[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[th3 w1z4rd]

Yup, you got me. I'm a registered retard.

Sounds like in that matchup Silence would have been pretty clutch. Maybe you should consider the idea that Burning Wish is a good card, but not at its best in ANT. I know it's hard to divorce statistics from bad beat stories, but ya know. You could maybe try it out.

I've played TES a lot and been horribly destroyed by decks like RUG Delver. Cabal Ritual >>>>> Rite of Flame. Not even close. Silence would make ANT's manabase crap like TES's. I've had no mana troubles unlike with TES. I know you love TES to death so why not stay in that thread instead of here? Talking about how Silence is better and Burning Wish isn't good in ANT... you're clearly advocating for your pet deck. But if people wanted to play TES they'd be in that thread, not here. And my statistics over hundreds of games indicate that Burning Wish is awesome, at least in my build of ANT, if not others.

[Jay_Gatz]

Can we just ban comparisons between TES and ANT in this thread? It's never productive and it's quite obnoxious.

[Dark Ritual]

Burning Wish is invincible. I don't have Past in Flames maindeck because the only time I want it is when I have an abundance of mana from rituals, so wishing for it in that situation is acceptable. I just played an out of control game against RUG where I played multiple Burning Wishes, sometimes as counter bait and once to get the sideboard Tendrils for the win. I actually Infernal Tutor'd for Cabal Therapy once to help strip the insane amount of countermagic from my opponent's hand. At one point I played Gitaxian Probe and his hand was Force of Will, Daze, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Stifle. DAFUQ. Much of the time he didn't have a threat but then he got a flipped Delver and I needed my full stock of Infernal Tutors and Burning Wishes to get enough resources to punch through the blue wall. I actually combo'd off to 9 storm between playing stuff and him playing blue spells but then I couldn't finish him off. A couple turns later I resolved an Ad Nauseum at 10 life, went down to 2, stripped away his Stifle finally and Burning Wished for Tendrils to kill him from 19 life. Anyone who says Burning Wish is bad in ANT is retarded.

P.S. In Game 1 I played some mana, Burning Wished for Past in Flames and won on turn 1.

Maybe wish works for you. But the card is trash without rite of flames or doomsdays and I'll stand by that statement. You cut PiF? That makes ad nauseam marginally better, however there's the issue of playing burning wish as well so your ad nauseam flops can still fizzle out quite easily by flipping no mana but all these cantrips, wishes, and infernal tutors. Also, you beat an opponent with no clock/you had a long time to set up? Congratulations on that incredible feat I don't know how you can lose when your opponent does no damage to you at all.

Stifle isn't a problem card until they use it on your fetchlands if you lack lands in hand to play around 1 mana sinkhole. Why? You can't stifle past in flames. You simply resolve PiF, flashback all the rituals into therapy/duress on stifle, then tendrils them. I can't remember the last time my tendrils of agony trigger was the target of a stifle. It's the same case with ad nauseam, flip over duress/therapy. Cast dark rit into either one on their stifle and they suddenly die when you follow that up with CRit, LED, tutor, tendrils.

Did you ever consider that if those wishes were preordains you could just, you know, dig for discard/extra infernals to fetch discard to strip his countermagic? I've played grindy games with combo quite a bit, and when the opponent lacks a significant clock it's almost too easy for me to win the game.

Let me also reiterate the second bad part of wish. Nice sideboard, bro. Love all those 1 ofs you have in there that can't be boarded in or if they are boarded in water down wish even more.

Could people not discuss izzet charm in storm combo? That's just sad. I would never ever run the card in my sideboard.

[Lemnear]

I've played TES a lot and been horribly destroyed by decks like RUG Delver. Cabal Ritual >>>>> Rite of Flame. Not even close. Silence would make ANT's manabase crap like TES's. I've had no mana troubles unlike with TES. I know you love TES to death so why not stay in that thread instead of here? Talking about how Silence is better and Burning Wish isn't good in ANT... you're clearly advocating for your pet deck. But if people wanted to play TES they'd be in that thread, not here. And my statistics over hundreds of games indicate that Burning Wish is awesome, at least in my build of ANT, if not others.

