I was his OmniTell opponent, recurring discard game 1 got me good.. Game 2 he did not keep any disruption but kept a t2 Geist hand, I just happened to have the nuts and kill him turn 2 after he tapped out. Game 3 I opened 3 Brainstorms and got my Show and Tell taken away with Thoughtseize, and then I floated a Dream Halls + Enter the Infinite on top of my library until I got to hardcast-Dream Halls mana. He didn't see the play of Wasting my fetch, I don't blame him. Meddling Mage was actually deadly if Dream Halls were named instead of Cunning Wish, I happened to remember his list the previous week and boarded in a Sapphire Charm and killed him after drawing my deck.Originally Posted by Lejay
I think I got a lot of free-wins due to this deck being somewhat "newer". And a BUG opponent mulling to Deathrite Shaman since I was on the draw 80% of my matches.
Stoneblade is still a scary deck to play against, I'm still not very confident about my game 1s against Stoneblade or BUG. Although permanent based hate is every combo player's nightmare. You must have an alternative plan against Leyline, experienced combo players will even mulligan until they see it because their opponent have no other relevant interactions. Running Ethersworn Canoist / Meddling Mage is an excellent part to start hating out combo, even Detention Sphere is somewhat hard to play against and flexible against other decks. Todd's deck was set-up even more fair than the older Deathblade decks, but dedicated powerful silver-bullets in the sideboard to hate out popular combo decks. Most newer storm player will straight up fold to a Meddling Mage / Ethersworn Canoist because they don't expect Stoneblade to bring in those cards in most cases.
Since counterspells seem very mediocore in the current meta against these "fair" decks, I suggest a mixture of heavy permanent-based hate in the sideboard for Stoneblade in the future.
You aren't bringing in counters against fair decks, so why does it matter if they are in the meta? The question is what is the best form of combo hate for your sideboard. I still think Flusterstorm is the strongest hate. It goes live from turn 1, you can flash it back with Snapcaster, and it is a must answer (for Storm at least). Canonist and Meddling Mage are both powerful, but less flexible. Each has their strengths against various combo decks, but if I am dedicating slots in my board to "combo," Flusterstorm is my go to.
Edit: It seems like one of the greatest strengths of Esper, Lingering Souls, has been largely negated by the amount of Deathrite Shamans running around. Anyone have any experience with a Blade list like this. It is basically just Esper with a playset of Deathrite Shamans added. I wanted to find a way to jam Wasteland into Esper and Deathrite works pretty well with that plan. The problem is that you are still going into 4 colors and adding colorless lands and his list is still running LS.
I was thinking something like this:
Creatures [13]
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
Artifacts [3]
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Engineered Explosives
Instants [13]
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
1x Counterspell
Sorceries [6]
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Ponder
Planeswalkers [3]
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands[23]
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Marsh Flats
3x Wasteland
1x Karakas
3x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
I cut the Lingering Souls for Ponder/4th Force because the blue count was pretty low. They could probably turn into something else (Vindicate, Supreme Verdict) but this is a starting place.
Flusterstorm is ironically marginal against storm because they generally either strip it from your hand before going off or silence you (depending on the storm variant). One way or another, it's rare to actually be able to fluster their tendrils, usually because the storm player punted.
It can be good at winning counter wars, though, and is maybe good against Omniclash since they'll rarely be able to pay (but may have Flusterstorms of their own). You could occassionally catch Hide Tide unaware as well, I suppose.
Alright, I can see Flusterstorm being a good argument for sure. But if the Omnitell player has Cunning Wish they can go get their own Flusterstorm. I really think the best form of hate against combo is permanent based hate. I actually enjoy playing blue decks over anything else. I absolutely hate playing Maverick / Junk decks game 2-3 because of the variety of hatebears they can bring in.
Discard and counterspells are a 1 for 1, if a slow-clock is applied, the combo player can rebuild quite quickly with a plan "B" combo or digging with many cantrips. Hatebears stop them cold from combo-ing if used correctly. Making them have that 1-2 card answer in their sideboard. If they don't have it, or you counter it, you win.. It's that simple. You don't really want to be playing a reactive game against a proactive combo deck in my opinion. Discard is proactive but unreliable due to Leyline. Hatebears provide a small clock and pretty much turns proactive side right back to you, where they have to react to your field. I'm not sure if 100% of that made sense, but I am absolutely devastated by an Ethersworn Canoist / Medding Mage / Thalia / Teeg, I don't want to even think about multiples.
