Miracle Control

[Mackan]

Usually Mother of Runes plus Gaddock Teeg is the way you lose to Maverick. Even so, the matchup is decent. It is important to note that when I lost to it on the stream, the third game was actually misplayed. If I had dropped the explosives instead of clearing the board, and then cast the Supreme Verdict the next turn, I would most likely have won. That is one thing that makes both individual cards and matchups hard to judge sometimes: you have to play well in the first place. In this case I did not, and it made the opposing cards seem more difficult to beat.

cipher, the comment about bringing in two Red Blasts only applies to decks that run full Wasteland sets. Against other blue decks, I bring them all in.

If teeg is a major concern you can allways try out Renounce the guilds... it also kills knights and geist of saint traft (if people still run those). safekeeper + thalia + mom + teeg is no longer gg :)

[alphastryk]

If teeg is a major concern you can allways try out Renounce the guilds... it also kills knights and geist of saint traft (if people still run those). safekeeper + thalia + mom + teeg is no longer gg :)

I've definitely considered Renounce, even looked into picking up a Foil Korean one, but decided it was too narrow. (Worth noting it also kills Deathrite Shaman, Progenitus, Nivmagus Elemental, Shardless Agent, Bloodbraid Elf and Flipped Garruk Relentless).

[twndomn]

I've definitely considered Renounce, even looked into picking up a Foil Korean one, but decided it was too narrow. (Worth noting it also kills Deathrite Shaman, Progenitus, Nivmagus Elemental, Shardless Agent, Bloodbraid Elf and Flipped Garruk Relentless).

Also Tezzerat Agent of Bolas, Baleful Strix. A lot of these can be dealt with Celestial Purge already. Hence, they are pretty much competing for the same slot, while Renounce does offer Geist.

[Poron]

(and Liliana)

[Poron]

btw a clear turn 4 gg even without Jace, Clique or anything...

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[twndomn]

btw a clear turn 4 gg even without Jace, Clique or anything...

The bigger question is: why are there 2 cards in graveyard when RiP is in play?

[Poron]

The bigger question is: why are there 2 cards in graveyard when RiP is in play?

just casted. look at the 3/4 goyf...

[twndomn]

How reasonable is changing the splash to B and running a Virtue's Ruin or two in the sideboard? You lose REB so some number of Vindicates (or extra O-Rings?) probably want to go in the 75 to add answers to Jace. It seems like this plan would go best with Joe's creature-heavy build.

Black offers best removal. Dread of Night and Engineered Plague would take care Death and Taxes, Lingering Souls, and Geist nicely. Vindicate not only hit planeswalker, hit Karakas also.

[Poron]

Death and Taxes has never been a problem with 4 Terminus 4 StP 2-3 Sulfur Elemental and Punishing Fire or Pyroclasm in some builds.

Vindicate is definitly a good piece, but the real added value of black is Duress against combo.

I would love to have a turn 1 Duress against Omnishow. You check his hand and bite

[Dzra]

I'd still rather have REB than Duress against Omniscience though.

[twndomn]

Death and Taxes has never been a problem with 4 Terminus 4 StP 2-3 Sulfur Elemental and Punishing Fire or Pyroclasm in some builds.

You were wrong before, you are still wrong now. Sorcery speed with non-basic land is Not optimal. You can try to play Pyro through Thalia, Port, your red source will not happen. Your only shot is to break a fetchland, even then, they can still Aven Mindcensor it. In a deck that has RiP from the SB, Wastes, and Mother of Rune, PFire is mediocre at best.

I don't know who you have been test with to give you your false impression, but MWS certainly does not count.

[Adryan]

btw a clear turn 4 gg even without Jace, Clique or anything...

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Looks like a very good deck^^ Tarmogoyf, Bayou, Deathrite and Maze lol
Thank you for reminding me why i prefer Magic Online.

[The Treefolk Master]

Looks like a very good deck^^ Tarmogoyf, Bayou, Deathrite and Maze lol
Thank you for reminding me why i prefer Magic Online.

That sounds like a pretty stock list of Junk actually.

Now, onto something Miracles related. I'm seeing several lists pop up online eschewing Terminus completely and just replacing it with Supreme Verdict. Is there any credit to this, or some reason I'm not seeing? It doesn't sound good, you're now running a bajillion 4 drops, can't instant speed wrath. Plus, you're now cold to Thrun...

[Dzra]

Now, onto something Miracles related. I'm seeing several lists pop up online eschewing Terminus completely and just replacing it with Supreme Verdict. Is there any credit to this, or some reason I'm not seeing? It doesn't sound good, you're now running a bajillion 4 drops, can't instant speed wrath. Plus, you're now cold to Thrun...

