your deck lose steam after turn 4 and being raped by Counterbalance or Tarmogoyf, then. I think it's not really difficult to see how this guy can be dropped on turn 2 and being a must answer in a deck with so many instant and sorceries, whereas they can leave your little Goblin Guide on the ground for 1232 turns and gain card advantage with Brainstorm, recovering mulligans and building to stabilization. Pyromancer alone can create 3/4+ power and keep a board on his own which also expose you less to Terminus and Pyroclasm/EE; if they do, it's been still 1 for 1. Not to mention the Snapcaster sinergy.
I'm *always* happy to see Goblin Guide on the other side of the table, I would be far less to see this thingie coming down if I hadn't a removal spell. Just dropping 2 1/1s mean that, even if I get rid of him, I will suffer 2 damage more every turn and have to deal with 2 other creatures. Take the exact shell you're playing, drop Guide for YP, add 2 Probes, you now have a tempo/burn deck with a card that alone can flood a board at the drawback of what, making the deck slightly slower? Delver Burn is already not optimized for being as fast as burn is, with the increase add of being more consistent. Well, this guy would push it back to a t1,5 status, significantly improving every fair matchup (the green decks for sure); I wouldn't shit on him at all.
If you're afraid of "running out of gas" and don't think that the burn strategy is viable then that's fine, but it's almost certainly correct to go find some Goyfs and Geese rather than stick straight UR while making your deck a worse version of canadian.
Every time I start to write a counter in my head you've already posted it a few posts downOriginally Posted by H3llsp4wn
This card is sweet though, and will definitely be in few standard brews of mine.
First I was thinking "sweet, Talrand will like this fella!", but then I realized most cool cards are going to rotate once this one gets release. :(
Anyway, I guess I'll have to put him in a sweet RDW (or even UR with Ral Zarek) build with Ogre Battledriver and Chandra's Phoenix.
As for Legacy, I'll look into a Punishing Fire (probably greedy RUG) shell.
Heard the rumor that Nivmagus guy won the swiss portion in Porotour Legacy event last sunday.
http://porotour.com/2013/05/26/poro-...ists/#more-530
He won manaless ichorid 2-0 in quarters.
He continued his rampage to semifinals where he lost tight game 1-2 to Hivemind.
Swiss matchups:
TES 2-1
RUG 2-0
Merfolk 1-2
TES 2-1
UWR Miracles 2-0
BUG Delver 2-0
Oops all spells 2-1
Yeah that guy was me, end of brags. :) List and top10 lists in the link.
Cheers, Jani
Lost in semis yesterday, 30-something people, got Taiga (my first green dual! have 12 others, never with green :)), Windswept Heath and random promo foils for my troubles.
Still can't believe how good this deck is considering its power level compared to all (except burn.dec) other legacy decks.
I also think Young Pyromancer would be great in a Nivmagus build.
I'm going to brew a version with lots of cantrips (4 Ponder / 4 Brainstorm / 2-3 Gitaxian Probe) to be able to chain cantrips with Nivmagus / Pyromancer on the field.
They have started experimenting with Gitaxian Probe in the RUG Delver thread. I think probe is even better in U/R Delver Nivmagus. It's good with Nivmagus, because it lets you know if the opponent has removal, and whether you should boost Nivmagus. It also combines well with Snapcaster Mage.
You can do something like:
T1: Nivmagus
T2: Bolt
T3:
- Gitaxian Probe, see no removal / nothing relevant
- Snapcaster Mage, targeting Gitaxian Probe
- Gitaxian Probe flashbacked
- Daze it
- Flusterstorm it
- Exile 5 flusterstorm spells, Daze, and the flashbacked Gitaxian Probe
- Attack with 15/16 Nivmagus
Probe is also good with Young Pyromancer.
Cute but only 19 damage. If they have used a fetchland that is fine but you might have to exile the Bolt T2 and attack with a 3/4 Nivmage and then make it 17/18 on Turn 3.
My Legacy Decks of choice: Pox, Miracles, D&T or Lands.
Online Trading Reference Checker
Congrats on your finish!
