Miracle Control

[magic_gazz]

in my experience that only happens very late game vs decks like maverick and/or bug if it ever happens.
grove really shines in the BUG matchups and to pressure annoying planeswalkers for this deck like liliana.

I think if I was that worried about beating Liliana I would just run Celestial Purge.

If trying to stop Planeswalkers in general Pithing Needle. This is also able to be fetched and costs 1 so more reliable.

Is there any other time that Punishing Fire is better than other options we have available?

[blacknapkins]

you don't need 4 ponders in this deck, max i would say is probably 1, even then it's not very good.
elspeth is okay if you expect a lot of mirrors or midrange.

check out my current list, this is punishing miracles (based heavily on kaosjr's list)
http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

Hey Sauce, just wondering how your sideboard has been performing, specifically the one-of artifacts and Academy Ruins. It's a cool tool-box idea, but I wonder if you fail to find the parts you need given that there are no tutors in your list. Has this been a problem? If you came up against Dredge, for instance, you have 3 pieces of hate (plus the option to recur them with Ruins). Have you found that to be enough? I wonder if finding Academy Ruins and your hate is a bit of a stretch.

I've been running a Punishing list as well, but my sideboard has 2 Surgical Extraction, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Rest In Peace (only comes in when PFires come out), and 2 Enlightened Tutors. And I still lost to a Dredge player after resolving a Rest In Peace!

[Dzra]

At the potential risk of a massive sidetrack...

I'm not a big fan of Punishing Fire here, but if I were to decide that Punishing Fire were the way to go for Miracles, I would be more inclined to try a throwback to Countertop's younger days.

//Land 22
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Cascade Bluffs

//Creatures 6
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

//Other Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bonfire of the Damned

//Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

This deck doesn't particularly belong in this thread, but since people are interested in Punishing Fire, I thought I would share it. There's obviously a lot of potentially flexible slots, including but not limited to a second Cascade Bluffs, 1-2 Ponders, and more or less Bolts and/or Snapcasters. Splashing back into White for Swords or adding an Underground for Deathrite are also options. The reason to play this type of deck over UW Miracles would be an improved midgame, thus a better game against all of the midranged Deathrite decks. You'd lose some of UW's early and endgame power, so I'm not sure if it is worth it, but I'd rather try this than get too greedy with UW's mana.

[twndomn]

At the potential risk of a massive sidetrack...

I'm not a big fan of Punishing Fire here, but if I were to decide that Punishing Fire were the way to go for Miracles, I would be more inclined to try a throwback to Countertop's younger days.

This deck doesn't particularly belong in this thread, but since people are interested in Punishing Fire, I thought I would share it. There's obviously a lot of potentially flexible slots, including but not limited to a second Cascade Bluffs, 1-2 Ponders, and more or less Bolts and/or Snapcasters. Splashing back into White for Swords or adding an Underground for Deathrite are also options. The reason to play this type of deck over UW Miracles would be an improved midgame thus a better game against all of the midranged Deathrite decks. You'd lose some of UW's early and endgame power, so I'm not sure if it is worth it, but I'd rather try this than get too greedy with UW's mana.

God no~, it's pretty much RUG delver wannabe, but
1. instead of delver you have counter top.
2. instead of stifle and mongoose, you run bonfire and jace.

You might as well post that in a Rug delver thread and start from there.

[Dzra]

Also Moose8583, you can take a look at a lot of proven Miracles lists here: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/viewByArchetype/232 . The heavy Ponder version with 3-4 Entreats does exist, but it's less common than some of the other lists.

[The Treefolk Master]

God no~, it's pretty much RUG delver wannabe, but
1. instead of delver you have counter top.
2. instead of stifle and mongoose, you run bonfire and jace.

You might as well post that in a Rug delver thread and start from there.

Actually, both decks have completely different plans...

There have been some RUG Countertop lists running around TC Decks; along the lines of Supreme Blue (minus the Dazes).

