Yeah, the idea of getting your Mox Diamond Abrupt Decayed early is pretty scary. I don't want to be too Crucible dependant, but I like seeing one mid to late game. I could be covinced to try two Trinisphere' s rather than Crucibles but like the rack I can never reliably guarantee they have less than three cards, I can also never reliably guarantee they will have less than three lands, but a little Crucible often helps.
Mox diamond does not get hit by pox, but the other land is. (I never understood that argument)
@Sughayyer, yeah pox stax may not be pox.
Still, I like what ruins can offer: a tool box.
It doesn't need to be big or cover everything, nor be powered by four entomb, BUT it help a lot to have flexibility in the deck.
DRS? Big deal. Your opponent will only have four, they have summoning sickness, and well, all the sac effects?
i like hardcore's attitude towards deathrite shaman..he's right, DRS has never been too big of a problem for me because of all the cards i'm running maindeck that can kill it, between innocent blood, small pox, liliana and sometimes even the big pox, DRS usually doesn't last more than a turn to use its ability..
the only thing that annoys me about it is its 2 toughness..difficult to remove with darkblast..and spinning darkness can't touch it..
i can see how DRS can be a problem for the loam/pox built which is more reliant on the graveyard, but then again they have abrupt decay..
I keep seeing this here and elsewhere. Uh...Originally Posted by Chatto
"All players lose life, discard cards, sacrifice creatures, and sacrifice lands"
Inqusition + Sinkhole builds would be hybrid shells. Attempting to build Pox as only LD or only HD is not efficient to Pox itself. There's really no reason to build Pox in only one direction when Pox does both so damn well, it just doesn't target, so targetting cards like Inquisition and Sinkhole to hit the things players won't discard/sacrifice is crucial.
That and this thread should stop talking about card prices. I was pointed to the Budget Forum when I mentioned in the past about the price of Sinkhole and realized that truthfully, money is never discussed here and shouldn't be. Same with Nether Void.
I say Trinisphere > Nether Void because if your LD is there, which is for my build, they will never get to their 3rd land for at least 5-7 turns after you Dark Ritual the 3sphere. I proxied Nether Void before considering its purchase but ultimately, gave up cause it can't be played turn 1 efficiently and when I lose my Factory and Cursed Scroll to an Abrupt Decay, I'm grateful that 3sphere forces it to cost 3 cmc. Force of Will and Daze be damned.
Speaking of Shells, since everyone's been pitching their two $0.02, if I ever build Pox, it must come with:
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pox (minimum)
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
4 Liliana of the Veil
I admit, the fact that my shell requirement is large is constricting but when I ignored LD (omit Sink+Waste) or HD (No Inquisition+Hymn) my performance suffered depending on the opponent. By covering all my bases, my sideboard picks up the slack. (Remove Sinkhole or Hymn or dark ritual depending on the foe)
i just purchased my trinispheres yesterday..its the closest thing that we can have to a nether void..but what excites me about the card is that despite it being considered a budget replacement for nether void, in some situations it can even be better, just like what omnistrata mentioned about abrupt decay..
to those running trinispheres, how many are you running maindeck?
I never said anything about prices, only commented that some cards are expensive (but this is Legacy, so we are used to it)
As for hybrid, LD or HD: what I meant is that, while a lot of cards in all of those are the same, some of those (hybrid-) 'shells' have a different angle, focusing more on winning by LD or HD. While one doesn't exclude the other, you rarely see The Rack with Nether Void for instance. Indeed, IoK and Sinkhole supliment the very basis of Pox: disrupt the strategy of your opponent. The differences between LD and HD are small, but can be significant for your own strategy. Now I am no expert on the matter, and believe that Pox is just plain hard to describe, but having a distinction between strategies can give you at least some kind of basic startingpoint, just like talking about/ describing a shell, as initiated by Hardcore.
Below is the current list. I may well change it till tomorrow but for an analysis it is good
4 bloodghast
4 Tombstalker
4 nihilith
4 phyrexian negator
4 smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 pox
4 chalice of the void
20 swamp
2 dakmor salvage
4 dark Ritual
3 Liliana of the veil
Brb.
Back.
Smallpox, Pox, Dakmor salvage and bloodghast are the heart of my deck, i think. They allow me to break the symmetry and also to get creatures in play by dredging. Quite possibly should TB and nihilith also be included but they are not irreplaceable. I ran zombies once.
What I could use is perhaps card drawing but I am not that intrigued buy those that are popular. They eithere die too easily, Bob, or are somewhat lacking like arena. efficiency, or rather powerful spells and dudes make it less needed.
Still there is that instant -1/-1 with scrye.
lose hope is good, its right up there with darkblast..but their popularity has waned a bit due to deathrite shaman which has a toughness of 2..
still, it can kill a whole lot other creatures in legacy, but most just go for innocent blood..
bob dies too easily, phyrexian arena seems a tad bit slow and the lifeloss adds up especially when we're running multiple poxes., some swear by bitterblossom instead of phyrexian arena because at least it nets you a creature every turn but like the arena, the life loss is a little dangerous especially in a deck with very few lifegain outside of spinning darkness and syphon life..
card draw seems awkward in pox though because we're running on very few resources because of all the poxing..perhaps recursion is better in pox than drawing, i could be wrong...
