[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[Koby]

Goyf is big enough on its own, and doesn't need a 2 card combo with Varolz/Dreadnought/Shadow to make him big. Adding more removal and counters could help insure that Goyf gets to 4/5 easily (which in most matchups is large enough).

The Varolz/scavenge is pretty neat, but seems overplayed considering it requires 4 mana to get a big boost. Not trying to shoot it down, but looking at the realistic cost to make something "big".

[kingtk3]

I would like to build a deck around Varolz and Dreadnought too, but I don't have enough time right now.
However I think I understand why Gage Bunting choose to run tarmogoyf: if you play Varolz you need a decent amount of creatures because you need at least two to profit from his ability (one in a grave and one in play).

My first thought is that you really want to scavenge on something like invisible stalker or Silhana Ledgewalker because they are hard to remove. However they are also awful without varolz on the field. So in order to avoid too many dead cards (remember that dreadnought and death shadow are also dead without, respectively, stifle and some self inflicted damage) he has resolved to play goyf which is good on his own.
However goyf seems that doesn't need Varolz which then become a win more card.

I look at Varolz as a sort of card advantage machine: if a creature is killed it will come back (kind of) on the "back" of another, which is it's good in grindy matches. It can enable nice tricks with 'nought/shadow, but i think it's more than a pump effect.

If I were to build a Varolz deck I would like to play torpor orb and a full set of dreadnought instead of shadow (I would play a couple of them maybe) because I think it's easier to play. Torpor orb has also some nice interaction with some problematic creatures opponent's may play: SCM (no more double swords), vendilion, stoneforge and emrakul (LOL).

[Jay_Gatz]

Emrakul's trigger is on casting, torpor orb won't stop it.

[HammafistRoob]

This is a list I just came up with, it's more focused on the mid-late game.

-LANDS-21
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

-CREATURES-10
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Trinket Mage

-PERMANENTS-7
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
3 Standstill

-SPELLS-22
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt

-SIDEBOARD-15
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Dark Confidant
3 Vision Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives


The sideboard hasn't been used yet since I'm still trying to tweak the maindeck. The Vision Charms seem good since they double as an enabler for the Dreadnought and protection from Abrupt Decay.

[Megadeus]

I look at Varolz as a sort of card advantage machine: if a creature is killed it will come back (kind of) on the "back" of another, which is it's good in grindy matches. It can enable nice tricks with 'nought/shadow, but i think it's more than a pump effect.

Right. It essentially gives all of your dudes flashback in some sense.

[TraxDaMax]

One card I find really odd in here is Tarmogoyf.
Another, is the lack of Force of Will; barring that, lack of Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce which are both stronger than Inquisition of Kozilek IMO.

I've been pondering how to jam force in the list too and get those silly goyfs out. FoW does make playing dark confidant pretty risky.

[scottpou]

I am going to the SCG Open in Worcester, MA this Sunday. I have not gone to an official MTG tournament since 2005, so I am quite nervous and excited. Even back then when I used to attend weekly tournaments, there was never more than 20 people who participated. Does anyone have any advice for one of these SCG Opens? Here is my current deck list after several weeks of tweaking and testing with my play group:

//Creatures (12):
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Jace's Phantasm

// Instants (20):
4 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Rapid Hybridization
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm

// Sorcery (8):
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

// Lands (20):
14 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory

// Sideboard (15):
3 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
3 Rapid Hybridization
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Trickbind

[Megadeus]

What do Jaces Phantasm and Rapid Hybridization do.here? I think V Clique would be solid in.mono U.

also I assume you dont have access to blue fetches so you can be playing brainstorm?

[scottpou]

phantasm is a cheap 5/5 flyer. same as tombstalker in the UB Dreadnought. along the same lines with the UB versions, rapid hybridization is creature removal. dismember can't take out a Grisselbrand.

I actually do have the blue fetches and the brainstorms, but during testing thresh's (which I'm expecting a lot of) stifle was a pain one too many times. honestly i haven't missed it that much. sure hiding cards from the thoughtseize and hymn is nice but that's why I put two Flusterstorm into the main.

does anyone have any useful tips or suggestions for attending one of these opens? my teammate and I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks

[HammafistRoob]

Jace's Phantasm seems terrible with Deathrite Shaman everywhere. Do stifles really scare you out of playing fetches and Brainstorms? Brainstorm is THE best card in the format. It is extremely relevant to be able to get rid of unwanted Dreadnoughts sitting in your hand. I just don't see a reason to not play Brainstorm and Fetches.