I've been testing a very similar Nivmagus list lately with good results. Same MD as yours except -1 Clout, -1 Clique, -1 Volcanic, +1 Ponder, +1 Daze, +1 Fetch MD. My reasoning behind these choices is to maximize the ability to blind flip Delvers, upping my instant and sorcery count to 29. Clique is amazing but with 18 lands it is sometimes struggling to reach three mana. I think Clout is very good in removal heavy match-ups but I've had plenty of games where it just sits there in my hand and does nothing. Plus it really requires your opponent to tap out before being able to play it safely. I still run two copies of Clout and one Clique in my board.
What do you think about these changes? How important have the MD Clique and Cloat been? Also Young Pyromancer seems interesting but rather slow for the deck. But I will definitely test it to see how it works. Maybe as a two-of in place of 1 Daze and Ponder... Would love to hear your opinions.
Cheers,
Lauri
Your reasoning for blindflipping delvers is pretty solid, have been thinking about that point too. I have been wanting to add fourth daze sometimes, but it gets pretty bad fast without mana denial, so I havent.
Ponders I feel like I don't need more, have been contemplating adding gitaxian probe for shenigans described earlier.
Maindeck Clique is just a test, it has been pretty good when drawn, but as a one off it comes around only when you least except it. Reasoning for having it is probably that I just wanted another threath.
Clout is just there to mise away games with third turn kill. And if you are holding clout and flusterstorm T2, you actually want them to stop the magus and get free value. Clouted Delver T2 after tapping out to remove lesser man also sometimes just steals game.
Changes are so small that they boil down to personal taste, I have played list with many different combinations of cards and cannot really tell which is best. You can find my top10 legacychamps decklist and Gpt Strasbourg finals list in this thread, you go figure what those changes mean. It's bit of meta choice, in champs I excepted chalice decks and green based decks, met few of those, now I was expecting combo, played three in swiss.
So I've been testing a quite different UR Delver build for about four months now and my results have been quite stellar so far. I'm posting it here to get some discussion going about a new twist on the archetype and to see if anybody has tried/wants to try this approach.
My list focuses on closing games out early(turn3 or 4). Mainly to outrace combo or opposing bombs like Jace or something. But it also has an added bonus of making taxing counters practically unfair because your opponent will be unable to play around them in the face of your pressure.
Delver Fiend
Maindeck=60
-Manabase-16
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
-Creatures-10
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kiln Fiend
2 Nivmagus Elemental
-Cantrips/Dig-15
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
-Countersuit-8
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
-Burn Spells-11
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Dart
3 Forked Bolt
*Sideboard*
3 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
3 Price of Progress
2 Chain Lightning
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
Kiln Fiend makes for an explosive, comboesque finish in almost every game he goes unanswered for a single turn. He's a reliable way to flat out race combo decks since we have the tools to slow them down easily. 26(excluding FoW and Daze)cards in the deck pump him for either one or zero mana.
This deck has a fair matchup against pretty much every archetype. There are no autowin or autolose matches as far as I can tell. The sideboard is sort of thrown together with the DTBs in mind. The extra burn comes in against decks packing insane amounts of removal or decks with horrid clocks that you can simply race with burn to the dome. The extra counters come in against combo or to prevent Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, or 3sphere(in that order) from resolving.
This deck is a blast to play.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
Recently switched over from the Shocks to the Chain Lightnings and love the results. You guys were right
Also went from 2 Daze and 2 spell pierce to 3 daze and 1 spell pierce and absolutely love, love, love the results
Even experimented a little with Nivmagus and hated it. I always found my spells were more importantly for altering the board state in my favor than to give Niv some counters. Sure I exiled the occasional ponder and daze, but it just wasn't as effective as I hoped.
I may experiment with Kiln Fiend. I like the potential. Although if I do, I may add a Chain Lightning, since with no evasion, I'll want to kill creatures in his way AND pump him.
Really just wanted thoughts on Daze vs. Spell Pierce, been drinking a little and rambled
Here is a list I have that is maindecked for the 'fair' decks and can move into pure combo mode against other combo decks or decks that would be very vulnerable to a nivmagus combo.
And in the main Delver-focused mode, an early dropped Delver with Hexproof or a hasted Lavamancer in a key situation isnt bad.
NivMagus Delver
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x NivMagus Elemental
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Daze
4x Flusterstorm
2x Spell Pierce
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
1x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Clout of the Dominus
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Volcanic Island
2x Island
2x Mountain
2x Sulfer Falls
Side
2x Spell Pierce
2x Clout of the Dominus
3x Gut shot
4x Gitixian Probe
4x Surgical Extraction
Maindecking a focus on NivMagus combo I think is done best with a splash of black for Snuff Out and Death's Shadow. Perhaps there should be a seperate thread for that deck.