Still, getting two arenas in play is an Ancestral every draw step:D
I'll try arena for real someday. But today it is chalice in the spotlight.
hey hardcore, i remember you dabbled a bit with braids, cabal minion in pox a few pages back..how'd it work for you?
my friend gave me his playset for $2, said he was quitting..anyway, i'm interested to hear how it worked for you and how competitive it could be..
Braids? Well, that was long ago:) I cannot remember if i ever tested that.
4CMC is high, for a pox deck, but why not? should work with Dakmor salvage and the graveyard creatures black has.
I wonder if it wouldn't be nice in death and taxes? To avoid getting grinded down yourself you need some card draw to get more permanents in play.
Should be a complement to liliana I guess.
Just 1. I've found running multiple spheres is like running multiple Crucibles. Accomplishes nothing. If your opponent brings in Artifact hate for your 1 card, he's just blanked 3 of his slots.to those running trinispheres, how many are you running maindeck?
3sphere and Nether Void I'd actually treat a bit more exclusively. I proxied Nether Void and found that the 4th mana needed to cast hurt quite a bit and it also slowed me down further than my 3sphere did. Since Pox has LD as part of its plan, being able to cast Sinkhole for 3 mana and shove them back to 1 land and then follow it up with a Big Pox to prevent him from playing is absolute gold.
Needing 6 mana to cast Pox is quite a bit of a stretch in the face of the Void, but 3 sphere is an easier lock piece to cast and play around than Nether Void. Besides, Dark Ritual into Sphere causes quite a few laughs among my friends when they don't run Force of Will. Establishing a nasty disrupt early I've found more favorable then setting up a deathgrip later.
3sphere = Earlier Lock, a bit weak later.
Nether Void = Later Lock, weak early.
Amusing note:
Sinkhole, $18. Liliana, $35. The look on your foe's face when he needs 3 mana to cast Swords to Plowshares, priceless.
Sounds like you have a nice, competitive circle of card-playing friends.
As for the Trinisphere, it would be what I would have two of if I ever decide on not having the two Crucibles. They are both VERY nasty cards.
I have considered splitting the difference and running one of each. Here is my question, Omni. You are obviously very experienced with your deck and I'm sure have tested the various options extensively, how comfortable are you with the chances of seeing a single card? I know that diluting the threats in Pox is a bad idea, but I like to feel there is a good chance I see a card to plan for it's likelyhood. I can see cutting down to one Crucible just for the occasional "SURPRISE! I can Wastelock you!" and Trinisphere for a similar soft lock. I do find that 2ofs in slow, grindy Pox are about the right number to have a likely chance of seeing one, but not a lot of chance of two of them. Top helps in these matters too. I agree with Chatto on that one. I like smoothing out my draws, choosing what to set up to play immediately or sac to Lilly*or a Pox effect.
Seems like with just one 3sphere, especially as you said you like to see it early, preferably with a Ritual, how often does that happen?
Todays tourney had 13 players which is many for a summer event. I played Chalice in main as i planned but got mixed results. It was true that it didn't hinder my own deck (because i ran only rituals at cmc1) and occassionally I got a lock. However on the whole i missed all the creature kill i had left out (Innocent blood and darkblast). It would be more efficient to move Chalice to sideboard and bring it in as a surprise when i am on the play. ( I know, it is Conventional wisdom and all that).
I met monoB DnT with DRS and deaths shadow. He had more discard which probably won him the game.
Stiflenought with Dark depths. This version is harder to hate, otoh, I had seven less creature kill than normal
Chalice is no substitute for Innocent blood
UB Delver. Can't recall if I won or lost. Lost probably.
Elves. I won and chalice was a major pain for my opponent. Still I think just the ordinary creature kill packet would have been better for me. My opponent had answers for artifacts and could play them in HIS turn, which is worse for me, rather than me playing creature kill, on his elves, in MY turn.
In short; chalice is powerful but passive disruption, and you have no control over when it leaves play.
Also, one of the main reasons to play it was my fear of Swords to plowshares. I think only one deck ran that colour today.
Oh, and i will try start use cockatrice. Playing once a month is not enough.
Stiflenaught can be tough with all the counters and stifles.
For a deck that is advantaged against 'fair' creature decks, it can at times be hard to shut them out, particularly on a card by card basis during top draw wars, why worth considering cards that deal with multiple creatures. The Abyss is The Abyss for something. But several options, all better or worse situationally.
As always in deck building it is two step forward, and one back; chalice was not what I wanted so I will use the list below as basis for my next deck. After all, I went 3-1 with it earlier this spring.
-2 Nether spirit (They do too little in this deck)
-1 Pox (nice card, but I have managed to do with three before.)
-1 Kaervek's spite (no comment)
-1 Darkblast (I had no problem drawing them when I only played two.)
-2 Sensei’s Divining Top (Not so hot with no fetchlands, and only two Darkblast.)
-4 Dark Rituals (maybe)
Cards I want to bring in:
Inquisition of Kozilek
Phyrexian Negator
Phyrexian arena (two should be enough, I think)
Dakmor Salvage (a third)
The Rack
Damn, not enough room.
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