So you suck to pilot TES? Still not a valid argument for Burning Wish ANT, right?

[th3 w1z4rd]

So you suck to pilot TES? Still not a valid argument for Burning Wish ANT, right?

The deck itself sucks, like your English.

[Pdingo]

@th3 w1z4rd

When you get destroyed by RUG all the Time , then your doing something wrong with TES.
And sorry maybe, you like BW to death but it's wrong to Play BW in ANT. You won't have a better manabase with BW in the board.^^
Good ANT Player knows BW sucks and it's damn wrong;)

and pls no isults^^

[Lemnear]

The deck itself sucks, like your English.

Must be the reason I win tournaments playing against RUG, BUG and Show&Tell decks all the time. Feel free to hit me on details of the reports in my sig.

If my english isn't good enough for you, we can switch to german, bavarian, spanish or french. Your choice.

[Asthereal]

Canadian Threshold is very loseable for both TES and ANT. TES has more trouble there because it has the Past in Flames on side, so it's less accessible, and the mana base is worse. The only upside for TES is having Emtpy the Warrens main deck. If you have that one in your opener, things look a lot better. But seriously, people should stop saying players are bad because they lose to Canadian Thresh with either Storm variant. If you draw mediocre hands and the Thresh player gets all the good stuff, you just die.

[Lemnear]

Canadian Threshold is very loseable for both TES and ANT. TES has more trouble there because it has the Past in Flames on side, so it's less accessible, and the mana base is worse. The only upside for TES is having Emtpy the Warrens main deck. If you have that one in your opener, things look a lot better. But seriously, people should stop saying players are bad because they lose to Canadian Thresh with either Storm variant. If you draw mediocre hands and the Thresh player gets all the good stuff, you just die.

No, doubt that you can loose against Canadian but Maindeck EtW and being able to wish/infernal for EtW turn 1/2 with the help of mox and Rite of Flame is nothing ANT can perform and favors TES over ANT in that matchup. To claim that the pure opposite (especially in terms of Rite) is the truth, is laughable.

Edit: I have no clue why the accessability of PIF in TES should matter in any Way against RUG Delver

Edit 2: If you just don't loose some games against RUG with TES and it's EtW, but get "destroyed" by it every game, you should in fact question your playstyle/-skill or actually never have played the matchup and just use phrases and guesses to prove your point

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Not to just barge in and interrupt, but isn't Strionic Resonator something to take a look at? It re-triggers storm...Won't hit most other things like LED, Petal, other mana abilities, but does help with that, can really lower storm count needs while still virtually adding to the count even if you didn't play it on combo turn. It's easy on the life total for Ad Nauseam, and could even just be a sb option. Anyway, call it a novelty, but I think it will see at least some play in storm initially much like Nivmagus did. Makes Snapcaster Mage a bit better as well...

-ABC

[Asthereal]

@ABC: That thing costs four mana to cast + activate. You can also just tutor chain two times more and have more Storm count. Adding a card that otherwise does nothing seems bad. I think that card might have some potential in Modern. There's enough triggered stuff to copy, and in Modern you don't get killed before turn 5, so you actually have some time to get that thing to work.

@Lemnear: in the Thresh matchup, a couple of things matter:
1. Opening hands!!!
2. Being able to get an Empty the Warrens through.
3. Being able to recover when a lot of your stuff gets countered.

For point 1, there's no real winner. TES plays slightly worse cards (Chrome Mox compared to Cantrips and Lands), but it does have more explosive starts.
For point 2, TES obviously wins. TES is better at casting Empty, and some ANT lists don't even support it.
For point 3, ANT clearly wins. ANT has a more stable mana base, which helps when Thresh is on the mana denial plan. Also, having better access to Past in Flames helps you recover when many spells were countered.