I played several lists quite like that. I even tried Ancestral Vision. They all felt worse than being able to cast Dark Confidant.Anyone have any experience with a Blade list like this
This is riduclous. It's Spell Pierce vs Silence, and generally Force of Will for U against Ad Nauseam / Rest in Peace / Tutor / Wish. It does work against nearly every card in a Show and Tell player's deck.Flusterstorm is ironically marginal against storm because they generally either strip it from your hand before going off or silence you (depending on the storm variant). One way or another, it's rare to actually be able to fluster their tendrils, usually because the storm player punted.
My advice would be to use your cheap counters more aggressively against combo decks.
Hatebears are good, I'm not denying that, especially if they are Ethersworn Canonist or Thalia. However, hatebears are pretty miserable against Show and Tell. Teeg and Meddling Mage don't stop them, Thalia can be played around, and Canonist--while good--really only shines against the Omnishow lists. None of that makes them bad, however; in my mind, what makes them bad is the fact that S&T plays Force of Will. Non-blue decks have no choice but to just run them out there, but for blue decks, if it gets countered, the game is over because you don't have the mana to fight over the stack.
They can, but they'd have to get it before I cast my Flusterstorm, so they've already spent a turn wishing. Not sure if you're implying this or not, but don't wait for you S&T player to put an Omni into play before you try to stop them.Alright, I can see Flusterstorm being a good argument for sure. But if the Omnitell player has Cunning Wish they can go get their own Flusterstorm.
Malakai, you may want to reread Flusterstorm. It cannot counter Rest in Peace (legally.)
My 12 Post Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...Q65OWRL5my7utn
I played storm for years, literally. TES, FT, FDDT, late IGGY Pop and other varients (Spring Tide). Don't Flusterstorm their Tendrils. Hit their Enabler/Tutor. It's the best plan, especially since that's when they will most likely pop LED in response without passing priority. I use Stifles as well as Flusterstorms. It's pretty good. I attack their fetches with my Wastes and Stifles, it really hurts them. Stifle hits the Storm Trigger as we all know, but also helps in the S&T matchup. Stops a Sneak Attack activation, stops Annihilator, the Extra Turn if relevant, BOTH Top abilities, can foil CB flips, Demon activations (I hear paying 7 life to do nothing is horrible); good against Equipment lists (Stoneforge Mirror), Stoneforge itself on both counts, Planeswalker and DRS Activations, Wasteland and so, so much more it's good against I don't know why it's not played more often within this particular archetype. I haven't ever posted my list, and because of my...Underdeveloped Legacy Scene, my build is different than most of yours. Let me show you:
LAND-21
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
CREATURES-13
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Baleful Strix
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
SPELLS-26
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SIDEBOARD-15
4 Force of Will
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
*1 Rest in Peace (flex slot)
*1 Enlightened Tutor (flex slot)
1 Stifle
My sideboard is a bit weird, and I know a lot of you won't appreciate the Sided Forces. I play against a large amount of fair lists, and Daze actually does better game 1 within my meta. I side in Forces against the Stax and Stompy matchup I see here as well as the Ichorid, but I don't face control here at all. My list would be more standard than this if I were to go to a tourney, but as it stands, does anyone have any advice/changes/whatever for my list? I have been having major success with it at least in my tri-state region.
-ABC
I am pretty sure that a list that contains those cards together does not count as a Control-deck. This is more of a tempo-esperlist.
Wow, thank you for your input. Can i get some freakin' USEFUL discussion here?
-ABC
This deck is looking to go for the long game. While Daze and Stifle are great in the first couple turns, we're looking to go several turns beyond that, where they're not so useful. What does Daze hit when they have 4+ mana sources on board? What do you Stifle? A Jacestorm? Their fourth fetch?
With a decklist like this, you might be better off checking out the UW Tempo thread.
You just sent him to the place were brain cells go to die. The Las Vegas of The Source, if you will.
Question: How do we beat (MD at least) Punishing Fire? My question applies to the card in general, but most notably Jund since that's where it sees the most play. I mean, besides from overloading on Geists or somehow* managing to defend an early Germ, it seems to me that we get grossly overpowered by the card...