Died in the quarterfinals of a small local event today, playing Andrew's exact 75 from the invitational
Round 1 URW Delver
After some tight games 1 and 2 he misplays in 3 by tapping out too much mana for a Geist after I use pyroblast to kill his delver. He dies to price of progress
Round 2 Jund
Game 1 I misplay by burning his liliana out to keep any future threats alive when he has active Grove+Fire and I have no cards in hand, but I topdeck Price like a man to deal him 8 (he's on 7)
Game 2 PoP again for 6 and snap it back I'm pretty sure Jund cannot beat that card
Round 3 RUG Delver
Fairly close game 1 but off his mull to 5 he was never really in it.
He sat next to me in a previous round and he had the board-into-SNT-omniscience-emrakul plan assuming that all his opponents will board their FoWs out. However, he knows that I know this so I just hedge by boarding out 3 FoWs for 2 pyroblasts and the pierce. I pierce his first SnT, mise my 1-of FoW for the second one and snap-pierce the third one. After playing tightly and about to untap for the carefully planned lethal I just topdeck price and shoot him for 10, card is OP.
Round 4 BUG Delver ID
Round 5 Don't even know lol ID
2nd after swiss, 1st place is my friend playing BUG from round 4
Quarterfinals Tinfins
It's only a 19 man event or thereabouts, I could have spent 10 seconds to find out what my opponent is playing but my game 1 keep of Goblin Guide, Brainstorm Bolt, Lands is not sufficient against Tinfins and I'm effectively dead when he plays Griselbrand on turn 1.
Game 2 I am able to board into a configuration with 3 Surgicals 4 Fows 4 Spell Pierce 2 Pyroblast and 2 Daze but he draws enough discard to get rid of double pierce and double surgical. My leftover cards are like Delver and Lavamancer while his are Shallow Grave and Entomb so my event is over.
I realised you should board in Sulfuric Vortex in this MU too because turning Griselbrand's Lifelink off is extremely relevant and it will deal more damage over the course of the game than Lavamancer (for example) which has no creatures to target anyway.
I think the list is really good, I used every SB card except smelt. I don't think I would change anything for the next event that I played in.
Let me know if you have any specific questions
PoP is strong, but your RUG opponent must have been a bad player to play so much lands with his deck and against UR...
He's not a bad player, he's topped a few nationals etc: Once he's committed to the Show and Tell plan he has no other option because he has to try and play around spell pierce/daze.
Another small event yesterday
Nic Fit 2-1
Deathblade 2-1
Elves 2-0
Jund 2-0
Top 4 Nic Fit 1-2
Annoyingly the Nic Fit player who I beat in round 1 is the same one who knocked me out in top 4 AND it's also the person who beat me with Tinfins the day before. I'm still not that sad about it because with the store credit from this event and the random foil draw from the day before I basically break even on entry fees and it's the first time I have played in events with UR after owning the deck for about a week.
How do you guys board against Nic Fit and Elves?
Kombatkiwi, Do we have your list somewhere so we know the side?
I usually board some amount of submerges if I play them and Grafdiggers Cage/Surgical Extraction depending on versions Nic Fit or Elves is playing. I feel like that I don't need so much against elves, since I already have 3 Lavamancers and lots of burn.
Nic Fit I don't see a lot in our meta now, but I usually just am faster deck if opening hands are anywhere decent.
I had
3 Extractions
1 PoP
1 Pierce
4 Lava Spike
2 Pyroblast
2 Smelt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Against Nic Fit I just boarded out the 2 maindeck PoP for 2 Sulfuric Vortex
It might have been correct to put the Lava Spikes in for some combination of FoW and Spell Pierce
Against Elves I didn't board anything
Yeah. Probably no cards that would be better than what you have in 60 against Elves.
I have a feeling, that depending bit of which version of Nic fit is played, that you daze/fow explorer and kill them before they get the deck rolling. They can have serious problems starting up if they don't get their daily dose of ramping.
@kombatwiki
If he's not bad, why does he board into a bad version of SnT, when he has a pretty decent MU? FoW is no argument, since you board in better Blasts...
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