My experience is that ANT is a bit better against Canadian Thresh. Maybe I am unlucky, but I often get a lot of stuff countered, and if they have a Delver out you don't get much time to recover, so you better recover quickly and well. Getting Past in Flames asap helps here. I feel that TES is highly dependant on it's opening hands, and if they suck, and the opponent just gets his good stuff, you are in trouble. I've played this matchup a lot, and I've tried many things, but if they just play a Delver and then proceed to counter your more relevant spells, what can you do? I read all of your reports. I find them very insightful, but your tips cannot help me push this matchup into the positive.

[phazonmutant]

Can we just ban comparisons between TES and ANT in this thread? It's never productive and it's quite obnoxious.

On the one hand, I agree with you. But on the other hand...what else do we have to talk about?

I feel that TES is highly dependant on it's opening hands, and if they suck, and the opponent just gets his good stuff, you are in trouble. I've played this matchup a lot, and I've tried many things, but if they just play a Delver and then proceed to counter your more relevant spells, what can you do?

That hand is pretty much the god hand for Thresh and it's hard to beat for both decks.
I don't have a whole lot of experience from the ANT side since I stopped being terrible at Storm, but it seems like ANT relies pretty heavily on getting to 3 or 4 lands to power through the counterspells and taxes. I guess Carpet of Flowers works pretty well at that job, but I'm a bit skeptical that it's worth the slots. Haven't played with it, so could be wrong. Doable, but Stifle and Wasteland can be problems as you mentioned.

TES plays a bit differently. You're right that it's pretty dependent on opening hands in the sense that TES feels unbeatable when it draws a Silence or two and has a couple lands, but it's a slog if you don't draw Silence. TES is less vulnerable to Stifle, but hurt more by Wasteland.

Thresh is a tough matchup, but I feel like it's about 50/50 given equally skilled pilots, and I feel favored if I'm playing against a bad Thresh pilot. Pretty sure that's true for ANT as well.

[practical joke]

I've been skimming through the recent pages quickly and I confirmed one thing: It's full of crap and yes-no arguments.

Not helping what's it about.

ANT, TNT (BW -ANT) and TES are both combo-decks but all play relative different. Do not compare them, they are not the same and do not play the same way against i.e. treshhold variants.

Anyways, all are fine.

ANT is straight forward, lots of resilience agaisnt discard and other hand manipilation. Can get acces to lots of mana with very few cards, can win out of very few cards.
TNT was created to give ANT more resilience to hatebears meanboard and other mainboard hate that get more presence for some time. ( cards like pyroclasm, ETW and deathmark got to see play in the board)
TES is a more aggressive combo variant combining aggressive play and resilience to hate, quite weak against discard and heavy counters due to it's aggressive nature. However, skilled players can manipulate their ways into a win against those kind of decks.


Now that's in the clear, just discuss the deck itself and it's sideboard and ignore the TES part, which has a completely different thread on it's own.

I saw some things about izzet charm.
Just don't. reactive cards are horrible for combo in general. Play the xantid swarms, they are a big deal when they hit play and your opponent has no answer ( even if they have, you'll probably get the better of the trade anyways)
The point with reactive cards is, they cost mana and trade 1 for 1. Are need to be used the same turn you want to combo out.
Silence does the same thing, but better. if it resolves, you win, if not you don't have to go off yet. same goes for xantid swarm
regular discard allows for topdecks, but do the same thing, trade 1 card for another but can be cast beforehand and also allow you to adapt your playstyle according to your the cards in their hand and abuse the information very well.

[bondfan]

This discussion again...
How I see it is, if it's a weekly legacy tournament for all means run TES. But for any larger tournaments 9+rounds, I'll be on ANT all the way. Two different decks. For actual discussion, has anyone ran 16 cantrip vs grim tutor and has results? I've been losing games recently by not hitting business and was wondering if I should just shell out the $200. And no, I will not run burning wish.

[practical joke]

This discussion again...
How I see it is, if it's a weekly legacy tournament for all means run TES. But for any larger tournaments 9+rounds, I'll be on ANT all the way. Two different decks. For actual discussion, has anyone ran 16 cantrip vs grim tutor and has results? I've been losing games recently by not hitting business and was wondering if I should just shell out the $200. And no, I will not run burning wish.