Also, the lack of Standstill is a mistake. I hate seeing this card cut since it plays a massive role in 75% of the matchups out there. Another key strength of the deck is its flexible manabase. Please play to the decks strength's.

I would definitely play URx with Grim Lavamancer, Brainstorm, and Standstill.

[Rood]

I have to agree with Roob here...Standstill is a MUST. If you don't play it in this deck you need Bob or some other form of intense CA.
-See you in Worcester friend i have tech but must PM if you want.

[HammafistRoob]

-See you in Worcester friend i have tech but must PM if you want.

I wanna go :(

[Rood]

I wanna go :(

Check your PM box bro.

[gwax]

I too am planning to attend SCG Worcester with my variant of Stiflenought. I've been testing variations of the deck for a while but this will only be my second major tournament with the deck (the first being SCG Worcester last year).

I originally started with an Esper variant of a UB Stiflenought list. For fun (and fear of Abrupt Decay in BUG), I tried Mother of Runes in the list and shifted further toward UW. The more I play UW, the more I really like having access to Swords to Plowshares, Mother of Runes + Delver of Secrets, and Rest in Peace in the board.

Here is the list I'm currently sleeving up; any advice/feedback would be welcome and appreciated:


// Artifacts (2):
2 Torpor Orb

// Creatures (14):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Snapcaster Mage

// Instants (21):
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vision Charm

// Sorceries (4):
4 Ponder

// Land (19):
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard (15):
2 Null Rod
3 Pithing Needle
2 Detention Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
2 Disenchant
3 Mindbreak Trap

[HammafistRoob]

Weird brew, I don't like. Not Dreadstill either, but I'll give advice even though I know you won't take it...
-2 Torpor Orb, it's a complete nonbo with Snapcaster, and you already have 6 cards to cheat your fatty in.

-4 Mother of Runes, you shouldn't fear Decay this much. If you do, run 4 Vision Charm. I guarantee with your list she will do NOTHING way too often, unless you have a creature in play.

-2or3 Misdirection, you can't afford to 2for1 yourself too many times. You're already running Nought+Stifle and Force. I could see maybe one being OK.

-4 Ponder, with this deck, many games will be long and grindy. With that possibility in mind, you should fill this slot with a means of actual card advantage.

Ok so now you have 13 free slots. I would add 4 Standstill, 2 Lands, 3 Daze, 3 Spell Pierce, 1 Snapcaster Mage. Changing the manabase to add in a 3rd Factory probably. Also RiP seems worse than Surgical Extraction here. Sometimes RiP is slow and clunky, Surgical is a better Tempo play and becomes ridiculous with Snapcaster. So basically


//LANDS-21
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Island

//CREATURES-11
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Snapcaster Mage

//SPELLS-28
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Vision Charm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares



Drastic changes I know, but honestly without Standstill your deck plays out completely differently than Dreadstill. The deck was designed to be able to play either the Tempo or the Control roll. Your list is more Combo/Tempo in my opinion.

[gwax]

Weird brew, I don't like. Not Dreadstill either, but I'll give advice even though I know you won't take it...

I'm not that obstinate and I certainly wouldn't be asking for advice if I wasn't willing to accept the possibility that it'd be harsh advice.

I used to run Standstill in my UBw build but the manabase couldn't handle Mishra's Factory and Wasteland, so Standstill would often under-perform. Having pared back to UW, you're absolutely right that I can cram a few Factories into my manabase. Torpor Orb comes and goes for me; sometimes, as you point out, I forget that I shouldn't have it and Snapcaster in the same build. I've always liked Ponder but I'll do some testing without it.

I'm not yet ready to drop Mother of Runes because sticking mom with a Delver around seems to trump an awful lot of decks. I will pare her back and up the countermagic a little.

I could still use some sideboard advice but here's where I'm at now:


// Creature (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Snapcaster Mage

// Enchantment (4)
4 Standstill

// Instant (22)
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vision Charm

// Land (21)
2 Island
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard (15)
2 Null Rod
3 Pithing Needle
2 Detention Sphere
1 Disenchant
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Swords to Plowshares


Fun aside: Dreadnought + Swords is delightful against Burn.

[HammafistRoob]

I'm not that obstinate and I certainly wouldn't be asking for advice if I wasn't willing to accept the possibility that it'd be harsh advice.

