[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[Gruel]

Has anyone tried Academy Ruins in place of a Wasteland? I haven't... but just thinking about it. Mid-game becomes better with brainstorms becoming stronger with access to Shardless Agent in graveyard - brainstorm into an Ancestral Visions and a couple lands? - Agent on top seems pretty strong.... and baleful strix is sometimes a good target as well. Post Sideboard you also have access to P.Revoker and/or Nihil Spellbomb depending what your board looks like. Wondering about other opinions.

[Darkness]

Baleful Strix goes out of course. Against many combo decks abrupt decay has its uses and should stay in as a 2-3of.
Show variants have defense grid.
Storm has confidant/carpet of flowers/xantid swarm or LEDs they want to protect from discard.
Reanimate has animate dead

Vs. combo tapping out for shardless agent is only viable if you set-it up to hit discard. But then again you could just cast this discard and kill without a 2/2.... Random cascades gets worse of the hate sided in like surgical, flusterstorm, golgari charm,... Best plan vs. combo is to
side out agent.

The problem with siding out Shardless Agent is you're lowering you threat density. Baleful Strix is only useful against SnS combo, assuming thats not the deck you're facing and you take out Agent and Strix, you're left with only DRS and Goyfs (unless you have some SB hate to bring in i.e. V. Clique). Against faster combo decks, Storm Combo, Elves, SnS esc, I take out Decays, A Vision, and possibly Jaces. Visions, as powerful as it is, is too slow. I'd rather have a card that is good against said fast opponent, than drawing three and hoping to hit something I need. Against slower combo decks, High Tide, 12 Post, Enchantress, I try to leave it in due to the natural grind of the games and the additional cards I need. I've lived through the scenarios of having a DRS as my sole clock against a combo deck due to our naturally low threat count, and it keeps you on edge. The thought of boarding out Agent for combo seems very poor. I do respect the points brought up on why you don't want it due to random cascades, I just don't think the deck can clock a fast combo deck properly without them.

[Adryan]

The problem with siding out Shardless Agent is you're lowering you threat density. Baleful Strix is only useful against SnS combo, assuming thats not the deck you're facing and you take out Agent and Strix, you're left with only DRS and Goyfs (unless you have some SB hate to bring in i.e. V. Clique). Against faster combo decks, Storm Combo, Elves, SnS esc, I take out Decays, A Vision, and possibly Jaces. Visions, as powerful as it is, is too slow. I'd rather have a card that is good against said fast opponent, than drawing three and hoping to hit something I need. Against slower combo decks, High Tide, 12 Post, Enchantress, I try to leave it in due to the natural grind of the games and the additional cards I need. I've lived through the scenarios of having a DRS as my sole clock against a combo deck due to our naturally low threat count, and it keeps you on edge. The thought of boarding out Agent for combo seems very poor. I do respect the points brought up on why you don't want it due to random cascades, I just don't think the deck can clock a fast combo deck properly without them.

Let's not forget that T1 Ancestral Vision is a brutal clock when we have Flusterstorm/Discard etc. and with 2 Vendillion Clique in the SB our creature count is 12, which is high enough. I wouldn't consider Baleful Strix as a good or useful card against SnS because the majority of the time it does nothing. Blocking Griselbrand or Emrakul is not that nice, because they still draw a bunch of cards or destroy almost everything.

[yaWgnorW]

Has anyone tried Academy Ruins in place of a Wasteland? I haven't... but just thinking about it. Mid-game becomes better with brainstorms becoming stronger with access to Shardless Agent in graveyard - brainstorm into an Ancestral Visions and a couple lands? - Agent on top seems pretty strong.... and baleful strix is sometimes a good target as well. Post Sideboard you also have access to P.Revoker and/or Nihil Spellbomb depending what your board looks like. Wondering about other opinions.

This is actually an interesting idea. It would of course have to be a 1 of, so I'm assuming as you said, -1 Wasteland from the normal 2 would be the best. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? I think at the end of an opponents turn, you make yourself top deck an answer, cascading into something else, has great potential.