Nope, never played with the eyeballs in my 75.
11-12 cantrips have always done the trick for me when playing the UB ANT version. I did try Grim tutor, but I've managed to work it out without them as well.

However, that list is quite old and it very rarely happened that I found no business at all. ( it did happen, but you're playing combo, it's not something uncommon)
I'm used to play with double ad nauseam in that list though.
I've tested up to 2 Grim tutors in the main. They do the trick, but not quite the way you want them to do it.
They are fine pre- ad nauseam, but horrible when you flip them. The 3 life and the 1 mana is quite the burden when trying to chain your storm at times.
but they are you're only viable options if you need more business and you're scared of running double ad nauseam.

Also, I am not very thrilled about probes, they do their job when playing therapy. If not I find them to be horrible at times when playing Ad Nauseam. I like them in TES and doomsday though.

[bondfan]

Nope, never played with the eyeballs in my 75.
11-12 cantrips have always done the trick for me when playing the UB ANT version. I did try Grim tutor, but I've managed to work it out without them as well.

However, that list is quite old and it very rarely happened that I found no business at all. ( it did happen, but you're playing combo, it's not something uncommon)
I'm used to play with double ad nauseam in that list though.
I've tested up to 2 Grim tutors in the main. They do the trick, but not quite the way you want them to do it.
They are fine pre- ad nauseam, but horrible when you flip them. The 3 life and the 1 mana is quite the burden when trying to chain your storm at times.
but they are you're only viable options if you need more business and you're scared of running double ad nauseam.

Also, I am not very thrilled about probes, they do their job when playing therapy. If not I find them to be horrible at times when playing Ad Nauseam. I like them in TES and doomsday though.

I think probes are actually very good. G1 you generally kill with PiF unless they get T1 Deathrite. Even so, Deathrite decks are not the fastest decks so Ad Nausem will be safe most of the time. Also, the information is crucial. Post boardgames however, I usually side some number of probes because you know what they're on and PiF gets weaker. I've had my tutors extracted way too many times which is why I've been looking at grim tutor. 3 (potentially 6) life and 3 mana seem very bad however.

[Jay_Gatz]

Free draws/storm are awesome with PiF in regards to probe.

[Dark Ritual]

Nope, never played with the eyeballs in my 75.
11-12 cantrips have always done the trick for me when playing the UB ANT version. I did try Grim tutor, but I've managed to work it out without them as well.

However, that list is quite old and it very rarely happened that I found no business at all. ( it did happen, but you're playing combo, it's not something uncommon)
I'm used to play with double ad nauseam in that list though.
I've tested up to 2 Grim tutors in the main. They do the trick, but not quite the way you want them to do it.
They are fine pre- ad nauseam, but horrible when you flip them. The 3 life and the 1 mana is quite the burden when trying to chain your storm at times.
but they are you're only viable options if you need more business and you're scared of running double ad nauseam.

Also, I am not very thrilled about probes, they do their job when playing therapy. If not I find them to be horrible at times when playing Ad Nauseam. I like them in TES and doomsday though.

Agreed about probes being great in TES and DDFT. DDFT getting a free cantrip to draw into the pile is amazing while providing storm. In TES it shows if they have an answer for turn 2 kill you. It's less impressive in ANT to be sure, but it's still very powerful in the combo mirror regardless of what deck the opponent is playing, alright against control, and only really bad against aggro short of it being turn 1 probe into therapy to strip their thalia, GSZ, teeg, etc. etc.

Out of curiosity, what have you been running for your maindeck? I'm curious, as you're a very competent storm player unlike some people.

[nevilshute]

Could someone shoot me some quick pros/cons on their thoughts/experiences with Dark Confidant in the sideboard for a non-burning wish ANT build?

This is my current sideboard:

3x Chain of Vapor
3x Abrupt Decay

• My anti hatebear/countertop/chalice stuff

2x Carpet of Flowers
2x Xantid Swarm

• My anti Island stuff

1x Empty the Warrens

• Not sure about this, but it seems good to have a second win con to side in

4x blank blankfidant(?)

