Miracle Control

[sauce]

I enjoyed Joe's stream yesterday. Good info on it for anyone that plays this deck. Watch the replay if you have missed it live.

[oarsman]

sauce, thanks man. I appreciate that. I definitely have more respect for people that stream consistently well, now that I have proved to myself that it isn't especially easy. I think over time I will probably mix in liveplay with narrated replays like you do. I also posted an edited version that only includes the introductory segment and not the games.

[Sturtzilla]

sauce, thanks man. I appreciate that. I definitely have more respect for people that stream consistently well, now that I have proved to myself that it isn't especially easy. I think over time I will probably mix in liveplay with narrated replays like you do. I also posted an edited version that only includes the introductory segment and not the games.

Could those of us that are not familiar with your site or stream get some links? I would love to watch you play some games. Thanks!

[god_campbell]

Here is a link to Joe's stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

I defiantly enjoyed the stream Joe, it provided some great little tips and tricks that I didn't always think about, like how you scry your self alot which is something I do less then I should.

[alphastryk]

Here is a link to Joe's stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

I defiantly enjoyed the stream Joe, it provided some great little tips and tricks that I didn't always think about, like how you scry your self alot which is something I do less then I should.

Thanks.

I'll have to watch this when I get a chance.

I do love a good +2 targeting myself. :)

[Jimp]

Thanks for all the feedback. It's great to see some quality legacy discussion.
On the 4 Jace topic, I'd agree that seeing as many Jaces as possible is a good thing and having 4 makes pitching one to Force a lot more comfortable. At the moment I'm on 3 Jace because I don't own a 4th, but I'll be working on it. It does make me concerned about pushing the mana curve higher though. Having 4 spells (3x Jace 1x Helm) at cmc4 seems fine for game 1s, since cmc4 doesn't do much with Counterbalance against several popular decks. Pushing that to 5 means cutting something elsewhere in the curve. Maybe it will make sense post-M14 as more decks run more Jace but I can't say right now.
Ensnaring Bridge is in the main as extra assurance against creature decks, but switching Detention Sphere to the main is a good idea, I'll try it out.
With this and other recommendations in mind, here's what I'll try in the sideboard:
-1 Detention Sphere (moved to the main)
-1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
-1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Grafdiggers Cage (I'll try Surgical Extraction too)
+1 Circle of Protection: Red
+1 something else

I had a dig through my cards and pulled out the following as potential side deck cards. Maybe people have looked at these before and maybe not, but discussion is always good.
Sanctimony - better or worse than CoP:R? My gut tells me worse, but maybe someone has tested it and has actual information.
Sunken Field - bit of oddity, but it does force your opponent to play differently in grindy matchups. Then again, an actual 1 mana counter like Dispel might be more useful.
Counterflux - this might be good but 3 mana seems like a lot for a counterspell in Legacy.
Pithing Needle - feels mediocre compared to other cards but again maybe someone has better information on this.
Izzet Charm - I think this card gets better post-M14 as an extra way to deal with opposing Jaces. The first two modes seem very relevant and it's pitchable to FoW.
Rule of Law / Ethersworn Canonist - for things like Storm. Might be overkill considering one can already board into a very counter-heavy deck.
Echoing Truth / Wipe Away - Might be too narrow compared to O-Ring effects.

Any other sideboarding ideas are welcome. There's also the idea of siding into Stoneforge Mystics + equipment, as seen in Sauce's youtube video (really great video by the way, it was a good insight into the mirror match). Has anyone tried this out before?

[GoSu Charlie]

Hi !

Maybe Im a little offtopic, but let me try to ask :

Can you recommend me to build UW Miracle Control as 1st Legacy deck ? Few days ago I bought pretty cheap Jace. Fetch lands, duals and FoWs are cards that can be used in more decks, I can upgrade/change it to Esper later on + I like RiP + Helm combo. I can make from it Standstill Deck etc, I see many possibilities.

What is current (12th July 2013) state of this deck in Legacy field ? Is it Tier 1 ?

THX 4 answers !

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You can absolutely build a UW Miracles build. The only thing red is there for is Blood Moon and a couple sb cards. Here's a build I would recommend:

3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict//4th Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant (OR Jace no.4)

3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Energy Field
1 Oblivion Ring//Detention Sphere

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Top
3 Counterbalance

3 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce//Spell Snare//2nd Counterspell//4th Force

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta//Other Blue fetch
3 Arid Mesa//Other White fetch
4 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
4 Island
3 Plains

I have no Sideboard for you since your metagame should be the one to dictate that, but this is a UW list I run sometimes when I don't want to run the Moon since it hurts me sometimes more than helps, and can be a dead draw.