Let's not forget that T1 Ancestral Vision is a brutal clock when we have Flusterstorm/Discard etc. and with 2 Vendillion Clique in the SB our creature count is 12, which is high enough. I wouldn't consider Baleful Strix as a good or useful card against SnS because the majority of the time it does nothing. Blocking Griselbrand or Emrakul is not that nice, because they still draw a bunch of cards or destroy almost everything.

Of the last few posts regarding sideboarding vs combo I agree with this the most. Baleful Strix at best only stops an attack from Griselbrand. It does not stop Emrakul post annihilator, and I know if I had Gbrand on the field, I would just use his card advantage before attacking. Personally, I'd drop Jace for Sower of Temptation, Abrupt Decay for the additional hand disruption, and whatever else may be neccesary. Basically, I take the slowest thing, or the most pointless thing. I agree with keeping Avision, disagree with keep Strix, 1 card, 1 turn, will likely not save us.

[Ennel_Pat]

This is actually an interesting idea. It would of course have to be a 1 of, so I'm assuming as you said, -1 Wasteland from the normal 2 would be the best. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? I think at the end of an opponents turn, you make yourself top deck an answer, cascading into something else, has great potential

I started playing a 1-off Academy Ruins since I started playing 3x Baleful Strix. I also want to test this and compare it to volrath stronghold.

[Valarne]

I haven't been reading the thread I will admit, and actually find Shardless BUG to be a bit too clunky and unimpressive. Nevertheless, I wanted to try it out for myself - better than to rely on prejudice. With that info, you can consider whatever else I have to say in that regard - from an outsider to the deck.

My first thought was that planeswalkers are overkill, when Agent, Visions and Strix already deliver plenty of CA. Seeing that one of my prime critiques of the deck is clunkyness, I feel fine cutting Jace and Lili.

Yesterday I put together a list and ran it at the local legacy tournament - 35 people in average. The durdleness of the deck was quite awesome against other durdle.decks - I met two loam decks and a pox variant. That aside, my few thought that you might be interested in:

Academy Ruins was the mvp "luxury" slot in the deck, no question. If I run BUG again, I would try 2 (23 land). Lategame it's almost unbeatable against fair decks. I played 1 Explosives, 3 Strix and 4 Agents main. SB Nihil Spellbomb.
4 Force is a must - we draw so many cards, so who cares about carddisadvantage!
I did'nt miss planeswalkers against the fair decks, and were happy not to draw them against unfair. I sideboarded Lili, and when I had it against OmniTell it dawned on me, that it is pretty bad even in this matchup. Explanation: If we build our deck heavily skewed towards discard, then their potential Leyline wreck us. If we mix Pierces, FoW and discard, then Lili +1 is actively bad for us pretty often.

Cheers, Tue

[Adryan]

My first thought was that planeswalkers are overkill, when Agent, Visions and Strix already deliver plenty of CA. Seeing that one of my prime critiques of the deck is clunkyness, I feel fine cutting Jace and Lili.

Cheers, Tue

Sorry but that's just stupid. Jace is necessary against Esper, Miracles, the mirror etc. to provide a different angle of attack.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Sorry but that's just stupid. Jace is necessary against Esper, Miracles, the mirror etc. to provide a different angle of attack.

I concur with Adryan. Jace and Liliana go a long way against other grindy fair decks. For example, yesterday I was testing with one of my Magic Buddies, who plays UWr Miracles. He was able to land his Jace first, but then I drew into a Liliana and played it. (Note: We were playing with the new Legend Rules since we were testing for the next SCG Invitational.) In that game I'd say Liliana (more than Jace, which I got play a few turns after playing Liliana) really overperformed. My buddy ended up winning the game, but it wasn't until he was able to shut down my Liliana a second time (first time was with a D-Sphere but I Abrupt Decayed it) with Pithing Needle that he was able to close out the game. He also had to sacrifice a Clique basically to prevent my Liliana from ultimating.

