[Deck] Death and Taxes

[monovfox]

Pretty sure that from Cairo runs Aven Mindcensor.

And I highly doubt you play anywhere near as well as Enevoldsen. I don't mean this as an insult.

Last time I checked, Cairo does not. Nor would I let that alter my opinion on mindcensor. The one time I wanted to run it I ha food poisoning and was on tilt.

I'm nowhere as good an enesvoldsen when it comes to playing his version of the deck. Likewise, he would have trouble playing my version.

[TiMeWaLk]

Is that sarcasm I hear?

I don't trust pros when it comes to MY deck (well most pros). Enevoldsen and I play the deck differently. The only "pro" I trust is From Cairo (Ben Nash). I toyed with mindcensor, but ultimately found it irrelevant/lacking in what the deck needed. The deck needs the 4th flickerwisp in a metagame full of shenanigans (*cough* Abrupt Decay + Deathrite *Cough*) to protect our vials and the such. The deck also needs a card that screams "fuck you" to every Tarmogoyf Llover and their mother, hence why I maindecked a singleton rest in peace. These cards have done more for me than any number of aven mindcensors combined.

And to be frank, I've been told on multiple occasions that I play about at the same level as he does.

That you read, yes...

I just tried to make you realize how absurd it is to qualify somebody of being a bad player just because he/she runs a card you do not like. Nothing more.

[lordofthepit]

Last time I checked, Cairo does not. Nor would I let that alter my opinion on mindcensor. The one time I wanted to run it I ha food poisoning and was on tilt.

I'm nowhere as good an enesvoldsen when it comes to playing his version of the deck. Likewise, he would have trouble playing my version.

I played against him at an SCG Open in April. He definitely played a Mindcensor against me. I can't say anything about his decklist since then, but I know for sure that he, Enevoldsen, and Bonde are not bad players (regardless of their deck choices).

[Tylert]

Glad to see the deck i play since 3 years being in the deck to beat section :p

[Finn]

Oh heck. I shall have to work on getting a respectable OP now. These are the kinds of problems we all want to have I suppose, but someone please tell me why the BB code for this site and Salvation must be at odds.

@Aven Mindcensor: I can't completely decide whether I like it in the main or not. I have always had a relatively high amount of combo hate, so my perspective is not one of "Need Moar h8!" Rather, I use it as a catch-all backup hate card. I keep cutting it from the main simply because I do not like having so many high cost cards in my opening seven (amongst the other reasons along the lines with what Monovfox has said). I have come to terms with the fact that Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay have permanently dealt BGx decks into the top tier. With this comes the inexorable shift from Serra Avenger to Mirran Crusader. Unfortunately, that brings with it a higher number of 3 mana creatures. This bunch-up at three is a mixed bag as long as you have an active Vial (at 3, of course) since it improves the deck while hindering it. But it only diminishes the deck when your Vial is absent. It is a hard line to walk, but I have found that having a Vial too high is a lesser problem than having uncastable creatures in your hand because they cost too much. I maintain that it is a sideboard card.

Along those same lines...I know that TE has a lot of influence in how the deck is headed since winning GP Strasbourg. He should. But it is unwise to simply follow a design that worked at one event and consider it gospel. In this very thread, TE himself advocated having only 4x of creature cards in the deck at the exclusion of everything else not so long ago, and he was already experienced with the deck at that time. His position has changed 180 degrees since then. There are a lot of judgement calls to be made with this deck. I know exactly what he is shooting for with the singleton Fiend Hunter. But a single, untutorable card will be completely immaterial in most games. I have been experimenting with that slot myself, and I frequently change it to suit my metagame (lots of D&T hate). Find what works for you.

[Zombie]

I thought I was hallucinating when I saw this here. Good job guys. *thumbsup*

[phoenix4]

Wether or not Aven Mindcensor should be in the deck or not.... That's a discussion that could continue for the next 3-4 years... Everyone, who plays this deck, wants different control elements to support their particular play style.... Thomas and Michael did a good job in Strasbourg, and the meta shifts accordingly.. I sleeved this deck, looking at Thomas' list from the latest SCG open he played in, and it is potent for sure, but I want to make changes to it as well, so what...