I can't see why you'd want to pass up on Terminus. To me, it's almost as close to a staple here now as Top. Verdict is a good 1-maaaybe 2-of.

And on a somewhat related note... sometimes against GBx, when facing down multiple planeswalkers and creatures, I've wished that I could find a Planar Cleansing type effect. 6 cmc is a lot, but honestly, that's probably about the point of the game I'd want to cast it anyways. I'm not sure if there is something better for this, but sometimes I definitely wouldn't mind a hard reset. Bonfire of the Damned could work similarly, with the upside being lack of symmetry and the downside being that casting it isn't as straight forward and you'd still have trouble dealing with multiple planeswalkers.

(And on a totally unrelated note, I finally got around to watching all the videos people have been posting and I just wanted to say thanks and keep it up! Makes me want to get into MTG online.)

[cschacal]

The only reason I'd play Supreme Verdict over Terminus is because I want to play the classic U/W control deck without SDT and counterbalances. Something like this:

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Engineered explosives
4 Brainstorm
1 Enlightened tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining top
3 Spell pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Detention Sphere
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Jace the Mind Sculptor
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Force of Will

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Mystic Gate
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Engineered explosives
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Path to exile
1 Pithhing needle
1 Humility
1 Seal of cleansing
1 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Force of will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Rest for the Weary

[twndomn]

The only reason I'd play Supreme Verdict over Terminus is because I want to play the classic U/W control deck without SDT and counterbalances. Something like this:

With 1 MD E.T., I don't see why you would not put 1 Relic of Progenitus (less harmful with Snapcasters).

[cschacal]

Adding one Relic is a good idea. I'm not currently playing this deck, it
is an example of what kind of deck will make no use of Terminus. Maybe this deck it is worth a try but I feel it has too slow masive removal against swarm decks

With 1 MD E.T., I don't see why you would not put 1 Relic of Progenitus (less harmful with Snapcasters).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

EDIT: Misunderstood the post until right after I posted.

[Mackan]

I can't see why you'd want to pass up on Terminus. To me, it's almost as close to a staple here now as Top. Verdict is a good 1-maaaybe 2-of.

And on a somewhat related note... sometimes against GBx, when facing down multiple planeswalkers and creatures, I've wished that I could find a Planar Cleansing type effect. 6 cmc is a lot, but honestly, that's probably about the point of the game I'd want to cast it anyways. I'm not sure if there is something better for this, but sometimes I definitely wouldn't mind a hard reset. Bonfire of the Damned could work similarly, with the upside being lack of symmetry and the downside being that casting it isn't as straight forward and you'd still have trouble dealing with multiple planeswalkers.

(And on a totally unrelated note, I finally got around to watching all the videos people have been posting and I just wanted to say thanks and keep it up! Makes me want to get into MTG online.)

If your opponent has both multiple walkers AND creatures in play while you have nothing, something extraordinary has happened. It's not very likely he has "everything". The first thing that comes to mind is that perhaps you should tap out less often? Instead keep mana up to counter those walkers. Maybe run a few more Counterspell? Creatures can be dealt with but Im not sure if there is a way to handle a resolved walker with efficiency. Every non-counter answer to a planeswalker has to much against it to be comparable, even just a little, with a counterspell (In my opinion). Discard is nice versus combo but versus grindy decks it's a dead top deck more often than not. O-ring/D.sphere on a walker is not a good plan to begin with and Needle/Revoker/Meddling mage are to swingy. There is no "walker-fix" that I can think of. Dilluting the deck with a splash or with answers to a very specific threath or boardstate (like planar cleansing) is not how a stable control deck reach the lategame, which is all that matters imo. With soooo many terrible cards in the deck allready you can't afford to side-step the "play land-pass-plan" any further. Every time I tap out to play anything but top, cb and maybe Jace I feel terrible and often get punished for doing it.

I think the best plan against walkers is to put pressure or play more walkers of your own. With terminus in the deck it's easy to reset the board and trumf it with a powerful spell. The best I can think of are Entreat the angels, Vendilion Clique, Elspeth, knight-errant, Baneslayer Angel, Stoneforge mystic, Lingering Souls, Venser-shaper servant, thopter-package and Gideon jura. 2 cliques and 2-3 of the others in the sideboard should be enough. (edit: and vedalken shackles)

If a walker slips through I think V. Clique is still the best answer... with the new rules maybe Lingering Souls.

[Cafe_Cafe]

Hey guys, I am going to try streaming MTGO tonight ...
http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

Hello Joe,

It would be great if you could stream with different versions of the deck (with RIP/Helm, Punishing, Black splash, etc) to see how those game plans manage to deal with other decks.
Best regards.