It might work, but you'd probably need Engineered Explosives to answer Goyf. Intuition could work in that shell getting loam, EE, Ruins, P. Fire, or simply as a tutor for some random 3-off.

[sauce]

I think if I was that worried about beating Liliana I would just run Celestial Purge.

If trying to stop Planeswalkers in general Pithing Needle. This is also able to be fetched and costs 1 so more reliable.

Is there any other time that Punishing Fire is better than other options we have available?

it's pretty good at kill bob, stoneforge mystic and death rite shaman as well as having versatility to go upstairs and planeswalkers

[sauce]

Hey Sauce, just wondering how your sideboard has been performing, specifically the one-of artifacts and Academy Ruins. It's a cool tool-box idea, but I wonder if you fail to find the parts you need given that there are no tutors in your list. Has this been a problem? If you came up against Dredge, for instance, you have 3 pieces of hate (plus the option to recur them with Ruins). Have you found that to be enough? I wonder if finding Academy Ruins and your hate is a bit of a stretch.

I've been running a Punishing list as well, but my sideboard has 2 Surgical Extraction, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Rest In Peace (only comes in when PFires come out), and 2 Enlightened Tutors. And I still lost to a Dredge player after resolving a Rest In Peace!

dredge for me has been all about timing your plows/terminuses. sometimes you just draw your gy hate and it's a pretty easy game as long as you dont let them nature's claim it...
that sb is in flux, i dont play academy or tormod's/relic irl, i play 1 surgical, 1 faerie macabre. my meta has 1 reanimator deck. i also have humility and ensnaring bridge to hedge against it.
overall i find dredge fairly easy to beat since 3 spell pierces get all their relevant spells on the play except for putrid imp and you can force it.
your goal is just to setup terminus when they recur ichorid at the end of their draw step so they dont get to cabal therapy, etc.

[magic_gazz]

it's pretty good at kill bob, stoneforge mystic and death rite shaman as well as having versatility to go upstairs and planeswalkers

Killing creatures is already taken care of with Swords/Terminus.

I am trying to keep an open mind, but it just seems that the ability to deal with Planeswalkers and creatures you can already handle does not seem worth the strain on the manabase, especially when there are on colour answers.

What are the main advantages to running Punishing Fire? Can these problems not be easily solved with other cards?

[sauce]

Killing creatures is already taken care of with Swords/Terminus.

I am trying to keep an open mind, but it just seems that the ability to deal with Planeswalkers and creatures you can already handle does not seem worth the strain on the manabase, especially when there are on colour answers.

What are the main advantages to running Punishing Fire? Can these problems not be easily solved with other cards?

it does not hurt the mana base that much. i think it just gives the deck another dimension and extra versatility. terminus is not very good vs liliana, neither is swords to plowshares. it also helps the merfolk matchup as you get 3-4 more red sources for your sb red blasts and p.fires.
pfires is also excellent against discard spells since you can get them back off red mana if they gain life or off groves naturally.
i was sold after i saw kaosjr's post/list. the mana base is obv worse, but it's not bad to the point where you get ranched out of the game by 1-2 wastelands.

[sauce]

check out this game where p.fires is "mvp" :-) (vs tezz)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PPTuNl4xNo

[Poron]

Punishing Fires excludes Rest in Peace and Blood Moon, half of our (my?) deck power.

The only thing it really does it to kill Planeswalkers.
So does Leyline of Sancity, Celestial Purge, Lightning Bolt, REBs.

Against BUG (Liliana, Jace) I side in 3 Pyroblast and 4 Leyline of Sancity. 90% of the time it's enough.

Shouldn't it start to be sufficient, I'll play some (2+) Celestial Purge.
It also kills Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant and Tombstalker.
Two of these three weren't shut off by RiP anyway so it is as good (or better) as a Lightning Bolt. Not even to mention PF

[catmint]

Without beeing an expert of the archetype I cannot imagine that a P. fire version is the optimal build.
Whenever I want to play miracles it is because of 2 things:
- Stable mana
- Rest in Peace

Both things you would have to sacrifice to support the punishing engine.