I'm not a fan of the censor, 'cause it only has 1 toughness, but the ability it provides makes up for the lack of toughness. :)

I'm interested in fitting 3-4 Leonin Arbiter into the deck, as an active Vial on 2, is more than reachable in most MU's, and hitting the OP with a payment of 2, for fetching, activating DRS, Jace TMS and such.... I feel, is a powerful contribution to taxing the OP out of the game, but I'm interested in your oppinion on the Arbiter? :)

[from Cairo]

Pretty sure that from Cairo runs Aven Mindcensor...

...I played against him at an SCG Open in April. He definitely played a Mindcensor against me. I can't say anything about his decklist since then, but I know for sure that he, Enevoldsen, and Bonde are not bad players (regardless of their deck choices).

This is true I was using the Team Rocket list at the last SCG I attended in April.

Last time I checked, Cairo does not.

Also true the more recent versions of the deck that I'd discussed with Clark did not include Aven Mindcensor. I wasn't thrilled with this card mainly due to the point made, that Mindcensor's 3cc often leaves him coming down a turn late. I had been experimenting with Ethersworn Canonists main, to attack the upswing in OmniTell and while it doesn't cripple Elves' NO, it does curb their ability to deploy several creatures in the early turns and turns off Glimpse.

[Fry]

When I originally made the deck myself I didn't have any Enlightened Tutors, and with that being the case when Scars came out I jumped on playing the Leonin Arbiters. When I did get my set of E Tutors and tried them out, I decided that I loved the Arbiter too much to cut them and play the Tutor board with efficiency (which would mean no Arbiter). I know that for some not playing the Tutor package is blasphemy, but I've come to love the Arbiter. The only cards that I play in my deck that search are the set of Stoneforge Mystics and that's perfectly fine by me. The Arbiter screws with the vast majority of decks, most have fetch lands and/or tutors of some sort. Vial on 2 and responding with them is fantastic by the way... One of the best feelings I've had with the deck when your opponent double cracks fetch and you resp... ^_^

As far as the Mirran Crusader is concerned, I've been playing with it since about New Phyrexia's release and I've loved them. Part of why I cut the Avengers for them was because they are a great 3 drop that gives me an additional reason to take my Vials to 3 other than the 4 Flickerwisp and 3 Mangara. Also I put them in partly because they block KotR and Goyf all day long and the Double Strike makes the equipment even more fantastic. I don't have my list with me at the moment, but if you guys would like it, I can probably get it posted in a day or two.

[monovfox]

When I originally made the deck myself I didn't have any Enlightened Tutors, and with that being the case when Scars came out I jumped on playing the Leonin Arbiters. When I did get my set of E Tutors and tried them out, I decided that I loved the Arbiter too much to cut them and play the Tutor board with efficiency (which would mean no Arbiter). I know that for some not playing the Tutor package is blasphemy, but I've come to love the Arbiter. The only cards that I play in my deck that search are the set of Stoneforge Mystics and that's perfectly fine by me. The Arbiter screws with the vast majority of decks, most have fetch lands and/or tutors of some sort. Vial on 2 and responding with them is fantastic by the way... One of the best feelings I've had with the deck when your opponent double cracks fetch and you resp... ^_^

As far as the Mirran Crusader is concerned, I've been playing with it since about New Phyrexia's release and I've loved them. Part of why I cut the Avengers for them was because they are a great 3 drop that gives me an additional reason to take my Vials to 3 other than the 4 Flickerwisp and 3 Mangara. Also I put them in partly because they block KotR and Goyf all day long and the Double Strike makes the equipment even more fantastic. I don't have my list with me at the moment, but if you guys would like it, I can probably get it posted in a day or two.

I respect your decision not to run the tutor board, it's not for everyone. However, it's the one I feel most comfortable using. I normally don't side in all 3 e-tutors, but when I do I am playing against any form of combo.

and do post it, I like to see where other people got with the deck (besides mindcensor. When I see mindcensor my mind automatically censors myself. /badpun)

[abetman]

Just wanted to share my build with censors and arbiters;

LEGACY (modern ported)

Creatures(32)
3 Militant Dryad
4 Mother of Runes
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stonecloaker
3 Flicker Wisp
3 Mirran Crusader

Spells(8)
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial

Lands(20)
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Wasteland
13 Plains

SideBoard:
2 rest in peace
2 oblivion ring
2 ethersworn canonist
2 leonin relicwarder
2 ghostly prison
2 timely reinforcements
1 runed halo
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 jotun grunt
-

My sb needs tweaking though.

