Miracle Control

[Einherjer]

Just so you know this won't really work against anyone who is aware of how the stack works. If you play RIP, they Snare and you cast Flusterstorm they can just allow all of the copies of Flusterstorm to resolve and then with RIP still on the stack cast Daze, Force, Stifle etc. The only example you gave which is true is REB since they can't target RIP or profitably use it against Flusterstorm.

I am well aware of this "trick". Though what I said is that Flusterstorm is (pretty much) uncounterable. Though I have to admit that my examples were just fucking plain superbad - ergo wrong. I am sorry. You still want Flusterstorm over probably any other counter due to various reasons. It is the most potent counter for protecting your Fetchlands against Stifle. In this Match-Up it is always a better Spell Pierce.

Sorry again for the brainfart.

Greetings

[sauce]

the way to beat RUG is just play lands and jam all your spells around daze/pierce, playing your own counterspells seems like a good way to get dazed/pierced

[Adryan]

Hey guys what do you think are bad matchups for Miracle? I want to play a Snapcaster Miracle build (i don't like the Carddisadvantage of Enlightened Tutor etc) with more Cantrips and 2-3 Entreat the Angels in it's 75 and 3 RIP in the SB.

Despite having very few experience with Miracle i consider Jund a positive Matchup with 2-3 Entreat. Make land drops, kill creatures, play*Entreat and win.

I suppose bad matchups are BUG Control (i'm 100% sure about that because i feel invincible whenever i play against Miracle, especially with Pernicious Deed), Esper Control (not sure about that, maybe depends on the numers of Lingering Souls etc.), Omnitell (not sure) and maybe RUG Delver.

So any opinions about that? I want to build this deck on Magic Online, so i appreciate any comments/ thoughts about bad matchups (the longer the better :-) ).

Thanks a lot.

[twndomn]

Hey guys what do you think are bad matchups for Miracle?

12 Posts.

[dsck]

Goblins and 12 post are horrible game 1, you can make them way better post board (Moat, Blood Moon).

[sdematt]

BUG Landstill is also bad for Miracles.

-Matt

[alphastryk]

Hey guys what do you think are bad matchups for Miracle?...

Actively bad:

12post, BUG decks, Goblins

Unfavorable:

BGx decks (Jund, Junk, etc), Merfolk, Hoogland Loam

My personal thoughts, I know others may disagree on some of them. The best way I can describe it is we are soft to certain cards / strategies - Liliana, Cavern of Souls, Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, raw CA (Goblin Ringleader, Cascade dudes, Confidant)

[magic_gazz]

Just wanted to say thanks for the tips on the RUG match.

It is interesting that people are saying to take out your counters because I was thinking that Force may actually be good against them.

When I played it seemed like the whole gameplan for RUG was making a threat and protecting it. I thought that having Force for that first threat may help, but I like what people have described better.

[magic_gazz]

Actively bad:

12post, BUG decks, Goblins

Unfavorable:

BGx decks (Jund, Junk, etc), Merfolk, Hoogland Loam

My personal thoughts, I know others may disagree on some of them. The best way I can describe it is we are soft to certain cards / strategies - Liliana, Cavern of Souls, Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, raw CA (Goblin Ringleader, Cascade dudes, Confidant)

That's a lot of decks to have as bad unfavourable matches. If that is true then what is the point of playing this deck? It seems to me that there are a lot of BGx decks.

A resolved Liliana is a problem for sure, but Deathrite seems to be easily taken care of with RIP and from my limited experience Abrupt Decay just gives them a chance to get back in the game rather than winning it for them.

[twndomn]

Actively bad:

12post, BUG decks, Goblins

Unfavorable:

BGx decks (Jund, Junk, etc), Merfolk, Hoogland Loam

My personal thoughts, I know others may disagree on some of them. The best way I can describe it is we are soft to certain cards / strategies - Liliana, Cavern of Souls, Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, raw CA (Goblin Ringleader, Cascade dudes, Confidant)

I totally understand where you are coming from, but... that's a rather pessimistic view of looking at these Match-ups, cheer up~!