The other thing that makes Jace particularly good in this deck is how he can help you set up Cascades with his brainstorm ability. In general, I often find myself sandbagging my Shardless Agent until I can setup a cascade. I only play into blind cascades in specific situations, like if I'm getting to behind on board presence.

With all that said though, the planeswalkers can be clunky in certain MU's so I do side them out on occasion. However, I feel Jace and (maybe) Liliana are to important for what the deck is trying to do to completely cut them from the MD.

[yaWgnorW]

I started playing a 1-off Academy Ruins since I started playing 3x Baleful Strix. I also want to test this and compare it to volrath stronghold.

For some reason I hadn't thought about Volrath Stronghold compared to Academy Ruins. I mean, ruins targets Strix and Agent, whereas Stronghold targets everything, for the same cost. The HUGE bonus target with Stronghold would be Goyf. What have you found in testing either so far?

I haven't been reading the thread I will admit, and actually find Shardless BUG to be a bit too clunky and unimpressive. Nevertheless, I wanted to try it out for myself - better than to rely on prejudice. With that info, you can consider whatever else I have to say in that regard - from an outsider to the deck.

My first thought was that planeswalkers are overkill, when Agent, Visions and Strix already deliver plenty of CA. Seeing that one of my prime critiques of the deck is clunkyness, I feel fine cutting Jace and Lili.

Yesterday I put together a list and ran it at the local legacy tournament - 35 people in average. The durdleness of the deck was quite awesome against other durdle.decks - I met two loam decks and a pox variant. That aside, my few thought that you might be interested in:

Academy Ruins was the mvp "luxury" slot in the deck, no question. If I run BUG again, I would try 2 (23 land). Lategame it's almost unbeatable against fair decks. I played 1 Explosives, 3 Strix and 4 Agents main. SB Nihil Spellbomb.
4 Force is a must - we draw so many cards, so who cares about carddisadvantage!
I did'nt miss planeswalkers against the fair decks, and were happy not to draw them against unfair. I sideboarded Lili, and when I had it against OmniTell it dawned on me, that it is pretty bad even in this matchup. Explanation: If we build our deck heavily skewed towards discard, then their potential Leyline wreck us. If we mix Pierces, FoW and discard, then Lili +1 is actively bad for us pretty often.

Cheers, Tue

I appreciate the more 3rd party look to be honest. I'm a bit surprised that you say Jace isn't needed...but I see where your coming from. I think 3x Jace is ideal, however I do NOT run Lilanna in my main deck (2 in the side). I don't like having to many 3cc+ cards other than Agent, and with 3x Jace and 3x FoW (1 in the side) I found that to be enough. I'm glad your positive on the Academy Ruins part. Would you suggest Volrath's Stronghold is superior to Academy Ruin's or not?

[mike1987]

What do you guys think of this list? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=81208

Playing 21 lands with 2 basics seems a bit too little for me. But I kinda dig their mainboard with 2 Jace and 2 Lilianas

[yaWgnorW]

What do you guys think of this list? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=81208

Playing 21 lands with 2 basics seems a bit too little for me. But I kinda dig their mainboard with 2 Jace and 2 Lilianas

Ya...this is my list for the most part. The difference, I run 3 Jaces and no Liliannas in the main, and it has 21 lands. I'm set on 22 lands.

[Valarne]

@Yawgnor: Yeah Volraths Stronghold resurrect Goyf, so unless the pilot is running Explosives, it should be strictly better considering the mainboard. It changes considering the sideboard however. Maybe recurring Nihil Spellbomb and Explosives is unnecessary, but it sure sounds nice. Besides that, Goyf is often plowed, while Agent and Strix often die in combat or to Bolts.

[yaWgnorW]

@Yawgnor: Yeah Volraths Stronghold resurrect Goyf, so unless the pilot is running Explosives, it should be strictly better considering the mainboard. It changes considering the sideboard however. Maybe recurring Nihil Spellbomb and Explosives is unnecessary, but it sure sounds nice. Besides that, Goyf is often plowed, while Agent and Strix often die in combat or to Bolts.