-ABC

[obituary 95]

i have seen a lot of lists with varying numbers of spell pierces, what do you guys think is the correct number?

[The Treefolk Master]

i have seen a lot of lists with varying numbers of spell pierces, what do you guys think is the correct number?

The matter was discussed at length a few pages back. Like with most things on the internet; a consensus was not reached. Still, you might want to check it out.

Personally, I'd never run less than 2 MD Spell Pierces, and I believe 3 to be the correct number.

[obituary 95]

The matter was discussed at length a few pages back. Like with most things on the internet; a consensus was not reached. Still, you might want to check it out.

Personally, I'd never run less than 2 MD Spell Pierces, and I believe 3 to be the correct number.

I usually agree, however I could see a 2/1 split between board and main. usually i just run 3

[Zinch]

I've been playing the UW versión, just because in my meta Blood Moon is not necesary and I love the more stable mana base.

I'm playing 22 lands and I think I can afford a 4th nonbasic. Has anyone tried a singleton Kor Haven?

At first glance it seems a good card: it generates mana and can forcé an opponent to overextend to a Terminus...

Any experience with it?

[Dzra]

+1 Grafdiggers Cage (I'll try Surgical Extraction too)

Grafdigger's Cage seems good if you are a RIP deck in the market for more GY hate. I don't know that it's necessary with 3 RIPs and 2 Enlightened Tutors MD, but it's a good card.

+1 Circle of Protection: Red

I'm not really sure why any CoP:Red is needed. You already run Counterbalance MD and Leylines in the SB. Burn should be a pretty easy MU. If you're worried about Goblins, Energy Field or Moat is just better.

Sanctimony - better or worse than CoP:R? My gut tells me worse, but maybe someone has tested it and has actual information.

Likely a non-issue because CoP:Red isn't really needed. Against the decks that you'd want either, Energy Field or more Leylines is just better.

Sunken Field - bit of oddity, but it does force your opponent to play differently in grindy matchups. Then again, an actual 1 mana counter like Dispel might be more useful.

Auras are notoriously bad for getting 2-for-1'd and we aren't particularly in the market for Force Spikes.

Counterflux - this might be good but 3 mana seems like a lot for a counterspell in Legacy.

Basically this.

Pithing Needle - feels mediocre compared to other cards but again maybe someone has better information on this.

Needle has a ton of value in a lot of MU's. It's great against any Vial deck and it can be a real house against Sneak Attack. That said, sometimes it feels a bit crutchy... Still, I'd recommend trying it out.

Izzet Charm - I think this card gets better post-M14 as an extra way to deal with opposing Jaces. The first two modes seem very relevant and it's pitchable to FoW.

While versatile, Izzet Charm has the same problem here that it does elsewhere... none of its effects are particularly worth 2 mana (and one of them off color).

Rule of Law / Ethersworn Canonist - for things like Storm. Might be overkill considering one can already board into a very counter-heavy deck.

Ethersworn is good against a number of combo decks. Storm, High Tide, and Omniscience are up there. It also can help fight counter wars against things like Sneak and Show and Reanimator, but it doesn't disrupt them there as directly.

Echoing Truth / Wipe Away - Might be too narrow compared to O-Ring effects.

Venser is just better for us. Or Detention Sphere and ORing.

I've been playing the UW versión, just because in my meta Blood Moon is not necesary and I love the more stable mana base.

I'm playing 22 lands and I think I can afford a 4th nonbasic. Has anyone tried a singleton Kor Haven?

I haven't tried Kor Haven here, but my inclination would be that it doesn't do enough for being a colorless land. If you are in the market for another non-basic, I would highly recommend running 1-2 Volcanic Island or even a Steam Vents in order to put REBs in the SB.

i have seen a lot of lists with varying numbers of spell pierces, what do you guys think is the correct number?

If you expect a lot of RUG/stifle decks or combo then I'd run 2-3. If you are expecting more Deathrite/midrange or aggro decks, I'd run 0 (perhaps with a couple in the board).

[Cipher]

With the new Jace rule coming out, has anyone thought of another answer to Jace that doesn't involve red mana? I had never like running the third REB in the sideboard, and when Joe commented the same thing on his stream but didn't even board it in it really got me thinking that I actually want to go down to 2 REB, instead of going up to 4. BAsically every JAce deck outside the mirror runs Wastelands, though I suppose the Deathblade deck only has 2x.

Problem is, that requires more answers to Jace. I currently only have 2x Vendilion Clique and 1x Detention Sphere. I wish there were a Faith's Fetters that could hit planeswalkers but cost exactly 2 mana, for Counterbalance purposes.