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
First, yes he did, and it is, and they did. They are still advocating the use of Delver, and imho that card, while *decent*, is too slow b/c of it's need to flip before being a threat, and is simply outclassed by Strix. My build has tempo build cards in it but plays like a control list. Honestly, just up this page of this thread someone said they wanted to "jam" 2 wastelands in their list. I did this, liked it, tested and changed my list until this is what it looks like. I assure you in most matches it fills the control role well. If you tossed Daze and added FoW to the MD, I hardly think that this list plays much different than more traditional lists. See, from the beginning of Blade Control, it's been a tempo-control build whether you want to admit it or not. It has changed some, but not enough to exclude a list such as mine from the discussion simply because of a couple of card choices that don't feel "controlling" enough for you.
By the way, this list can and does wreck entire mana-bases via throwing wasteland at a fetch, stifling said fetch when they pop in response, and then Surgical Extractioning the fetch. Love the synergies, not to mention Wasteland is a card that you should have a good reason NOT to run these days. Stifle which has always been since it's inception into the game, a rediculously versatile and cheap answer to so much. Then, there's the Surgicals, which are yard hate, free, and also wonderfully versatile (Beats Punishing Fire, BTW).
Anyway, I guess I'm happy enough with my build. I don't need help. This thread, that thread, it's all a bunch of nonsense that in the end doesn't really matter anyway. See ya in the Miracle Control Thread (the Real Control Thread). Can't wait for the next big Tournament in Denver.
-ABC
thing is that your list is stoneblade with some tempo elements. You want to destroy the opponent's manabase which tempo decks do outright better. To achieve this you include cards that are good early game but are bad for later game control. Daze doesn't seem good in this deck because it puts you back a landdrop while you want to get to jace as fast as possible.First, yes he did, and it is, and they did. They are still advocating the use of Delver, and imho that card, while *decent*, is too slow b/c of it's need to flip before being a threat, and is simply outclassed by Strix. My build has tempo build cards in it but plays like a control list. Honestly, just up this page of this thread someone said they wanted to "jam" 2 wastelands in their list. I did this, liked it, tested and changed my list until this is what it looks like. I assure you in most matches it fills the control role well. If you tossed Daze and added FoW to the MD, I hardly think that this list plays much different than more traditional lists. See, from the beginning of Blade Control, it's been a tempo-control build whether you want to admit it or not. It has changed some, but not enough to exclude a list such as mine from the discussion simply because of a couple of card choices that don't feel "controlling" enough for you.
By the way, this list can and does wreck entire mana-bases via throwing wasteland at a fetch, stifling said fetch when they pop in response, and then Surgical Extractioning the fetch. Love the synergies, not to mention Wasteland is a card that you should have a good reason NOT to run these days. Stifle which has always been since it's inception into the game, a rediculously versatile and cheap answer to so much. Then, there's the Surgicals, which are yard hate, free, and also wonderfully versatile (Beats Punishing Fire, BTW
Anyway, I guess I'm happy enough with my build. I don't need help. This thread, that thread, it's all a bunch of nonsense that in the end doesn't really matter anyway. See ya in the Miracle Control Thread (the Real Control Thread). Can't wait for the next big Tournament in Denver.
-ABC
If you want to deny people's resources, why don't you just play RUG or BUG tempo? it's the best deck for doing that. With your list you just don't have the pressure to make the denial relevant against most decks. So many decks in legacy can operate off 2-3 lands. If you want to deny them and then go into late game to draw more disruption which isn't relevant anymore that just seems bad to me.
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.Esper stoneblade
So you did not want input but a pat on the back and off to the races with the rest of the numbnuts on the SCG circuit. Gl hfFirst, yes he did, and it is, and they did. They are still advocating the use of Delver, and imho that card, while *decent*, is too slow b/c of it's need to flip before being a threat, and is simply outclassed by Strix. My build has tempo build cards in it but plays like a control list. Honestly, just up this page of this thread someone said they wanted to "jam" 2 wastelands in their list. I did this, liked it, tested and changed my list until this is what it not ks like. I assure you in most matches it fills the control role well. If you tossed Daze and added FoW to the MD, I hardly think that this list plays much different than more traditional lists. See, from the beginning of Blade Control, it's been a tempo-control build whether you want to admit it or not. It has changed some, but not enough to exclude a list such as mine from the discussion simply because of a couple of card choices that don't feel "controlling" enough for you.