[sauce]

Without beeing an expert of the archetype I cannot imagine that a P. fire version is the optimal build.
Whenever I want to play miracles it is because of 2 things:
- Stable mana
- Rest in Peace

Both things you would have to sacrifice to support the punishing engine.

Whenever I want to play miracles it's because I have a powerful deck w/ access to Terminus, SDT, CB and JTMS.
Rest in peace / PFires are role players in the deck, they are not the core reason to play the deck.

As stated before, there is no such thing as "optimal" build. If your metagame has merfolk in it, you're going to look silly when you have a rest in peace in your deck instead of PFires.
When they play Dark confidant and you have rest in peace, you wish it was PFire. Same story w/ liliana.
The only time Rest in peace is better than Pfire is vs Tarmogoyf and Nimble mongoose. Yes, there are other fringely played decks and creatures that rest in peace is better against like Dredge and KoTR but overall, it's a metagame call.

[Poron]

Rest in Peace better against:

Tarmogoyf
Nimble Moongose
Deathrite Shaman
Snapcaster Mage

also: ANT, TES, High Tide, Dredge, Loam

Punishing Fire is better against:
Dark Confidant
Vendilion Clique
Delver of Secrets

these are the most played cards that are affected by this choice: PF or RiP?

Honestly I think that Pyroblast and Celestial Purge are enough and prefer to go with RiP (and Energy Field and Helm of Obedience). Also because it means (to me) more mana stability and Blood Moon

it's definitly a favorite strategy call... I don't mind leaving creatures (with no tricky abilities) around and defend myself with Energy Field for enough turns to kill with Entreat/Terminus/Helm.
Other prefer the creatures way + PF to clean the board.

Strategies... In my opinion, since PF is strong against strong creatures that luckily are low on thoughtness, 2-3 Forked Bolt would deal the same effect on the field leaving you free to still play RiP.

4 Terminus
4 StP
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm

never felt needom for more control on creatures.

[sauce]

Rest in Peace better against:

Tarmogoyf
Nimble Moongose
Deathrite Shaman
Snapcaster Mage

also: ANT, TES, High Tide, Dredge, Loam

Punishing Fire is better against:
Dark Confidant
Vendilion Clique
Delver of Secrets

these are the most played cards that are affected by this choice: PF or RiP?

Honestly I think that Pyroblast and Celestial Purge are enough and prefer to go with RiP (and Energy Field and Helm of Obedience). Also because it means (to me) more mana stability and Blood Moon

it's definitly a favorite strategy call... I don't mind leaving creatures (with no tricky abilities) around and defend myself with Energy Field for enough turns to kill with Entreat/Terminus/Helm.
Other prefer the creatures way + PF to clean the board.

Strategies... In my opinion, since PF is strong against strong creatures that luckily are low on thoughtness, 2-3 Forked Bolt would deal the same effect on the field leaving you free to still play RiP.

4 Terminus
4 StP
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm

never felt needom for more control on creatures.

have you played against shardless bug, esper blade or merfolk?

[Poron]

rather often, actually.

to divert Cascade --> Ancestral Vision on myself is sweet as few other things in this game.

Pyroclasm get rid of all of the creatures of the deck you named but Merfolk.

Energy Field gets rid of Merfolk. Ah right. 3 Pyroblasts too.. the worst MU in those you named is Esper because of SFM and Batterskull

[Cipher]

Pretty sure they would pay the on their upkeep...

[Moose8583]

Also Moose8583, you can take a look at a lot of proven Miracles lists here: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/viewByArchetype/232 . The heavy Ponder version with 3-4 Entreats does exist, but it's less common than some of the other lists.

Thanks

[ivanpei]

I think you guys are forgetting Engineered Explosives. It takes out the important things our other removal can't handle. Especially liliana and sylvan library. I've been bringing EE out of the board very successfully.