Miracle Control

[Zinch]

This immediately made me think of a parallel from backgammon one of my friends told me. Against weaker opponents, he doesn't necessarily take the optimal play that will lead to a simpler game, but will try to make the game as complicated as possible. I imagine my friend would rather have a Jace on both sides of the table against someone he thought he could outplay and try to prevent a stronger opponent from resolving his. The problem with this approach is that most people think they are better than they are. The correct answer would depend on the player.

As someone who tries to simplify decisions, I would stop my opponent from having a Jace first on an equal board state. For one, I usually think I'm worse than my opponent. It would also save mental energy from the ridiculous maneuvering that is bound to happen in the late game. A better player could probably let both Jaces hit the table and still have an edge in the game.

There's also another issue: Miracles has a hard time removing a planeswalker if it touches the table.

I personally would try to prevent the opponent's Jace from resolving before playing mine...

[Mackan]

Is O-ring better than D.sphere with the new rules? The deck has a hard time dealing with opposing jaces as it is... More elspeth?

[twndomn]

O-Ring has always been better than D-Sphere. D-Sphere is a magnet for Pyroblast/REB from Show and Tell variants.

Actually, I have a strong favoritism for Venser for that exact reasoning: the difficulty to remove opponent's planeswalker.

[Dzra]

O-Ring has always been better than D-Sphere. D-Sphere is a magnet for Pyroblast/REB from Show and Tell variants.

Actually, I have a strong favoritism for Venser for that exact reasoning: the difficulty to remove opponent's planeswalker.

I run a Detention Sphere MD since there is really only upside. I think Oblivion Ring makes a great SB card though. Also, Venser is awesome.

[Jimp]

Hey everyone, this is my first post here on the forums. Legacy tournaments have recently started up in a nearby city so after following SCG's Legacy coverage for ~1.5 years I finally have the opportunity to play in real life. I've assembled a UWr Miracles deck since I'm a control player at heart and this is probably the strongest control deck out there. Legacy events are a rarity here but I do know a handful of Legacy players who run TES, RUG Delver and Show and Tell. There's another enthusiast who I haven't met who runs Tezzeret Control. The rest of the meta is unknown to me so I'm assuming some number of Deathblade, maybe Maverick and misc combo/aggro/budget decks. Here is the decklist that I plan on running in about 2 weeks time:

Creatures: 1
1x Vendillion Clique

Instants and Sorceries: 21
4x Brainstorm
3x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
1x Counterspell
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ponder
1x Entreat the Angels
2x Terminus
1x Supreme Verdict

Planeswalkers: 3
3x Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Enchantments and Artifacts: 12
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
2x Rest in Peace
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Blood Moon
1x Ensnaring Bridge

Land: 23
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Arid Mesa
3x Tundra
2x Steam Vents
6x Island
2x Plains
1x Karakas

Sideboard: 15
1x Spell Pierce
1x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
2x Pyroblast
2x Pyroclasm
1x Disenchant
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Detention Sphere
1x Celestial Purge
1x currently swapping between Humility and Hurkyl's Recall

I've always liked the idea of a control deck with a combo finish, so I went with the RiP + Helm version of Countertop. Enlightened Tutor is pretty self explanatory and lets me run Blood Moon. Since RUG Delver, Deathblade and BUG decks have been tending towards few to no basic lands Blood Moon seems like a reasonable 1-of. The extra Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard is there to act as a virtual extra copy RiP, Blood Moon or any post-board additions.
I've considered running 1x Venser Shaper Savant too since Venser + Karakas is one of my favourite interactions in Legacy, but it feels like my mana curve is already a bit too high. Swapping out the Ensnaring Bridge for Venser might work, though I haven't tested it yet.
I know my manabase isn't ideal but it made sense to me to forgo the Onslaught fetches so that I have fetches for future Modern events. I'm also missing Volcanic Islands and while the Steam Vents aren't a perfect replacement they have been reasonable compared to removing red entirely or running basic mountains.
Build-wise are there any obvious flaws or recommended changes?
Any advice for approaching an open metagame?
How does the sideboard look? Any must-includes that are missing?

More generally, what are people's opinions on win conditions in Countertop? I'm running the Helm combo, Jaces AND Entreat and sometimes wonder if I'm spreading too thin and would benefit from dropping the Entreat for an extra counterspell.
Similarly, for those of you experienced with Helm variants, do you ever side OUT the Helm combo? I haven't done much testing outside of playing vs myself with Deathblade and BUG (I know I know, but I don't have the cards on MTGO and my local MTG buddies aren't into legacy), but I've been inclined to keep Helm since you sometimes get the opening to just end the game.

Hope that's not too many questions too soon . I'm ooking forward to the responses.

