[Primer] Elves!

[nexus blue]

Danyul,

Great job with the primer. You write some funny-ass shit man so keep bringing us tournament adventures. And great job to everyone with the input so far; as an elves lover who has taken a 2+ year break, it's been beyond awesome to return to the game and find that the only deck I have left after I intelligently sold all of my duals, Jaces and what not (name sweet legacy card), is an Elves deck that was running priests and Emrakul instead of NO and Craterhoof. Shouldn't be hard to get back into the game with that.

Now, as an elves player who previously played the above-mentioned deck, (and not a great elves pilot at that), is Emrakul no longer as powerful as he was when i left? I can see Sneak-Show still abusing him in this and other threads, which makes me think that cheating him into play 3rd turn is as good as a turn 3 attack by Craterface and two Nettles. Would love some input to this. For the record I have yet to catch up on every useful card printed since [I]Rise of the Eldrazi[I] (it's only +/- 2600 cards), so if there is some glaring card choice/metagame/new rule reason why Emrakul is less powerful, forgive me for not knowing. I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the other 17 pages of this thread, at least not "don't use Emrakul b/c of X".

I understand that cheating Emrakul is a slightly (or maybe much?) different route than NO, but fast fatties are fast fatties. Right?

Good Weed > Benadryl

[Dice_Box]

Its not that Emrakul is not powerful, it's that Craterhoof behemoth is more powerful. You can NO into a hoof turn three and over run someone with the creatures you played in the first two turns. Drawing Emrakul is not that useful unless your mid combo, drawing a NO with Hoof as a target means you likely just won the game.

Its not that you can't use Emrakul, its just that his role in the deck has been replaced by a cheaper, easier to use target that fit well in the already existing shell.

[nexus blue]

You can NO into a hoof turn three and over run someone with the creatures you played in the first two turns. Drawing Emrakul is not that useful unless your mid combo

And does this occur often enough to make it reliable? I have not goldfished this yet, but while the deck has racked up good wins and close games, it seems a very even split of Hoof-combo and a slower, grinding beatdown.

[Koby]

I understand that cheating Emrakul is a slightly (or maybe much?) different route than NO, but fast fatties are fast fatties. Right?

I am still championing Emrakul, but have been testing the NO versions just for comparison. It's about equal in my book.

[Dice_Box]

Often enough that Emrakul became a part of my trades folder and I now run two Hoof. I mean think about this. You can green sun into the decks second draw engine, (Visionary and Symbiote) draw 3 cards in a turn and then find one of the 3 or 4 NO's your running. Also it is far simpler to get 4 mana and a sacrificial lamb than it is to gain 15 in a vacuum. Another point is that if you can get the mana you can Sun into Hoof, again cheaper and also since your going to be running more than one Sun its more likely to happen.

Think about it like this:

Emrakul:
Need 15 mana
Useful mostly while comboing
Not a great top deck
Can not be tutored
Will win a game on his own while not able to be cast on his own
Gives everything "Haste"


Hoof:
Needs between 4 and 9 mana dependant on hard cast or tutor used.
Can be hard cast or tutored meaning that in most decklists there is between 7 to 10 ways to play him. (No, Hardcast, GSZ)
Needs friends to win, but is almost never cast in a vacuum


I know I am missing stuff and others will fill in the gaps, but if you drop a cradle, get some mana elves online or have a some untap effects around... well things tend to go your way. If you want I can put up my list and you can have a go?

[kalkhasse]

As LeoCop 90 said, Progenitus dies to Perish as well. I guess you could side in some discard and take their Perish first, then NO into Progenitus and then hope they don't rip another Perish in the next 3-5 turns (depending on if they have Batteskull and/or Jitte to race with). But that just seems like you would dilute the deck and make it harder to combo off.

Either way, I tried to brainstorm ways to beat Perish strait up just for fun. I started with green creatures that trump Perish, and the best I could find was Thornling. To bad he dies to Swords to Plowshares.
Another rout could be to make all your creatures indestructible but that just seems bad. A third way could be to return all your creatures from the graveyard with something like Immortal Servitude or Patriarchs Bidding but as sideboardslots are tight as they are I don't see these narrow cards finding their way into the 75.

So yeah, you are probably right. The way seems to be to not go for the aggro route and just try combo off in a single turn to make Perish not matter since it's a sorcery.
After some play testing against these types of decks I found that I would like the second forest in the deck. This is because if they Perish and then waste a dual or two you don't really have that many non-Cradle lands left besides the lone forest.