By the way, this list can and does wreck entire mana-bases via throwing wasteland at a fetch, stifling said fetch when they pop in response, and then Surgical Extractioning the fetch. Love the synergies, not to mention Wasteland is a card that you should have a good reason NOT to run these days. Stifle which has always been since it's inception into the game, a rediculously versatile and cheap answer to so much. Then, there's the Surgicals, which are yard hate, free, and also wonderfully versatile (Beats Punishing Fire, BTW
Anyway, I guess I'm happy enough with my build. I don't need help. This thread, that thread, it's all a bunch of nonsense that in the end doesn't really matter anyway. See ya in the Miracle Control Thread (the Real Control Thread). Can't wait for the next big Tournament in Denver.
-ABC
Why is Deathblade rating Dark Confidant higher than his blue counterparts? (Vendilion Clique and Snapcaster Mage) Since when is Black better than Blue?!
Baneslayer Angel
a bullet renders all sizes equal
No, I wanted assistance, its just that a statement "x and y aren't control cards" doesn't seem useful. If you can construe it otherwise, props. Getting shipped off to another thread just because of those cards is even more rediculous. Seems it's all about which thread is which, not about how a list plays but rather how it is perceived, not the card choices for choice reasons, but card choices to separate lists into threads based on how it is perceived. That's why I don't want help. I'm going back to silence, at least on The Source. 100+ posts in and the only truly helpful person has been Drza, but that was in the Miracle Thread and a PM conversation. I wanted suggestions for my particular build, which has been created for my particular metagame. Jesus Tits.
Playing Strix over Delver is a huge reason to post here rather than there, referring back to the UW "Vegas Tempo" thread now. I hate Delver -THAT is a tempo card...
-ABC
Based on context I assume Malakai mistyped and was referring to Past In Flames, you know... the other win condition of the deck being discussed.Malakai, you may want to reread Flusterstorm. It cannot counter Rest in Peace (legally.)
TPDMC
Call me old fashioned but I still prefer playing the old stoneblade list instead of deathblade. Find it more stable mana-wise and a higher % win against combo. However my meta recently showed a lot of Canadian threshold and Jund. Both matchups are tough. Any inputs on how to shore up wins against those decks?
PS. I am using vidi's list.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...6&iddeck=78381
I told you why daze and stifle aren't good in stoneblade and why we aren't playing them. Those cards fit a completely different gameplan and that is what people meant with "these aren't control cards". They don't fit a control plan cause they get worse as the game goes on and try to achieve something completely different than what stoneblade wants to achieve. Daze is horrid in this deck. It's a tempo play but in this deck you lose too much tempo yourself. You stop their turn 2 play to stop yourself from playing geist on turn 3 or you stop yourself from being able to cast a jace. That is just bad. Stifle doesn't do enough, especially lategame except if you manage to stop a storm trigger or a jace. You mix agressive cards like geist stifle and daze with slower cntrol cards like jace and strix, that just makes little sense. I know dazing and stifling is awesome, and vindicating someone's basic land after that is even better but that doesn't mean it is good in this particular deck. You put yorself back a turn and you waste your cards on resources they will regain anyway by the time you can win.
Like i also said before, RUG's disruption in daze and stifle are good because they can operate on a very low land count and they have the necessary pressure to make their disruption relevant. If you plan on taking out the opponent's lands and then wait till you can ultimate jace your disruption is wasted. The only card in your list that can pressure the opponent is geist. besides him you have strix who just sits there till what, your opponent has come back up to par with you ? If you want to incorporate such cards, lower your curve, play more agressive cards like dark confidant, deathrite shaman,delver. Or play another deck altogether because at that point you aren't even close to stoneblade anymore.
cheers
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.
The best way to beat Punishing Jund is to have access to a combinaison of Rest in Peace, 2 drops (to avoid Liliana) in form of SFM or Strix and the end game boss Geist of Saint Traft.
Unfortunately, if you are playing the new version with Deathrite Shaman, you can't side in Rest in Peace so it's pretty hard to remove Punishing fire from the game but you should still be playing Relic or Spellbomb which are sometimes enough and a necessity against Life from the Loam). Moreover, the good point is that you are playing 2 or 3 Wasteland that you should keep to destroy Grove of Burnwillows.
Other cards like Restoration Angel (which is awesome with SFM, Strix, Snap and Clique) or Elsepth, Knight Errant are also very good in this matchup.
Overloading on spot removals is also very good here with Abrupt Decay being particularly good as it can take care of Sylvan Library, Chain of Mephistopheles, Lilianas and all cratures except BBE.
Still, it's a very tight matchup, very based on how players curve out.
Hope this will help you to beat those pesky Jund players more easily.
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