[DTB] Blade Control

[apistat_commander]

So I am interested in the idea of incorporating Wastelands into traditional Esper lists. I realize that you want to hit most of your land drops, but I think Wasteland will give us an edge against decks with greedy manabases/Punishing Jund. Maybe I just like the idea of fighting fire with fire. So the obvious swap is Academy Ruins, then I feel like you cut a spell for the 23rd land. Probably one of the singletons and I guess that just depends on your meta. I kind of want to run 3 copies of Wasteland but I feel like it would diverge too much from control.

The other thing is that Lingering Souls has become worse with the prevalence of DRS. I feel like swapping a Souls for a second Clique would be good. Geist isn't my thing.

This is my list:

Lands [23]
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Creatures [9]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants [14]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

Sorceries [8]
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict

Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Disenchant
1 Darkblast
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Perish

[Arsenal]

Swapping a Souls for a 2nd Clique seems like a decent change. Although I like Geist in the combo matchups, I've actually found Clique to be a bit better (Clique in response to their combo-turn Silence/Duress and snatching their Tutor is pretty nice). Also, increasing your maindeck blue count is always a good thing to support that 4th FoW out of the board. I think I may make that change too.

[mini1337s]

So I am interested in the idea of incorporating Wastelands into traditional Esper lists. I realize that you want to hit most of your land drops, but I think Wasteland will give us an edge against decks with greedy manabases/Punishing Jund. Maybe I just like the idea of fighting fire with fire. So the obvious swap is Academy Ruins, then I feel like you cut a spell for the 23rd land. Probably one of the singletons and I guess that just depends on your meta. I kind of want to run 3 copies of Wasteland but I feel like it would diverge too much from control.

You could always use Dustbowl. Granted, it's mana intensive and off line until Turn 4, but it makes use of additional lands in the late game. I wouldn't necessarily use it to remove Grove, but I would to remove Karakas.

[Malakai]

Malakai, you may want to reread Flusterstorm. It cannot counter Rest in Peace (legally.)

I meant Past in Flames, sorry.

(Also thanks _ from Cairo)

While I agree with what people are saying about Stifle and Daze in Stoneblade, the argument that they're bad because they're not good lategame looks a bit silly next to a suite of discard spells, which also tend to be blank cards when the opponent is in topdeck mode.

[Malakai]

You could always use Dustbowl. Granted, it's mana intensive and off line until Turn 4, but it makes use of additional lands in the late game. I wouldn't necessarily use it to remove Grove, but I would to remove Karakas.

I have played Wasteland in *blade lists. It's fine, but you must never, ever try to mana screw them with it. Ever. It's great if you use it only for removal of utility lands you can't beat (Grove, EE+Academy Ruins, Maze of Ith is annoying, Tower of the Magistrate too, manlands). The main consideration for me was beating Punishing Fire decks.

[Okay, I might consider wasting them on turn 2 if I'm on the play, have a Deathrite, and am playing Dark Confidant that turn.]

[Griselpuff]

Does anybody else feel like DeathBlade and EsperBlade are separate enough decks that they should have separate threads?

[useL]

Does anybody else feel like DeathBlade and EsperBlade are separate enough decks that they should have separate threads?

Yes, they are very different both in playstyle and list.

[Sturtzilla]

Does anybody else feel like DeathBlade and EsperBlade are separate enough decks that they should have separate threads?

Yes, they are very different both in playstyle and list.

I agree that Deathblade and Esper Stoneblade are different enough to deserve separate threads. Has anyone written a primer/started a thread for Deathblade? I would be game to write/start one but figured that I should check. As a player of both decks, I think that the site should have a thread for each!

[blindspotxxx]

I agree Deathblade is a different archetype

[AEnesidem]

What do people think of THIS hybrid list. It's just stock stoneblade with 2 wastelands and a playset of deathrites. You remove all the clunky one of's like E.E, vindicate and verdict and add in shamans. They seem like a good addition in the stock shell. They accelerate the deck by a turn, fix our fragile manabase and give you incredible grinding power alongside lingering souls.
I have always liked the idea of deathrite shaman in esper stoneblade but i strongly dislike the deathblade lists. They aren't that succesful here in Europe and those lists just look so greedy. Especially the latest lists with geist and abrupt decay seem overly greedy and clunky besides having a bad combo matchup game 1. My testing results with the deck have been worse than with the traditional esperblade lists too.

I still have to test this but what are your thoughts on deathrite shaman in a traditional esperblade shell?

[useL]

What do people think of THIS hybrid list. It's just stock stoneblade with 2 wastelands and a playset of deathrites. You remove all the clunky one of's like E.E, vindicate and verdict and add in shamans. They seem like a good addition in the stock shell. They accelerate the deck by a turn, fix our fragile manabase and give you incredible grinding power alongside lingering souls.
I have always liked the idea of deathrite shaman in esper stoneblade but i strongly dislike the deathblade lists. They aren't that succesful here in Europe and those lists just look so greedy. Especially the latest lists with geist and abrupt decay seem overly greedy and clunky besides having a bad combo matchup game 1. My testing results with the deck have been worse than with the traditional esperblade lists too.

