[Primer] Elves!

[Kayradis]

Okay. I see where you're heading now. Would that be a general consensus that the second Hoof > RF ?

Just trying to get the overall feeling.

[Zombie]

It's the kind of thing that the second Arbor is. You don't think it'd be that big at first, but when you try it you just feel secure in a way you didn't before.

[Kayradis]

I do see your line of thought.

I still have to play with it myself in order to be convinced!

[Lemnear]

I do agree with you on some points, but you missed the point I was making in regards to the grindy late games. Regal Force is a reset button for those situations.

I was a true believer in Regal quite a while until I draw the lonely Hoof too often unable to play it but still have NO in hand, facing FoW on naturally drawn Hoof followed up by Terminus or seeing Hoof stifled. All that is dodgable with a Second Hoof.

You don't want grindy games. You don't want to draw 5 cards if you just could kill your opponent instead. My testing left no doubts that Regal Force is not required.

On the other Hand, the same tests showed that Hoof pretty much tops Rurics damage Potential. I cannot Count the times Ruric was double Bolted, Plowed or Submerged in testing and I had to Ask myself if i've ever saw a Hoof (+x) Swing for 12 damage or less lately...

[nudon]

I believe the 2nd craterhoof / regal force / ruric thar debate has more to do with personal preference, play-style, and meta-game than anything. I play regal force because I like having the extra lines of play available. For me, it really shines when I can play NO but have all my other creatures tapped or sick. Rather than attack for 8-9 damage, I prefer drawing 3-4 cards to potentially win next turn. In addition, you still have a superior board state but are in better position to recover if your opponent plays supreme verdict or terminus next turn. Though uncommon, the situation where you can only gsz for 7 instead of 8 occasionally does come up. Furthermore, while it's undesired to draw the single craterhoof, I've never lost a game after drawing cards off regal force. Finally, resolving regal force after getting a craterhoof trigger stifled should win you the game in most cases too.

Additional fringe benefits of regal force off the top of my head:
- moat
- blazing archon
- ensnaring bridge
- blind obedience
- peacekeeper
- energy field

[Koby]

Additional fringe benefits of regal force off the top of my head:
- moat
- blazing archon
- ensnaring bridge
- blind obedience
- peacekeeper
- energy field

??????

Outside of Blind Obedience, each of those stop Regal Force and Craterhood Behemoth equally and pretty much leaves you with no way to win the game. Some lists might have artifact destruction so Ensnaring Bridge and possibly Energy Field can be answered. Peacekeeper, Moat, and Blazing Archon are straight up auto scoop, unless you run Mortarpod.

[nudon]

??????

Outside of Blind Obedience, each of those stop Regal Force and Craterhood Behemoth equally and pretty much leaves you with no way to win the game. Some lists might have artifact destruction so Ensnaring Bridge and possibly Energy Field can be answered. Peacekeeper, Moat, and Blazing Archon are straight up auto scoop, unless you run Mortarpod.

That's not entirely true since regal force allows you to dig for answers. Game 1, you can still play out your entire deck and kill with multiple deathrite shamans + wirewood symbiotes/quirion rangers or answer artifacts with viridian shaman/qasali pridemage/harmonic sliver. Post-board, you have access to abrupt decay too.

[Koby]

That's not entirely true since regal force allows you to dig for answers. Game 1, you can still play out your entire deck and kill with multiple deathrite shamans + wirewood symbiotes/quirion rangers or answer artifacts with viridian shaman/qasali pridemage/harmonic sliver. Post-board, you have access to abrupt decay too.

If you're really worried about these permanents, then play Emrakul. Oh wait, you guys don't want to have good answers to difficult cards, right?

[HoneyT]

If you're really worried about these permanents, then play Emrakul. Oh wait, you guys don't want to have good answers to difficult cards, right?

For what it's worth, Emrakul only gets around Moat and Energy Field out of those cards. I'm personally a big fan of Mortarpod and almost always run one in my SB. It handles all of those cards outside of Energy Field, which isn't really a card.

[Koby]

For what it's worth, Emrakul only gets around Moat and Energy Field out of those cards. I'm personally a big fan of Mortarpod and almost always run one in my SB. It handles all of those cards outside of Energy Field, which isn't really a card.