1)I used to run Standstill in my UBw build but the manabase couldn't handle Mishra's Factory and Wasteland, so Standstill would often under-perform. Having pared back to UW, you're absolutely right that I can cram a few Factories into my manabase. Torpor Orb comes and goes for me; sometimes, as you point out, I forget that I shouldn't have it and Snapcaster in the same build.

2) I've always liked Ponder but I'll do some testing without it.

3)I'm not yet ready to drop Mother of Runes because sticking mom with a Delver around seems to trump an awful lot of decks. I will pare her back and up the countermagic a little.

4)I could still use some sideboard advice but here's where I'm at now:


// Creature (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Snapcaster Mage

// Enchantment (4)
4 Standstill

// Instant (22)
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vision Charm

// Land (21)
2 Island
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard (15)
2 Null Rod
3 Pithing Needle
2 Detention Sphere
1 Disenchant
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Swords to Plowshares

1) I've played tons of 3 color lists and never had any issues with a 21 land manabase. Although I've never played Karakas in here because it doesn't really do much for us. I guess it makes Reanimator and S&S slightly easier, but Reanimator isn't very prevalent right now and Sneakshow is already a pretty easy matchup. I guess bouncing Thalia is pretty good for us.

2)Ponder is a great card, yes, but it conflicts a lot with our strategy. Ponder is a weak turn1 play here because we'd rather keep mana up to Stifle a fetch(or at least bluff the possibility), or to Pierce or Brainstorm a turn 1 discard spell. So now that we know turn1 ponder is pretty unlikely, lets look at turn2. Ponder on turn2 is MUCH weaker than Standstill in most cases. You win so many games countering a turn one play and dropping Standstill it's ridiculous. This is just some basic reasoning, really thinking of what you want your deck to be doing in the first turns. My point is, Ponder pretty much takes the back seat to all our other plays. If you're aiming at playing Ponder on turn2 or 3, I think you're doing it wrong and would be better off with an actual draw spell or Sensei's Top. Actually, you should probably replace the Ponder with Tops. You lose 3 blue cards for FoW and shitty Snapcaster targets. But if you play Top once there's no need to flashback cantrips. Also having an active Top while resolving Standstill is totally not fair at all.

3)True. But what does it protect you against? Things you can counter if you have to? If they Decay your Delver, that's one less they have for Nought. Sticking a Standstill with a Delver in play should give you the win a better percentage of the time. By taking out Moms you can make your Mages much more powerful and reliable by adding the 4th StP and the 3rd Pierce. Which would also free up another board slot. My main concern with her is how situational she is. Literally half our deck is situational, all the counters do nothing against resolved creatures, Dreanought does nothing without a Stifle effect, Stifle and Charm often have nothing relevant to target, Standstill is clearly the defenition of situational. Adding Mom just makes this deck suck in my honest opinion. If you took your first proposed list and added ~6 more critters I could see it being pretty decent.

4) You have me pretty confused here honestly. Could you explain some card choices and reasoning?

[gwax]

1) I suspect this is in large part because I started with a 19 land manabase and I needed double-black for Tombstalker. With 21 lands, it's much easier to fit everything in, especially if Swords is the only thing that needs White. Karakas does a tiny bit against Reanimator and S&S but it's mostly there to answer Thalia and prevent Teeg from shutting down Force of Will.

2) I think, perhaps, I have been playing this deck suboptimally. This does fit with your assessment that I was playing more combo/tempo as opposed to tempo/control. It also explains why I've been having so much trouble in the long game and against other control decks.

3) Ditto my comments from 2. You have successfully convinced me to pitch the Moms in favor of the 4th Swords and 3rd Pierce.

4) Although I seem to be taking a lot more advice on my main deck than I expected, I was asking for sideboard help because I am at a bit of a loss. I'll tell you what my thinking is so far:

• Null Rod -Affinity to shutdown lands and Tezzerator to shutdown everything. Blade/Maverick: shutdown equipment.
• Pithing Needle - Qasali Pridemage, JaceTMS, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, and other annoyances. Though by adding the factories and cranking up the countermagic, this may be less necessary.
• Detention Sphere - Ichorid: wipe zombies. Tezzerator: wipe Chalice. S&S/Reanimator: Blank fatties. Randomly: wipe other pesky permanents.
• Disenchant - Chalice, Affinity, Tezzerator, Batterskull/Jitte.
• Mindbreak Trap - Extra protection against combo/storm/Flusterstorm; might be unnecessary at this point.
• Surgical Extraction - Reanimator, removing combo pieces, Dredge, etc.
• Swords to Plowshares - I want 4 in the 75. Though now I'll be moving this into the main.