• Feel like I need either these or something else to side in against discard. Ignorant Bliss seems bad as it means having, and leaving open, 1R all the time. Another option is Sensei's Diving Top, but I like Bob.

Anyway, open to any suggestions :)

[Asthereal]

Nope, never played with the eyeballs in my 75.
11-12 cantrips have always done the trick for me when playing the UB ANT version. I did try Grim tutor, but I've managed to work it out without them as well.

However, that list is quite old and it very rarely happened that I found no business at all. ( it did happen, but you're playing combo, it's not something uncommon)
I'm used to play with double ad nauseam in that list though.
I've tested up to 2 Grim tutors in the main. They do the trick, but not quite the way you want them to do it.
They are fine pre- ad nauseam, but horrible when you flip them. The 3 life and the 1 mana is quite the burden when trying to chain your storm at times.
but they are you're only viable options if you need more business and you're scared of running double ad nauseam.

Also, I am not very thrilled about probes, they do their job when playing therapy. If not I find them to be horrible at times when playing Ad Nauseam. I like them in TES and doomsday though.

Are you the one we called that list after?

I love Probe. I think it's great and I always like to have one. Still, for the tourney yesterday I cut them. They seem to mess up my deck building:
- I need enough cantrips that actually dig to find stuff I need when I need it. Probes don't do that very well.
- The information is really nice, but a Thoughtseize will get me the same info and strip a card without me needing two cards for it.
- As you said, Probe doesn't play particularly well with Ad Nauseam.

I ran this list (that needs work though):

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam /20

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual /18

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize /7

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire /15

Side:
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens (2 to side in, 1 wishboard)
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Reforge the Soul (testing vs. Diminishing Returns)
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek (Therapy might be bad without Probe)
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth /15

I went 3-3 in the tourney.

Round 1 vs. Mono-U OmniTell combo (Mark)
Game 1 we exchange some disruption. I draw mediocre stuff and cannot go off. At some stage he gets an Omniscience on the board and cantrips into lands. I have to do something. Reforge will probably get him a counter and then get me killed, so I go for 14 Goblin tokens, hoping he draws blanks. Fortunately he does draw blanks and I get the win. Lucky me.
Game 2 My disruption stopped him from getting the good stuff. I drew all my Seizes, he drew almost all his Cunning Wishes. Pretty awkward. When I tried to get some Goblins into play, I had to Seize first. I would lose if he could use his Wish to get a Force of Will, but he had them all main deck. His awkward hand could not turn into a winner before he died to my army. 2-0

Round 2 vs. Jund (Ben)
Game 1 we both mull to six. I discard his Hymn, and start digging for the win. He gets quite a bit of pressure on, and I cannot explode in his face. Credits to Ben for being the first Judn player I encounter who actually knows how to use Deathrite Shaman optimally.
Game 2 he Duresses my wincon. I manage to find an Empty the Warrens. He Maelstrom Pulses my army after dropping low on life, but a few turns later my small Tendrils finishes him off.
Game 3 is a bad one. He gets two Deathrites and two Dark Confidants. He forgets to attack two times with the Confidants. I final.ly get an army of Goblins. He defends while hitting my head with Deathrite-eats-spells action. At some stage he finds a way to stay alive and be fast enough to kill me: he blocks a token with a Confidant, and eats his own Confidant with Deathrite for two life. I missed that play! Time in the round is called. I think I can still win. I have a LED and an Infernal. I realise that I boarded out my Tendrils. Shit, no win. Then I think of Infernal for Wish for Grapeshot and realise I at the last moment replaced my trusty Grapeshot with Pyroclasm! I go tilt and forget I can use Pyroclasm to wipe the board and for for a draw (if he doesn't find a way to kill me in his last three turns after time was called). Sio I do something silly and his Deathrites kill me in the first turn after time. 1-2