FWIW, most of those problem cards are typically played with Rest in Peace which invalidated DRS's alt win-con. Thus we have a situation where we're facing:

Moat / Energy Field / Peacekeeper / Ensnaring Bridge + Rest in Peace. Seems pretty abysmal. Depending on the configuration of the sideboard, there might only be one Harmonic Sliver to help recover from this game state. Peacekeeper is likely the easier to deal with, as DRS will just drain them. This potential matchup is likely not a favorable one. Fortunately, it's so uncommon as to not matter. Just ignore it.

[nudon]

I never said I was worried about those permanents. In fact, I specifically labeled "fringe benefits" of regal force in my original post with the main reasons why I run him listed above. You run regal force too so I'm not sure why you're not on my side. As for mortarpod, I like the equipment too and ran it in my original mono-green build when I first started legacy but didn't think it was necessary with the printing of DRS.

[Koby]

I never said I was worried about those permanents. In fact, I specifically labeled "fringe benefits" of regal force in my original post with the main reasons why I run him listed above. You run regal force too so I'm not sure why you're not on my side. As for mortarpod, I like the equipment too and ran it in my original mono-green build when I first started legacy but didn't think it was necessary with the printing of DRS.

Regal Force doesn't solve the issues Elves has with those cards. You're indirectly referencing ways to beat those cards through Regal Force. If your deck has no answers to these cards, and you cast Regal Force, you're still fucked.

[HoneyT]

This potential matchup is likely not a favorable one. Fortunately, it's so uncommon as to not matter. Just ignore it.

This is the main takeaway. If you play against a deck with all this, fine, you lose. They'll beat every Elf player in the room. Congrats to them. We can continue with realistic matches of Magic.

[nudon]

Regal Force doesn't solve the issues Elves has with those cards. You're indirectly referencing ways to beat those cards through Regal Force. If your deck has no answers to these cards, and you cast Regal Force, you're still fucked.

I may not have explicitly said it in my original post but it was implied that regal force allows you to dig for answers. You said it yourself that some list have artifact destruction. Also, I said in a later post...

"That's not entirely true since regal force allows you to dig for answers. Game 1, you can still play out your entire deck and kill with multiple deathrite shamans + wirewood symbiotes/quirion rangers or answer artifacts with viridian shaman/qasali pridemage/harmonic sliver. Post-board, you have access to abrupt decay too."

[Koby]

Semantics. Regal Force is a fine card to draw cards. I wouldn't use it as justification to answer fringe cards however. The SB suite does that just fine with or without Regal Force.

The best argument for Regal Force is that you may not have enough damage to Hoof people out, in which case you have to pass the turn regardless whether you Hoof it or not. Drawing ~5-8 cards with Regal Force and attempting again next turn is much more favorable than putting the opponent to a low life total.

[nudon]

For the second time, I'm not using it as justification to answer cards from the miracle-control matchup. I said "I like having the extra lines of play available." You pretty much paraphrased my original post.

[trevaftw]

Going to be playing elves at SCG Minnesota and so I've been playing solitaire with the deck again (I was prepping for GP KC so this was on the backburner and didn't put much practice or thought into it). Here is the list I've been gold fishing:

Creatures - 31
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Regal Force

Spells - 11
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order

Lands - 18
9 Fetches
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Forest

And I feel like 4 quirion rangers is too many without more llanowar or fyndhorn elves. Going to bump it down to 3 and birchlore up to 3. Would love to hear your input on this.

[Zombie]

Good choice, good choice. Would go -1 Regal, -1 fetch, +1 Hoof or Ruric, +1 Arbor

EDIT: And stuff a Viridian Shaman somewhere in there. Just wrong to not play him. No Shaman maindeck, you lose to one Souls token carrying Jitte. You don't want to lose to one Souls token carrying #¤!&!*!.

[Poron]

how do you deal with a resolved Humility?

[Zombie]

how do you deal with a resolved Humility?

Cry.

EDIT: (Or, in some cases, laugh. many decks play so few creatures because they rely on quality. You have 30 creatures.)