Actually, even post board 12 Post is difficult, some Posts have 4 chalices in the SB. Goblins do get easier SB games though. Oarsman is correct in that Liliana is most powerful if resolving early (when is he incorrect?). Loam and BGx decks are powerful if you either run 0~1 RiP or non-Punishing Fire version.

[Tammit67]

You can talk about matchups all you want, but one of the benefits of playing a deck like this is you have so many decisions and potential points of interaction that player skill is the single most important aspect of the match.

Except against cloudposts. good gravy have fun with that deck.

[sauce]

Goblins and 12 post are horrible game 1, you can make them way better post board (Moat, Blood Moon).

I disagree, I find goblins to be favorable for us. I am not sure why you think it's bad? All you really need is to blow them out with a terminus and set up angels.
You have a bunch of 1-for-1 removal spells and brainstorms/tops to find everything you need G1.
The only way you lose is if they go T1 lackey and you don't have a swords and they port your white for terminus for the rest of the game on upkeep.
Idk what type of hands you're keeping or how you're playing out your lands if you think that Goblins is "horrible" game 1.

[sdematt]

Sure, you can Terminus them, but have fun with Ringleader. There are many times Goblins can run over you, even if you have sweepers. This isn't to say it's 85% disfavourable, but it's certainly not 60% in Miracles' favour.

-Matt

[phazonmutant]

Actively bad:

12post, BUG decks, Goblins

Unfavorable:

BGx decks (Jund, Junk, etc), Merfolk, Hoogland Loam

My personal thoughts, I know others may disagree on some of them. The best way I can describe it is we are soft to certain cards / strategies - Liliana, Cavern of Souls, Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, raw CA (Goblin Ringleader, Cascade dudes, Confidant)

How much of your matchup analysis is unique to the RiP-Helm list? It looked like Adryan wanted to play a more traditional aggro-control list, so would that make the BG/x decks more favorable because you have fewer random permanents to get Abrupt Decayed, or worse because you don't have RiPs?

I did a little playtesting with a sweet list that I got from a friend and wanted to share. He did pretty decently at SCG Nashville about a month ago and has been doing well at locals, but I'm not sure that it's actually...you know...good. It's pretty much a hybrid of Miracles, Blade Control, and Caw Cartel. I got the list secondhand, so I'm not 100% sure on numbers (and he probably made them up anyway).
Caw Cartel 2.0:
// Spells - 41
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Squadron Hawk
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Counterspell
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Detention Sphere
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Scuptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will

// Lands - 20
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Plains
1 Karakas
6 Island

// Sideboard
2 Meddling Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
3 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Supreme Verdict

I vaguely remember him saying Elspeth was underwhelming, Clique was great, and that he had a second Batterskull main that was amazing.
So this build seems to have a much easier time beating the Maverick and GB decks because it attacks from more angles and Counterbalance isn't even very good in those matchups. I'd have to imagine the combo decks are rougher, but hatebears + Force can get there. The sweetest thing was recycling Squadron Hawks with Terminus - he said that he's searched out 9 hawks in a game before.

[Kl'rt]

I disagree, I find goblins to be favorable for us. I am not sure why you think it's bad? All you really need is to blow them out with a terminus and set up angels.
You have a bunch of 1-for-1 removal spells and brainstorms/tops to find everything you need G1.
The only way you lose is if they go T1 lackey and you don't have a swords and they port your white for terminus for the rest of the game on upkeep.
Idk what type of hands you're keeping or how you're playing out your lands if you think that Goblins is "horrible" game 1.

Please see: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s...-Miracles.html

Maybe you're not playing against experienced Goblins players? In one of these games, BBD Terminus'd Todd like three times, and Todd still had enough CA to win that game.