[phazonmutant]

After watching Joe stream last night, it seemed like UWr Miracles is a little bit soft to the good draws from W creature decks. Mom protecting Gaddock Teeg lost Joe both games against Maverick. I know people run Pyroclasm in UWr, but Mom protects against damage.

How reasonable is changing the splash to B and running a Virtue's Ruin or two in the sideboard? You lose REB so some number of Vindicates (or extra O-Rings?) probably want to go in the 75 to add answers to Jace. It seems like this plan would go best with Joe's creature-heavy build.

Or do you guys think that just playing a Karakas or two should usually be enough?

[Koby]

Or do you guys think that just playing a Karakas or two should usually be enough?

Most of the times, that would be enough. With the rules change, that's even better for Miracles. I know Joe runs two copies of Karakas to interact with his own legends, but also having it blank Thalia or Teeg is a nice bonus too.

[Aetherick]

After watching Joe stream last night, it seemed like UWr Miracles is a little bit soft to the good draws from W creature decks. Mom protecting Gaddock Teeg lost Joe both games against Maverick. I know people run Pyroclasm in UWr, but Mom protects against damage.

How reasonable is changing the splash to B and running a Virtue's Ruin or two in the sideboard? You lose REB so some number of Vindicates (or extra O-Rings?) probably want to go in the 75 to add answers to Jace. It seems like this plan would go best with Joe's creature-heavy build.

Or do you guys think that just playing a Karakas or two should usually be enough?

Running more sulfur elementals is always an option if you want to stay in red. Sulfur in the attack step can usually ambush teeg as long as they don't have removal (which they prolly boarded out)

If you wanted to go black tho, I think perish is better than ruin, mom is not that hard to get rid of, it's just when teegs there, things get problematic, perish is also better against goyf decks and elves, etc.

[Valtrix]

With the new Jace rule coming out, has anyone thought of another answer to Jace that doesn't involve red mana? I had never like running the third REB in the sideboard, and when Joe commented the same thing on his stream but didn't even board it in it really got me thinking that I actually want to go down to 2 REB, instead of going up to 4. BAsically every JAce deck outside the mirror runs Wastelands, though I suppose the Deathblade deck only has 2x.

Problem is, that requires more answers to Jace. I currently only have 2x Vendilion Clique and 1x Detention Sphere. I wish there were a Faith's Fetters that could hit planeswalkers but cost exactly 2 mana, for Counterbalance purposes.

Oblivion Ring is still my favorite answer because of it's versatility in every matchup. It can be removed, but in my opinion the versatility far outweighs the fact that the permanent can be removed.

[alphastryk]

Running more sulfur elementals is always an option if you want to stay in red. Sulfur in the attack step can usually ambush teeg as long as they don't have removal (which they prolly boarded out)

If you wanted to go black tho, I think perish is better than ruin, mom is not that hard to get rid of, it's just when teegs there, things get problematic, perish is also better against goyf decks and elves, etc.

Yep, sulfur elemental usually covers what you need it to, while having more use in other matches like Stoneblade, or even as an uncounterable jace-killer in the mirror (and sometimes ups the entreat clock by maing angels into 5/3s. I even board it in vs SnT decks because it increases my 3 count and the clock from Meddling Mage / Cannonist. :) Most good white players won't attack teeg into open mana to avoid snapcaster / clique trades or surprise angels, so that line is usually not going to happen vs teeg, but if you clean up the moms with elemental, teeg is easy to kill.

If you need more answers I think pyroclasm / Porphyry Nodes just have more utility in other matches. I have 1 elemental, 1 pyroclasm, 1 o-ring in the board (3 terminus, 4 stp, 1 d-sphere, 1 explosives, 1 clique in the main and don't often feel locked out barring sylvan safekeeper / teeg.

...
BAsically every JAce deck outside the mirror runs Wastelands, though I suppose the Deathblade deck only has 2x.
...

I've actually been running a basic mountain for this reason for a while now, and it's been very good for me.

[oarsman]

Usually Mother of Runes plus Gaddock Teeg is the way you lose to Maverick. Even so, the matchup is decent. It is important to note that when I lost to it on the stream, the third game was actually misplayed. If I had dropped the explosives instead of clearing the board, and then cast the Supreme Verdict the next turn, I would most likely have won. That is one thing that makes both individual cards and matchups hard to judge sometimes: you have to play well in the first place. In this case I did not, and it made the opposing cards seem more difficult to beat.

cipher, the comment about bringing in two Red Blasts only applies to decks that run full Wasteland sets. Against other blue decks, I bring them all in.