I still have to test this but what are your thoughts on deathrite shaman in a traditional esperblade shell?

I like it. We could use that. Should we still splash a Tropical though? Life is sparse nowadays.

[ThediscoPower]

I like it. We could use that. Should we still splash a Tropical though? Life is sparse nowadays.

The list in question is splashing a tropical, so I guess there you go. I like that list too, however, it is me or does it seem a bit weak to combo, even affter side?
I was thinking about testing something like this :


Lands [23]
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 academy ruins
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
1 tropical island
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Creatures [12]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 deathrite shaman
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants [12]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Counterspell

Sorceries [6]
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls OR 2 baleful strix

Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Vindicate
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Meddling Mage
1 venser
2 spell pierce
1 inquisition of kosilek

As you can see, I have also been a bit conflicted about lingering souls vs baleful strix, that I have been using these last weeks. I love the fact that they seem to do everything I want : killing goylf, drawing cards, being ridiculous with academy ruins. My current list looks like this :


Lands [23]
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 academy ruins
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Creatures [11]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 baleful strix
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants [14]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 spell pierce
1 Counterspell

Sorceries [6]
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 vandicate
1 ponder

Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
2 extirpate
1 zealous persecution
1 Perish
1 Supreme Verdict
1 relic of progenitus
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Meddling Mage
1 venser
2 geist of saint traft
1 inquisition of kosilek

thoughts?

[AEnesidem]

I meant Past in Flames, sorry.

(Also thanks _ from Cairo)

While I agree with what people are saying about Stifle and Daze in Stoneblade, the argument that they're bad because they're not good lategame looks a bit silly next to a suite of discard spells, which also tend to be blank cards when the opponent is in topdeck mode.

Well, these discard spells are indeed bad late game. That's why we don't want more cards that are dead late game. Daze and stifle don't go with our gameplan AND and to a problem we already have. Which is why i like ponder or top so much in this deck. We need some kind of quality filter late game to stop floods of dead cards. Flooding on land+ discard/spell pierces has cost me more than one game.

-----------

I like it. We could use that. Should we still splash a Tropical though? Life is sparse nowadays.

I'd splash the tropical. The one extra nonbasic land will rarely be a problem and being able to gain life paired with the defense of souls can buy you back into the game against decks like RUG or Jund when the pressure is high. Getting out of bolt range is also pretty nifty.

I'm still working on a list. Since i will be facing combo at my LGS, i really want to keep some extra permission maindeck. Problem is, i haven't been too happy with spell pierce in general maindeck. More often than not they have been blanks for me. Due to the combo i will face, i also don't want to lower my blue card count any further.
I still need to test it with the deathrites though. The argument i can find against deathrite shaman is that it lowers our blue card count and isn't an answer to anything in any particular situation. It's a more proactive card. It's nice to have mana acceleration and fixing and it's nice to grind out your opponent but when you are behind, you are not too happy to draw deathrites, spell pierces and discard spells...

EDIT: Also, have any of you tested against mono U Omnishow? What's the matchup like and what did you find were the best options to combat it?

[ThediscoPower]

EDIT: Also, have any of you tested against mono U Omnishow? What's the matchup like and what did you find were the best options to combat it?

i've tested some against it. Pre side went well when I had discard spell. vendilion clique has been key, along with snapcaster on thoughseize/inquisition and such. Post side is much harder (like, really really hard) if they have leyline of sanctity on turn 0, as beside some hate bears and spell pierce/force, the main way to win against them stays making them discard their hand. but then again, i've played twice against it in yesterday tournament, and both games when 2-0 for me, and with the first of those rounds going textbook for me.

Basically, on the draw, inquisitioned on turn one for his cunning wish, turn 3 snapcaster inquisition for his show and tell, turn 4 clique with fow to make it stick, taking his last piece of combo, and beating him to death. game two he kept a really good hand going off on turn 3 with force and pact backup, but no leyline, and decides to not throw away the hand for that, telling himself that worst case he had brainstorm to hide pieces just in case. it then all went to hell after the turn 1 deathrite. on turn 2, I inquisition him, he brainstorms in response, but I counterspell his brainstorm with deathrite's help. He lets it resolve and I take a combo piece. the turn after, i inquisition him again, but this time he FoWs it, not wanting to lose another piece. I just play a thoughtseize right after leaving him with 2 cards, and lay down a stoneforge searching for SoFaF. next turn I get him hellbent with another discard spell and connecting with sword. Deathrite made a huge difference this game, with the extra mana.

next round, game one goes like above, and game two i beat him with leyline in play, but that never happens usually. i pretty much had all my permission this game, and succeeded in extirpating his show and tells, then landing a meddling mage on cunning wish. Game ends when he tries to go for dream halls, counter it and extirpate it too.