Yes well said. I mean, the 3 options with Academy Ruins is setup the blind cascade, put something their to cascade into, or just put some body there for whatever you need (strix). Stronghold does all that, but it is the sideboard that I think puts this card (Academy Ruins) over the top. While I don't think I like Engineered Explosives in our deck, its quite nice having access to it again and again.

[StefN]

To be honest. All this AcademyR. / Stronghold debate. I'm not sure if this deck really needs one of these cards. I mean I tried it for about 40 games (not that much I know).
The first point is that the mana base is allready so greedy that we only can switch Wastelands for one of these lands, and this is basically the point. How often is Ruins/Stronghold better then a Wasteland?? Of cource we can have absurd games in theory with Agent and Strix if we can recur them, but in my opinion most of the times a Wasteland is better. We have so much card advantage and such a high card quality in this deck, that I'm not concerned about the late game (where Ruins/Strongh. gets strong), but I'm more concerned about the first turns (Where these two lands basically does nothing).

[yaWgnorW]

To be honest. All this AcademyR. / Stronghold debate. I'm not sure if this deck really needs one of these cards. I mean I tried it for about 40 games (not that much I know).
The first point is that the mana base is allready so greedy that we only can switch Wastelands for one of these lands, and this is basically the point. How often is Ruins/Stronghold better then a Wasteland?? Of cource we can have absurd games in theory with Agent and Strix if we can recur them, but in my opinion most of the times a Wasteland is better. We have so much card advantage and such a high card quality in this deck, that I'm not concerned about the late game (where Ruins/Strongh. gets strong), but I'm more concerned about the first turns (Where these two lands basically does nothing).

Still 40 games is significant, not enough but significant. How often did you find that the Ruin/stronghold hurt you vs having Wasteland early? And how often did the land actually change the course of a game with grabbing that Shardless or Strix?

I've had about 20 games, so much less. Nothing really relevant to support anything, other than that of course there are times where I wish that Wasteland was Ruins or Ruins was Wasteland.

[Ennel_Pat]

The first point is that the mana base is allready so greedy that we only can switch Wastelands for one of these lands, and this is basically the point.

I think there is enough space for utility lands like volrath's stronghold or academy ruins. I think 23 lands is a more solid manabase when playing 3 or more Mind Sculptor's.

My manabase is:
7 Duals (4x Underground Sea, 2x Tropical Island, 1x Bayou)
9 Fetch (4x Misty Rainforest, 4x Verdant Catacombs, 1x Polluted Delta)
6 Utility (4x Wasteland, 1x Creeping Tar Pit, 1x Academy Ruins)
1 Basic (Swamp)

Maybe the swamp could be an Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth as well.

[somethingdotdotdot]

So I just split top 4 at the mtgdeals open earlier today with a bit of an unorthodox list. I started with lejay's list, but I felt that the strix's were just underwhelming and a bit durdily versus all of the midrange and combo decks floating around. This is the list that I ended up playing:

14 Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
2x Tombstalker

16 Instants/Sorceries:
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay

7 Planeswalkers:
3x Jace, the Mindsculptor
4x Liliana of the Veil

23 Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
1x Badlands
3x Wasteland
1x Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
3x Whipflare
2x Golgari Charm
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Vendiliion Clique
3x Thoughtseize
2x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce

As you can see, I ended up cutting the three strix's for 2 tombstalkers and the fourth underground sea. My reasoning behind this was that stalker basically did everything I wanted strix to do, but it also provided a very quick and hard to deal with clock. Versus delver decks, its better than strix (from goldfishing, didn't face any delver all day) since it provides a 5/5 flying wall that delver can't get through. A strix will just trade with 1 delver and the second one will continue to reek havoc on you; with stalker, they need to have the 2x delvers and a burn spell to do that. Vs the BUG version, they have no maindeck outs to stalker other than their own stalker (which is conveniently handled by the 4 lilianas).