[sauce]

I would never play this deck w/o 4 JTMS personally. All lists that do not run 4 are confusing to me.

[twndomn]

Build-wise are there any obvious flaws or recommended changes?
Any advice for approaching an open metagame?
How does the sideboard look? Any must-includes that are missing?

More generally, what are people's opinions on win conditions in Countertop? I'm running the Helm combo, Jaces AND Entreat and sometimes wonder if I'm spreading too thin and would benefit from dropping the Entreat for an extra counterspell.
Similarly, for those of you experienced with Helm variants, do you ever side OUT the Helm combo?

1. You took out DS/O-Ring slot for E. Bridge, could you explain? That's the only card for you, if you want to get rid of opponent's resolved planeswalker.
2. In an open meta, E. Bridge is bad.
3. Your SB can be improved, no need to have 2 Elspeth. I would increase COP:Red or have a Kitchen Finks. Humility is a must.
4. You are not spreading too think, because All the SCG Tournament winning lists with Helm have those, 1 Entreat and 3 Jace are fine, at the least.
5. Not really, why would you SB out your combo win condition? I can see people SB out Entreat.

Could someone remind me, which SCG Top 8 Miracle list runs 4 JTMS (preferably less than 1 year old)?

[sauce]

Could someone remind me, which SCG Top 8 Miracle list runs 4 JTMS (preferably less than 1 year old)?

I played 3 here http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=50683 but I think 4 is correct. You just always want to draw him and people will often either counter or kill the 1st one.
If not, then who cares if you draw more than 1. The only time they are bad is when you have more than 2 in your opening hand. Even then, just resolve one or brainstorm some away.

I feel like when I have JTMS I cannot lose.

[alphastryk]

Jimp, that list seems reasonable. You definitely want at least 1 entreat even in Helm lists, the card is too powerful and makes you harder to hate out.

I almost never board out my helm, but that could be wrong.

The 3rd tutor in the board seems a bit suspect, and I do think you want another piece of actual graveyard hate there (I have a cage), as 3 RIPs will not beat dredge consistently postboard.

I'm curious why the ensnaring bridge in the main? I'd expect to see a general answer like EE, O-Ring, or D-Sphere in that slot.

I understand the reasoning to forgo the onslaught fetches, but it will be a BIG difference, much more than you think. being able to fetch basics when needed is a huge part of this deck's consistency.

I'm pretty sure 3 JTMS is right at least until the rules change.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's correct to run 4 now, and 4 after. 4 now because of it's removal capacity, so with that logic, you need to see as many as possible since they also get countered, attacked and destroyed. It's correct to run 4 after because since they won't destroy each other, it's even more important to stick one since the card advantage will drill the game home for whoever has the active one first, so you need as many as possible to make sure you find one asap.

-ABC

[oarsman]

Hey guys, I am going to try streaming MTGO tonight for the first time. I plan on starting a little after 5:00 pacific time to talk about the deck a little, and then playing in the daily event at 5:30. I'll run some 2mans in the (highly likely) event that the daily does not fire.

http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I want to see a Jace every game. If you untap with one in play, things get a lot more difficult for your opponent. It's also nice to be able to pitch one to a force in the early game and still have 3 left in the deck instead of just 2. Sometimes hands will be awkward, but you're trading a bit of consistency for power when you play with 4.

That said, I will admit I am a biased since I am a Jace Junkie. I can't help it - I get high every time I shoot up with Jace's blue brainstormy goodness, then shudder in ecstasy when I have to start fatesealing my opponent because I have too many cards in my hand.

Four is the right number for argument's sake; three is not wrong, but imho, not the optimal number. I actually just upped my count to 4. It's not just "nice" to still have 3, it's necessary unless you want to spend your time digging for one of two left as opposed to three, which is like playing 3 when they strip the first from your hand, counter it, or make it necessary to toss it to a FoW, it's like they hit a dead card, and they do pick Jace, almost always. Hitting a second is almost never a big deal since you can Jace-Storm it away with your active one or a Brainstorm. You can even keep floating it so if you need, you still have access to your (J)ace in the hole. Don't want it? Shuffle with a fetch.

Also, I honestly fail to see where upping the *barely arguably* best card in the deck to the maximum amount is trading CONSISTENCY for power. That makes virtually NO sense to me. Upping it feels like a small sacrifice of a little bending room in the few/couple flex slots of the list for a card that wins games, no bullshit. I don't understand. Please explain this to me in a way I can understand. Thank you.

-ABC

[twndomn]

Hey guys, I am going to try streaming MTGO tonight for the first time. I plan on starting a little after 5:00 pacific time to talk about the deck a little, and then playing in the daily event at 5:30. I'll run some 2mans in the (highly likely) event that the daily does not fire.

http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

It's great for you to discuss your approaches and stuff, makes the stream entertaining, but you did play horrible, unlike real SCG matches. As you say, streaming is distracting.