[monovfox]

@Abetman, I do agree, sideboard needs tweaking.



I actually like that build. it's not exactly DnT, but it's close to it. If you can, you should run the 4 waste 4 ghost quarter build.


btw, speaking of builds similar to yours, I saw one at the Deals open in esper.

From what I could tell it was running the following:

Thalia
Geist
Cabal Therapy
Revoker
Mindcensor
Judge's Familiar
Tidehallow Sculler
Leonin Arbiter
Flickerwisp
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV (I don't know how many)
Stifle
Ghost Quarter
Wasteland

I only got to see it play a few games, but the deck looked ungodly fun, and was definitely doing better than my food-poisoned performance of 1-3 drop ^_^;;;


I think that version of the deck definitely works, but it actually might want stifles.


btw, I think Swords to Plowshares is strictly better in legacy. If you're on the mana denial plan, atleast have a card that doesn't occasionally give them extra mana. Not to say Path to Exile isn't good in this format (it's insane), I'd much rather have my opponent gain life, because that's something I can deal with, rather than giving my opponent a turn 3 Jace.

Of course, my preference is more towards traditional lists, but I love when people screw around with Arbiter (strictly superior to mindcensor IMO).

[Zombie]

One of them green pointy-eared gits here, hello. I hear I'm supposed to murder you. Any tips on how to visit maximum hoofstomp on your white, hatebeary arses?

[Jungian Thing]

One of them green pointy-eared gits here, hello. I hear I'm supposed to murder you. Any tips on how to visit maximum hoofstomp on your white, hatebeary arses?

Green has ramp, overwhelm our taxes by putting in too many revoker targets and place basic forests into play. Creature based cheat into play Elvish Piper etc are helpful as are any creature based activated abilities (once you have dealt with the revokers). Out ramp us, if you can....and then put a big one on the deck! Which we will StP.

Consider this though, you will beat us and lose to everything else because nothing is like us. Good luck!

[Fry]

I respect your decision not to run the tutor board, it's not for everyone. However, it's the one I feel most comfortable using. I normally don't side in all 3 e-tutors, but when I do I am playing against any form of combo.

and do post it, I like to see where other people got with the deck (besides mindcensor. When I see mindcensor my mind automatically censors myself. /badpun)

Here's the list I promised the other day:

Main:
4 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains

Side:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
1 Manriki Gusari
1 Phyrexian Revoker

I'm going to try out Imposing Sovereign in the side against Elves, hurts the Nettle/Druid and makes Craterhoof a bit sad too.

[monovfox]

just tested the post rules change stoneblade matchups.

I highly recommend the following:

manrikiri gusari in the sideboard

3rd equipment in the main

I might be getting rid of my disenchant for now, because gusari tends to be more relevant in my metagame.


Explanation of 3rd equipment: If your opponent grabs jitte, what do you grab? Your jitte suddenly looks a lot worse, and you can only grab batterskull once. I recommend Sofai or Solas, depending on preference.

[phoenix4]

Are we as Death and Taxes players the only players who has double Jitte in the 75?

[lyracian]

Are we as Death and Taxes players the only players who has double Jitte in the 75?

Stone blade and some Maverick lists run a second in the sideboard so no D&T is not the only deck to run two.

[Gheizen64]

I'm sorry because i didn't read most of development of the deck, but why isn't D&T running CotV?
It's true that you run some 1 cmc cards, however:

- not being able to cast vial past T3 isn't the biggest of losses
- Mother of runes can be casted via cavern on human, which cast almost anything except SFM and flickerwisp

You lose the ability to run swords, but a T2 chalice is autowin against a lot of decks like RUG, Elves!, UWR Delver, AnT, and can be pretty annoying for MonoU Omnitell, Deathblade and TA, while being a minor nuisance to Maverick and Jund.

[Justin]

If you are worried about combo decks (Elves, Tendrils), why not just run Ethersworn Canonist? He shuts down those decks as well as Chalice, can be protected by Mom, and can pick up equipment and bash with it. He doesn't help that much against Delver decks, but those should be positive matchups anyway.