[sauce]

Please see: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s...-Miracles.html

Maybe you're not playing against experienced Goblins players? In one of these games, BBD Terminus'd Todd like three times, and Todd still had enough CA to win that game.

that's a SFM list. I never played SFM miracles, so it may be bad for that miracles deck... I never had problems w/ them playing UWr miracles, UWr RIP and UWr Punishing Fires

[Kl'rt]

that's a SFM list. I never played SFM miracles, so it may be bad for that miracles deck... I never had problems w/ them playing UWr miracles, UWr RIP and UWr Punishing Fires

Well, seems like a lot of the experienced players, Joe Lossett included, feels Goblins has at least a small advantage over Miracles.

From one of Carsten Kotter's articles: "There is basically no deck that beats up on U/W Miracles like Goblins. Cavern of Souls Aether Vial and the Ringleader/Matron draw engine make sure you never run out of steam while they will at some point end up without a Terminus. The heavy creature presence makes sure they can't Jace you successfully. The only way the U/W deck will take a game is by hitting a big Entreat early enough which doesn't happen regularly especially against Ports and Wastelands."

But if you're smashing Goblins all the time, then good for you.

[sauce]

Well, seems like a lot of the experienced players, Joe Lossett included, feels Goblins has at least a small advantage over Miracles.

From one of Carsten Kotter's articles: "There is basically no deck that beats up on U/W Miracles like Goblins. Cavern of Souls Aether Vial and the Ringleader/Matron draw engine make sure you never run out of steam while they will at some point end up without a Terminus. The heavy creature presence makes sure they can't Jace you successfully. The only way the U/W deck will take a game is by hitting a big Entreat early enough which doesn't happen regularly especially against Ports and Wastelands."

But if you're smashing Goblins all the time, then good for you.

exactly, goblins cannot beat entreat for 3 let alone a bigger one.
also, you have 7 removal spells main deck (3 terminus 4 stp) that help you set it up.
of course it's possible to run into the nuts and lose, like t1 cavern -> lackey and you have no stp or way to set up terminus fast enough.

[KZhang]

Well, seems like a lot of the experienced players, Joe Lossett included, feels Goblins has at least a small advantage over Miracles.

From one of Carsten Kotter's articles: "There is basically no deck that beats up on U/W Miracles like Goblins. Cavern of Souls Aether Vial and the Ringleader/Matron draw engine make sure you never run out of steam while they will at some point end up without a Terminus. The heavy creature presence makes sure they can't Jace you successfully. The only way the U/W deck will take a game is by hitting a big Entreat early enough which doesn't happen regularly especially against Ports and Wastelands."

But if you're smashing Goblins all the time, then good for you.

Personally, i would face Goblins all day rather than Cloudpost decks.

I'm also actually seem to be having a harder time against Jund compared to goblins.

PS: i'm running the RIP version, with 1x Baneslayer in sb.

[oarsman]

This just happened in an online 2man, so it isn't anything significant, but I thought it was so cool that I wanted to share it.


Game 3 against ANT with Past in Flames

Going first, I mull into 4 land (including Karakas), Top, Venser. I am not thrilled but I keep.
I play Top and he starts with Ponder off Gemstone Mine.
I play a fetch and on his turn he does the same. My Top shows a Counterbalance.
I untap for turn 3 and play the enchantment, leaving up a fetchland, knowing my top two cards are both land.
He Brainstorms with the Gemstone Mine in response. So I know he doesn't have Decay yet. Then he breaks his fetch.
He passes his turn 3 with no play, and I realize this is going to be AWESOME. Obviously he is going to Decay the Counterbalance at the end of my turn, and then untap and try to kill me, a task at which he would likely succeed.
My fourth turn I draw one of the fetchlands and play it. My hand is Venser, Karakas, and maybe something else that is not relevant.
End of turn, he casts the Decay, exhausting the Gemstone. I fetch, and Venser the Abrupt Decay back to his hand.
He did not draw (or shuffled away) his third land, so he passes on his one land and discards, knowing that any one mana spell will get countered by the Top/Counterbalance.
I untap and play Karakas, reset Venser, and bounce his land. He is now drawing to Lotus Petal only, and even if he hits it and there isn't a land on top of my deck, the best he can still do is mainphase Decay and pass.

He draws and concedes.