So yeah, discard is key in the matchup, and permanent based hate and some ammount of counters is important game 2-3, as leyline is really hard to beat. I survived my 2 omnitell rounds this time (losing to hive mind, however), but if I had known that many omnitell would be in this tournament, i would probably have added some more hate against them in sideboard. Something like arcane laboratory or ethersworn canonist

[sauce]

Why did the 3rd place list from SCG Worcester yesterday splash red for 2 maindeck Izzet charms? Seems like a weak splash that ruins the mana. I get that he has Pyroblasts in the sb, but why play Izzet charms main?

U/W/R Stoneblade
A Legacy Magic deck, by Jared Boettcher
3rd place at a tournament in Worcester, Massachusetts, United States on 2013-07-07
As reported at http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...worcester.html

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Izzet Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
2 Supreme Verdict

Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Plains

Lands
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Celestial Purge
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction

[Malakai]

He was probably analyzing the slots, and he wanted both a blue card and a removal spell. He ended up choosing REB + Izzet Charm over Baleful Strix.

REB is amazing, people. It's a sideboard 1cc instant that is amazing against both control and combo. He should've played 3 in the board.

[Piceli89]

REB is amazing, people. It's a sideboard 1cc instant that is amazing against both control and combo. He should've played 3 in the board.

Finally someone gets it.

[Zombie]

They'll get it in a few days.

[Kirika]

So what changes are people making with the Legend and Planeswalker changes?

I am thinking 2-3 Vendilion Clique might be in order as it has flash and can attack Jace along with gives you information and possibly disrupts the opponent. The disadvantage that they are Legendary is less of an issue since you can play the second and get the effect and still keep it in play. Will cut some number of Snapcaster Mage for the additional Cliques.

Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere might be an option as well. Detention Sphere can be pitched to force but also gets hit by Red blast.

Restoration Angel also seems like it might be worth trying as well but it costs 4.

Without Moxes and Cavern of Souls I'm not sure Notion Theif is worth the slot in the board as your might not have 4 untapped when your opponent plays or uses Jace. Notion Theif can be a total blow out if it resolves but I haven't gotten to play my Notion Theif very often in Legacy. I used it more in Vintage.

Red splash is sounding good for Red blasts but I firmly like the Black Splash for Dark Confidant.


@learntolove6
Dunno about wastelands. Rest in Peace is great vs Punshing Jund. Dark Confidant helps you keep up cardwise with Shardless BUG. Wastelands are good if you are on Deathrite Shaman though.

@Iron Buddha
Dark Confidant is better then Vendilion Clique and Snapcaster Mage because it generates card advantage over time.

@mike1987
Rest in peace is pretty good versus both canadian thresh and Jund. Neuters Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Nimble Mongoose.


@AEnesidem
My big issue with Shaman is it precludes using Rest in Peace which is so good against many decks. Removing Engineered Explosives sounds wrong. I like having Engineered Explosives so much versus aggro and as an out vs counter balance. Deathrites also require running a Tropical Island which hurts the mana base. I like having my 2 Island, 1 Swamp 1 Plains so I can play pretty much everything in my deck other then Supreme Verdict and Elspeth without worrying about wasteland. I prefer Dark Confidant to Deathrite Shaman.

Sideboarded Flusterstorms + Meddling Mage are probably your best bet vs omni tell that are still good in other match ups. Discard is unreliable because of their Leyline of Sanctity but is good if they don't have Leyline so wouldn't board out discard. I been testing Omni Tell and the Omni Tell versus Reanimator match up is so bad.

@Thediscopower
Baleful Strix is looking to be a nice option instead of Lingering Souls with more Deathrite Shaman being played and it helps your blue count for Force of Will. Ability to be recurred with Academy Ruins is good but doesn't happen to often. Lingering Souls does a better job at killing opposing Jace and Liliana. I do board Rest in Peace which makes Baleful Strix seem like an even better option. I will have to test Baleful Strix in the Lingering Souls slot.

@sauce
Red splash is pretty good especially with the change allowing both players to have Jace. REB kills Jace pretty well. Izzet Charm actually is quite good. It kills Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic and Deathrite Shaman while being good against combo.

[Malakai]

Landing jace is now less of a blowout. The changes to V.Clique and other random Legendary creatures don't matter. However, Jitte can shutdown this entire deck, and without the ability to just tutor up our own that card could be a problem. I may be finding space for a Disenchant (more likely a Wear//Tear) in the maindeck.


The key difference between Vintage and Legacy is that in Legacy, drawing more cards does not automatically mean you will win the game.