Round 3 vs. Death and Taxes (Stefan, if I recall correctly)
Game 1 he opens with a white land. I have a turn one kill with 2x Ritual, LED and an Infernal. I play it out and get a rediculous Ad Nauseam with Tendrils in hand and one STorm short of killing him. I shoot him to two life, while recovering my own life total. He plays a Thalia which slows me down just enough for him to be able to kill me before I can Past in Flames my Tendrils back.
Game 2 I bust out 10 Goblin tokens on turn 1. He isn't able to get Batterskull in time.
Game 3 I was lucky he didn't find Thalia, because I was a bit slower than in game 2. I finished him off with an Ill-Gotten Gains loop because I had both Wish and Infernal. 2-1

Round 4 vs. Burn (Nick)
Game 1 I have to mull and get a very doubtful six. I recon he should be on something blue, since he looks calm and is on 2-1 like me. Also I am in the draw, so I'll see a couple of new cards soon. So I keep those six that will probably win on turn 5 or so. He starts throwing burn and creatures at me and I just die before I find a business spell.
Game 2 I play carefully, but the only business I find is an Ad Nauseam. Not the best. I know he has a Bolt, and he has one untapped Mountain. So I Ad Nauseam on until I find the win. This happens nicely before a new card could put me on 3, so I stop at 7 life. He had drawn the Fireblast in his last draw step, so he burns me to death in response to the first Petal I cast. Hard luck. 0-2

Round 5 vs. Berserk Tempo or something like that, awesome deck! (Ward)
Game 1 I have to mull to five. I get a pretty decent five, but he has a Kiln Fiend who gets a Berserk and some other spell boosts. The Fiend becomes 20/2 Trample in one turn and I of course don't really play answers to that.
Game 2 I start a bit better, but he sided in many good cards. My Brainstorm actually makes my hand a lot worse, but still all looks fine. When I can go off I want to Thoughtseize to see whether the coast is clear. He Diverts my Thoughtseize, which costs me my Wish. I am a bit distracted by this play and don't really consider trying to go off regardless of not having seen his hand. It turned out he had nothing besides that Divert, so I could have won here. Instead I pass the turn and he proceeds to make his Nivmagus Elemental 18/10 Trample, and come in for the kill, together with a Tarmogoyf. Ward afterwards bragged about this game at least four times, but he deserves it. Awesome deck, and especially that last game had a big "in your face!" written all over it. 0-2

I could drop now, but I feel I can use the experience.
So Round 6 vs. EsperBlade (forgot his name, sorry!)
Game 1 we disrupt eachother a bit. He gets the wrong card with a discard spell, and Force of Wills the wrong card. At some stage I can go off. I cannot remember which engine I used, but he had no answer to it at that point.
Game 2 I do remember well, because it was a GRINDER! During this game we exchanged many discard spells. He drew all of his Force of Wills, three of which countered stuff I needed to go off, and one I managed to strip from his hand with a Duress. He never found any card that could actually kill me, so I could recover from three times trying to go off and failing because of his permission. When I had almost no deck anymore, I managed to push through my fourth attempt to go off. Past in Flames flashbacked about 10 cards from my graveyard and he conceded before I would showboat into a rediculously large Tendrils. 2-0

So 3-3. Not a very good score, but the deck worked well for me. It was me who failed.
The sideboard was suboptimal:
- Four bounce is one too many.
- The trusty Grapeshot deserves a slot too. Perhaps instead of the Pyroclasm, perhaps instead of something else.
Also, the main deck Tendrils might not be strictly necessary. I could switch it for an Empty the Warrens, opening up another slot in the sideboard. Perhaps I should go back to my original plan and put 2x Red Elemental Blast in the board. It's good against Counterbalance and Mono-U Omnitell combo. I could also add an additional discard spell instead. That's bad against Leyline of Sanctity, but that's only one card. We shouldn't blind stare on one card. At least, not in my opinion.

Back to the original point: I never missed the Gitaxian Probes. Preordains were just better cantrips, Seizes and Duresses gave me the info I needed and protected me well. Actually I at two times had a Preordain shipping away two lands. A Probe would have been two free Time Walks for the opponent there.

(Edit: small correction.)