Well consider me an idiot for at least trying to test out EtW instead of Ad Nauseum. Yes there are situations where AN is preferable. However in combo mirrors, if you have the mana to cast an early Ad Nauseum, you probably have the mana to just finish the job with PiF.Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
I have, I've played Burning ANT in at least one SCG Open (like a year ago). I've also seen a couple friends play it at my local store. I mean, obviously we have a different opinion on the deck, but I'm not coming out of nowhere with this.
As far as blue decks with discard, I'm really not sure how any of ANT, TNT or TES are uniquely equipped to deal with that.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
This is just not true, a lot of hands with either based on LED or just all one color mana can't ever use PIF.
The biggest draw is the ability to play Dark Confidant, easily my favorite SB card. The more powerful ritual, more stable manabase and maindeck PIF all help me go off with fewer cards in hand and play a longer game than a deck playing 12 lands and chrome mox.
Sure the cases where you have only artifact mana or only rituals with no red source requires the use of Ad Nauseum if you need to go off immediately. But with 12 'trips and multiple fetches, is this that frequent a case?
I try to avoid casting ad nauseam but it is way to powerful of a tool to not include. Empty is simply weak in this deck, I only put it in my SB to hedge against things like leyline. We usually want to sculpt for a few turns and then go for a hard kill, if you want to empty on turn one play TES.
Also having only one storm engine, especially one based on the graveyard, in the main deck seems loose.
Absolutely have to agree with everything you just said.
davelin, If you look in my signature, there's a link to an excel worksheet for storm that will help you get a feel for how many cards you can typically draw off of Ad Nauseam given a certain life total. Of course there's no substitute for playtesting, but I thought it was kinda neat to see numerically the differences between the builds as far as Ad Nauseam is concerned.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I think I'm going to add SAINT to the sheet just for laughs when i get home from work
Right, I've been away from this forum for quite some time, but it doesn't seem like anything has changed considering any form of ad nauseam kind of decks
Thanks for the link! I'm also primarily interested in things like for each decklist how to they perform in speed, consistency and resiliency. I'm currently in the midst of goldfishing Prosak-ANT at least 100 times to collect some data on this. I'll share my results if anyone is interested.
I do not doubt that Prosak's ANT is good. It had a lot of Top8. But I don't get the rainbow lands and the 6 discard spells.
Wouldn't it be more benificial to cut one Gemstone Mine for another Scalding Tarn, which would make cantrips better? I don't like these rainbow lands except for their use in TES and Dredge. You can't fetch them and they are not Wasteland-proof. In most of the cases I am playing against wasteland, I fetch for the needed mana in my comboturn. This is not possible with Gemstone Mine. To get similar effects I need it on my hand and I will need guaranteed landdrops before.
I would cut the second Gemstone Mine entirely for more discard, using 4 Cabal Therapy and 3 Duress, with the 4th Duress in my sb. In my opinion seven discard spells is the right number most of the time. I like the 4th Therapy over the 4th Duress, because you have more targets with the Therapy. With 4 Probes and 3 Duress you will have almost always the information to hit with your Therapies.
Greetings Mindlash
Edit: 14 Lands was enough for me with the full amount of cantrips at hand. With Tropical Island I have a 15th land in my sb.
"I came into this world covered in someone else's blood and screaming, I'd like to leave it the same way."
Good is not the word I would use for Prosak's list, I'd probably go with sub-optimal.
Well ok...it performed well / good was what I meant :-)
I like the version I play a lot more :-P
I am interested what people think about the slight tweaks that I posted.
I can post the list with sideboard if that helps...but sideboards are often too metadependant :)
Greetings Mindlash
"I came into this world covered in someone else's blood and screaming, I'd like to leave it the same way."
Jay_Gatz, in what matchups do you find yourself SBing in the Confidants? I'm guessing more grindy, mid-rangy matchups?
Bob is so much worse than it used to be. The matchups where you are boarding it in still have Jaces, and if your plan is to grind out the game for a few turns, then you just lose. I tested this endlessly with an Esper player, and it was just not good.
In response to the Empty the Warrens comments: obviously TES can Empty better, but it's not your main engine if you are playing it in this deck. There are many matchups and situations where you can make Goblins turn 1 or 2 but you will lose the grindy game if you try going for the Tendrils plan. It gives the deck more options in these tough situations. Also, just because TES can do something better doesn't mean that you can't play it as a secondary win-con. Your Ad Nauseams are exactly the same. TES can Ad Nauseam better, so why play them? This is a Past in Flames deck, and the debate between Ad Nauseam and Empty is reasonable. Also, If you opt for Empty over AN, it affects more than only those 2 lines; for example, I imagine most AN players don't run 2 Grim Tutors, correct? Well already the Empty list with 2 Grim Tutors is more effective at the Past in Flames kill. When I played AN I would use it once in a 15-round GP, as you rarely NEED to go for this variance-based win-con when you have Past in Flames in the deck. Prosak said the exact same thing. He usually only uses AN once in an entire tournament. I think you are doing it wrong if you are relying on AN often...
Is jace supposed to be good against Bob? I feel like you are playing the matchup wrong.
Yes you will unnecessarily lose many games to otherwise irrelevant slow cards like Jace if you board in Dark Confidants. If they aren't trumping your Bob with something more relevant to the game, then you will easily win anyways. Believe me, I remember when Dark Confidant used to be a great SB plan in Storm. Times have changed.
Maybe it depends on what shell of ANT you're running? Case in point I've played about 10 or so games with Burning ANT after over a hundred with Prosak-ANT. Granted I'll admit I'm still learning the deck but here are my general observations -
- Burning ANT seems to be more grindy and built for the longer game. Yes it obviously can win early as well but the 4 Preordains in Prosak-ANT makes a big different IMO. Smoother draws, easier mana requirements, etc. With Prosak I can reliably PiF -> Tendrils around turn 4-5
- Re: mana requirements. Burning ANT now requires red to be available earlier than usual. Yes all of the fetches can be used to get red mana, but blue and black is required first and it's very possible to get choked off
- Burning ANT is more resilient since it doesn't auto-lose pre-SB to cards like Teeg or even Thalia.
Just some general observations. I'm hoping I can combine some of two and come up with something as consistent as Prosak but as resilient as Burning without sacrificing too much speed.
Playing preordain instead of action spells doesn't increase the speed of the deck at all.
I respectively disagree. ANT can easily go off turn 2 or 3 with a combination of rits, artifact mana and an infernal tutor and additional cantrips helps immensely getting there. Burning Wish cannot dig or replace one of these parts, the best it can achieve is generate 10-12 goblin tokens.
Say it's turn three and you have Infernal Tutor, 2 rits, 2 petals and two lands in play. The game is over, you've won. Replace any of these instead with Burning wish and you can only just EtW for a bunch. Again maybe it's my unfamiliarity with the deck but I don't see how it's just as fast as Prosak-ANT and more resilient at the same time.
I didn't replace any of the core cards in the deck with wishes. I opted not to play the redundant and subpar cantrip that is preordain.
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