Earlier you suggested pitching Rest in Peace for Surgical Extraction but I wonder if RiP might be worth having in the board to hit Goyf, Deathrite, Mongoose, and Ichorid. Of course, RiP blanks our Snapcasters and competes with Standstill, which are pretty bad things. Additionally, RiP is slow, so it probably can't fully replace Surgical Extraction.

Beyond that, I'm all ears.

[HammafistRoob]

1)Karakas does a tiny bit against Reanimator and S&S but it's mostly there to answer Thalia and prevent Teeg from shutting down Force of Will.

2) I think, perhaps, I have been playing this deck suboptimally. This does fit with your assessment that I was playing more combo/tempo as opposed to tempo/control. It also explains why I've been having so much trouble in the long game and against other control decks.

3) Ditto my comments from 2. You have successfully convinced me to pitch the Moms in favor of the 4th Swords and 3rd Pierce.

4) Although I seem to be taking a lot more advice on my main deck than I expected, I was asking for sideboard help because I am at a bit of a loss. I'll tell you what my thinking is so far:

• Null Rod -Affinity to shutdown lands and Tezzerator to shutdown everything. Blade/Maverick: shutdown equipment.
• Pithing Needle - Qasali Pridemage, JaceTMS, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, and other annoyances. Though by adding the factories and cranking up the countermagic, this may be less necessary.
• Detention Sphere - Ichorid: wipe zombies. Tezzerator: wipe Chalice. S&S/Reanimator: Blank fatties. Randomly: wipe other pesky permanents.
• Disenchant - Chalice, Affinity, Tezzerator, Batterskull/Jitte.
• Mindbreak Trap - Extra protection against combo/storm/Flusterstorm; might be unnecessary at this point.
• Surgical Extraction - Reanimator, removing combo pieces, Dredge, etc.
• Swords to Plowshares - I want 4 in the 75. Though now I'll be moving this into the main.

5)Earlier you suggested pitching Rest in Peace for Surgical Extraction but I wonder if RiP might be worth having in the board to hit Goyf, Deathrite, Mongoose, and Ichorid. Of course, RiP blanks our Snapcasters and competes with Standstill, which are pretty bad things. Additionally, RiP is slow, so it probably can't fully replace Surgical Extraction.

Beyond that, I'm all ears.

-1) The problem I've had with Karakas is, it kind of competes with other colorless lands for slots. I would try running the fourth Factory instead since it has synergy with itself. It's really tempting to go with four, especially when you're only on two colors.

Thalia isn't that bad for us in most situations, and having the one-of to answer her doesn't seem very reliable anyway. I'd rather try and optimize consistency for an open meta, you can focus on Death&Taxes, Maverick, and Reanimator with your board.

-2) Wow open minded Sourcers? Who knew! But yeah, true hard control decks can be difficult matchups. This is where Standstill, Snapcaster and Factory should be MVP. Definitely side out Dazes even on the play, they may play around it even when it's in the side.

-3) Sweet deal, I hope it works out for you. We need Dreadstill to start putting up some results.

-4) Null Rod and Trap are the glaring wtf?!? cards too me. Null is just too damn narrow, does anyone play affinity on East Coast anymore? Sure it's great against Tezz, but maybe you can get help from Needle here. Or just run them over with a 12/12 lol!

Trap is good against decks we are already stong against, easy cut here. The Disenchant could probably just become a 3rd D.Sphere since it's more flexible. So with 6 slots open, maybe you could go with....

*2 Vision Charm- Amazing versatility in some matchups. Not only does it get Nought out and/or protect him from Decay/any removal, but it can be used to blink out a Batterskull FOREVER or as a psuedo timewalk on a manastrapped opponent.

*3 Peacekeeper - This card really hoses Elves, Dredge and Merfolk.

*1 Vendilion Clique? I dunno, there are times when an extra beater would be greatly appreciated.

-5) Yes RiP is good against RUG and BUG variants. But so is SnapMage, and I really wouldn't want to be siding him out here. If you really expect to play against Dredge, you may need the full 4 Surgical. Don't forget you can use Noughts to remove Bridges if a good chance presents itself.

On second thought, maybe you need something to help the Jund match. I haven't gotten around to testing against it, but it seems kinda bad just looking at some of their lists.... hmm...

Maybe I'll see you at SCG, I have no clue what I'll be playing since I still have no cards(damn life being expensive).

[Rood]

Playing a very different list then what you guys are used to seeing. Lets see how this works out.