[oarsman]

I know, man that was embarrassing. I couldn't stop stepping on my own feet. And with time running out it got worse. Sigh. It is really tough to play when I am looking over at the chat every other turn to see if anyone is asking anything. I'll get used to it hopefully. Or else give up on streaming.

[Koby]

I know, man that was embarrassing. I couldn't stop stepping on my own feet. And with time running out it got worse. Sigh. It is really tough to play when I am looking over at the chat every other turn to see if anyone is asking anything. I'll get used to it hopefully. Or else give up on streaming.

Like I said, you have to ignore the chat in order to play well... Or play a nok interactive deck like combo to be able to checkouttl the chat with any regularity. Just takes a little bit of getting used to.

[sdematt]

I don't think running 3 Jace in the new rules set is "strictly" wrong. Diversifying your game enders isn't necessarily a bad idea, especially if everyone is gunning for Jace specifically.

-Matt

[kaosjr]

I know, man that was embarrassing. I couldn't stop stepping on my own feet. And with time running out it got worse. Sigh. It is really tough to play when I am looking over at the chat every other turn to see if anyone is asking anything. I'll get used to it hopefully. Or else give up on streaming.

This is why you always hear me complaining about how loose I play on modo :P

[Dzra]

Honestly, I think sauce's approach is just as good or better. Just grab some replays that have interesting/difficult matchups or display concepts that you're trying to show and then record the commentary over the top.

And on the Jace front, I'm all for running 4 Jaces, but it does start to become difficult to run sufficient removal and disruption and still fit in all sorts of great wincons. You have to cut somewhere, and I'm not sure if I want to start cutting Cliques/Venser. Post-rotation could change between little and everything. It's hard to say at the moment.

[Kayradis]

Im still wondering if D-Sphere , O-Ring or E.Bridge should take the remaining 3 CMC slot.

Im playing the deck tonight at a small local tourney and Im still not sure.

EDIT :

MD:

1 x Karakas
1 x Academy's Ruin
3 x Flooded Strand
3 x Scalding Tarn
2 x Arid Mesa
1 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Oboro, Palace In The Clouds
2 x Volcanic Island
3 x Tundra
3 x Island
2 x Plain
1 x Mountain

2 x Land Tax
1 x Helm Of Obedience
2 x Rest In Peace
3 x Counterbalance
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
2 x Spell Pierce
4 x Force Of Will
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Ponder
2 x Terminus
1 x Supreme Verdict
3 x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 x Blood Moon
1 x Counterspell
1 x Entreat The Angels
1 x Detention Sphere
1 x Vendillion Clique
1 x Meddling Mage


SB:
1 x Relic Of Progenitus
1 x CoP : Red
1 x Wear//Tear
1 x Hurkyl's Recall
1 x Flusterstorm
2 x REB
1 x Hydroblast
2 x Leyline of Sanctity
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Supreme Verdict
2 x Mindbreak Trap

Elves :
-2 Terminus, -1 Blood Moon
+1 Supreme Verdict, +2 Ethersworn Canonist

Jund :
-1 Detention Sphere, -1 Ponder
+2 Leyline Of Sanctity

Burn :
-2 Terminus, -1 Supreme Verdict
+1 CoP:Red, +2 Leyline Of Sanctity

Merfolks :
-2 Land Tax, -1 Ponder
+1 Wear//Tear, +2 REB

Goblins :
-1 Meddling Mage, -2 Terminus
+1 CoP:Red, +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Hydroblast,

Combo (ANT, TES, Omni-Show/Hall, Ect.) :
-2 Terminus, -1 Supreme Verdict, -2 Land Tax,*keeps the land tax for Omni-Hall*,-1 Blood Moon, - 1 Detention Sphere
+2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Leyline Of Sanctity, +2 Mindbreak Trap

Graveyard Decks :
-2 Land Tax
+1 Relic Of Progenitus, +1 Detention Sphere

Deathblade :
-1 Ponder, -2 Land Tax, -1 Terminus
+2 REB, +2 Leyline Of Sanctity

RUG :
-2 Land Tax, -1 Blood Moon
+1 Relic Of Progenitus, +1 CoP:Red, +1 Hydroblast



So, how would you improve my plans?

[twndomn]

Im still wondering if D-Sphere , O-Ring or E.Bridge should take the remaining 3 CMC slot.

You don't need Land tax, don't need Oboro. Run 3 Terminus plz. Ponder should just be 2 E. Tutor. 1 Meddling Mage MD won't do you any good, only get Terminus away anyhow.

Simply put, just play any tournament proven lists with RiP, I don't see your modification would benefit you in any way, except maybe running 1 Ponder.