In mid-range matchups such as jund or the mirror, the opponent is hard pressed to find an answer to stalker since most decks only run 2-3 lilis, 1pulse, and 2-3 jaces. Versus decks like deathblade or miracles, its a threat that demands that they have the removal, while they can just let strix swing in unharassed until they stabilize.

The other unusual part of my list are the 1 mana counters in the board. After trading the strix's for stalkers,I found that the deck's worst card versus non-creature based combo (snt, storm, etc) was shardless agent. Its a 3 mana 2/2 that often grabs a deathrite or brainstorm at sorcery speed. I found that the card advantage she provided in these matchups was not worth the variance. By siding out 4 shardlesses, along with 1-2 visions I found that i needed to cut discard for blue spells to keep my blue count high enough for fow. I cut revoker since I thought I would face more omni decks throughout the day (where revoker would've been completely useless). After playing the event, I think cutting the revokers was the correct move since its only really good in the sneak and show matchup, and only some of the time. I think the flusterstorms and spell pierces were better in those slots. Furthermore, the format is so heavily saturated with discard spells that decks like sneak and omni are running their own leylines to completely shut down opposing discard; this diversification in combo hate made my combo matchups a lot better.

I ended up playing against 2 sneak show decks (1 loss, 1 win), 1 elves (win) and tes (win) over the course of the day. Despite my many blunders (first time piloting shardless bug in a tournament) the deck was able to give me enough raw power to get through.

[Dragonslayer_90]

So I just split top 4 at the mtgdeals open earlier today with a bit of an unorthodox list. I started with lejay's list, but I felt that the strix's were just underwhelming and a bit durdily versus all of the midrange and combo decks floating around. This is the list that I ended up playing:

14 Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
2x Tombstalker

16 Instants/Sorceries:
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay

7 Planeswalkers:
3x Jace, the Mindsculptor
4x Liliana of the Veil

23 Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
1x Badlands
3x Wasteland
1x Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
3x Whipflare
2x Golgari Charm
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Vendiliion Clique
3x Thoughtseize
2x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce

As you can see, I ended up cutting the three strix's for 2 tombstalkers and the fourth underground sea. My reasoning behind this was that stalker basically did everything I wanted strix to do, but it also provided a very quick and hard to deal with clock. Versus delver decks, its better than strix (from goldfishing, didn't face any delver all day) since it provides a 5/5 flying wall that delver can't get through. A strix will just trade with 1 delver and the second one will continue to reek havoc on you; with stalker, they need to have the 2x delvers and a burn spell to do that. Vs the BUG version, they have no maindeck outs to stalker other than their own stalker (which is conveniently handled by the 4 lilianas).

In mid-range matchups such as jund or the mirror, the opponent is hard pressed to find an answer to stalker since most decks only run 2-3 lilis, 1pulse, and 2-3 jaces. Versus decks like deathblade or miracles, its a threat that demands that they have the removal, while they can just let strix swing in unharassed until they stabilize.

The other unusual part of my list are the 1 mana counters in the board. After trading the strix's for stalkers,I found that the deck's worst card versus non-creature based combo (snt, storm, etc) was shardless agent. Its a 3 mana 2/2 that often grabs a deathrite or brainstorm at sorcery speed. I found that the card advantage she provided in these matchups was not worth the variance. By siding out 4 shardlesses, along with 1-2 visions I found that i needed to cut discard for blue spells to keep my blue count high enough for fow. I cut revoker since I thought I would face more omni decks throughout the day (where revoker would've been completely useless). After playing the event, I think cutting the revokers was the correct move since its only really good in the sneak and show matchup, and only some of the time. I think the flusterstorms and spell pierces were better in those slots. Furthermore, the format is so heavily saturated with discard spells that decks like sneak and omni are running their own leylines to completely shut down opposing discard; this diversification in combo hate made my combo matchups a lot better.

I ended up playing against 2 sneak show decks (1 loss, 1 win), 1 elves (win) and tes (win) over the course of the day. Despite my many blunders (first time piloting shardless bug in a tournament) the deck was able to give me enough raw power to get through.

THANK YOU FOR POSTING. I was kind of at a loss with the deck this weekend. Enough at least to switch to BUG Delver last minute yesterday to try that instead at my LGS's Legacy Tournament. A problem I noticed with Shardless BUG is sometimes is you really have to lean on Tarmogoyf to close out the game, and I'm sure you know that doesn't always work.

With all that said, I was toying around with playing Tombstalker in my mind in Shardless BUG yesterday. I thought to myself if BUG Delver isn't worried about playing Tombstalker with Tarmogoyf and Deathrite, why aren't we playing some? I like how he adds another quick clock and can't be shrinked like Goyf.

I will definitely have to test this, and get my hands on another Tombstalker.

[_Fortune_]

So I just split top 4 at the mtgdeals open earlier today with a bit of an unorthodox list. I started with lejay's list, but I felt that the strix's were just underwhelming and a bit durdily versus all of the midrange and combo decks floating around.
As you can see, I ended up cutting the three strix's for 2 tombstalkers and the fourth underground sea. My reasoning behind this was that stalker basically did everything I wanted strix to do, but it also provided a very quick and hard to deal with clock. Versus delver decks, its better than strix (from goldfishing, didn't face any delver all day) since it provides a 5/5 flying wall that delver can't get through. A strix will just trade with 1 delver and the second one will continue to reek havoc on you; with stalker, they need to have the 2x delvers and a burn spell to do that. Vs the BUG version, they have no maindeck outs to stalker other than their own stalker (which is conveniently handled by the 4 lilianas).

In mid-range matchups such as jund or the mirror, the opponent is hard pressed to find an answer to stalker since most decks only run 2-3 lilis, 1pulse, and 2-3 jaces. Versus decks like deathblade or miracles, its a threat that demands that they have the removal, while they can just let strix swing in unharassed until they stabilize.

The other unusual part of my list are the 1 mana counters in the board. After trading the strix's for stalkers,I found that the deck's worst card versus non-creature based combo (snt, storm, etc) was shardless agent. Its a 3 mana 2/2 that often grabs a deathrite or brainstorm at sorcery speed. I found that the card advantage she provided in these matchups was not worth the variance. By siding out 4 shardlesses, along with 1-2 visions I found that i needed to cut discard for blue spells to keep my blue count high enough for fow. I cut revoker since I thought I would face more omni decks throughout the day (where revoker would've been completely useless). After playing the event, I think cutting the revokers was the correct move since its only really good in the sneak and show matchup, and only some of the time. I think the flusterstorms and spell pierces were better in those slots. Furthermore, the format is so heavily saturated with discard spells that decks like sneak and omni are running their own leylines to completely shut down opposing discard; this diversification in combo hate made my combo matchups a lot better.

I ended up playing against 2 sneak show decks (1 loss, 1 win), 1 elves (win) and tes (win) over the course of the day. Despite my many blunders (first time piloting shardless bug in a tournament) the deck was able to give me enough raw power to get through.

Congrats on the finish. I like the changes you made to the list, and am currently testing with your list with the following changes:

Maindeck:
-1 Tropical Island
+1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
-1 Spell Pierce
+1 Ancient Grudge

I've been loving grudge out of the board against Stone/Deathblade, and I wanted to cram one more shuffle effect into the deck (hitting mana-producing lands never seems to be a problem with 23 lands).

Thanks for posting and congrats again on the finish.

[lochlan]

Kevin Jennings 6th-place Shardless BUG list from today had a really, er, "interesting" addition to the sideboard: In the Eye of Chaos.

It doesn't look like this has been discussed in this thread or at MTGSalvation, so I think this is original tech. Does anybody have a clue what this is for? To fight storm very slowly? To get an edge against control match-ups? The only decks I'm aware of that ever ran this card were old Vintage Stax lists. It seems like a really weird choice to me in Legacy, but obviously the list was good enough to get a T8 finish in MA--maybe there's something to it?