[Koby]

The card you're looking for to beat Wrath/S.Verdict/Firespout/Perish/bananas is Vengevine. It's one hell of a boss too.

[Zombie]

Another funtimes card, though a slower one, is Oversold Cemetery. Endless gas is nice in grindier games. Vengevine is still probably better though.

[kalkhasse]

Hehe! Thanks! How could I forget Vengevine. I have to try those out.

[Absolutflipz]

The card you're looking for to beat Wrath/S.Verdict/Firespout/Perish/bananas is Vengevine. It's one hell of a boss too.

Vengevine is still bad against Terminus and StP, which are common in such decks and Deathrite in the others. He also takes up a lot of sideboard slots if you're looking at the Buried Alive + Vengevine combo. If you just wanna sideboard 2-3 Vengevines to minimize slots, I'm not sure how impactful that's going to be.

Just some thoughts.

[Koby]

Vengevine is still bad against Terminus and StP, which are common in such decks and Deathrite in the others. He also takes up a lot of sideboard slots if you're looking at the Buried Alive + Vengevine combo. If you just wanna sideboard 2-3 Vengevines to minimize slots, I'm not sure how impactful that's going to be.

Just some thoughts.

That's why I didn't mention Terminus. Even then, GSZ for 5 is not unheard of (altho to be fair, this was in an older list that played more basics than the current DRS lists). Anyways, the discussion began from ways to fight Perish, and not Miracle decks. I don't think that the Miracles matchup is very favorable for Elves.

[Absolutflipz]

That's why I didn't mention Terminus. Even then, GSZ for 5 is not unheard of (altho to be fair, this was in an older list that played more basics than the current DRS lists). Anyways, the discussion began from ways to fight Perish, and not Miracle decks. I don't think that the Miracles matchup is very favorable for Elves.

Sure, understood. Miracles is one of the most unwinnable mu's in my experience.

Then, from that standpoint of Perish, I don't think it's worth sideboarding (vengevine) so specifically against a card that really isnt played all that much (relatively speaking).

I've brought it up before and been flamed, but what about planeswalkers such as Domri or Garruk Relentless - they provide C/A in grindy matchups and act as countermeasures against board wipes. They're also hard to deal with permanents that dont suffer from all the anti-creature cards that come in against us.

[trevaftw]

Garruk, Caller of Beasts

As a one of could be good against control.

[nexus blue]

Often enough that Emrakul became a part of my trades folder and I now run two Hoof.

What you're saying makes sense; there are several more ways to cast a quick NO than a quick Emrakul.

This Deathrite Shaman just seems so beastly for the format - I think someone called it a "mini-planeswalker" and I can see why.

Does the control matchup hurt us more for preventing early development or dropping our later "bombs"? Or is it totally matchup dependent in terms of randomness?

[Absolutflipz]

Garruk, Caller of Beasts

As a one of could be good against control.

I'm extremely skeptical of resolving a 6-mana walker in such mu's....and resolving at a point where it's still relevant.

[nexus blue]

I'm extremely skeptical of resolving a 6-mana walker in such mu's....and resolving at a point where it's still relevant.

Where's the original post? Ha.

But I agree 6 mana isn't hard to come by but if you have 6 to use you can be doing other things.

[Dice_Box]

Does the control matchup hurt us more for preventing early development or dropping our later "bombs"? Or is it totally matchup dependent in terms of randomness?

Depends on the deck. Something like Blade control is simple because all you have to do is tease out the counters and not let Jitte get counters. (Symbiote I love you) Something like Countertop is a different story. Once Top and Balance are down, you're dead. I find the question is more knowing what style to play. Some will try and counter our late plays but anyone that half knows elves will be all out to stop us developing a board presence. Because lets face it, dropping 5 guys in 3 turns and still having a fist full of cards is hard to answer. Simpler to just make sure the mana enablers don't hit the table to slow us down to a crawl. (One of the reasons I hate playing UR Delver.)

[Absolutflipz]

Where's the original post? Ha.

But I agree 6 mana isn't hard to come by but if you have 6 to use you can be doing other things.

Ha - I didn't want to come off too harshly (re: original post)

[nexus blue]

I need help, quick!!

Give me 100 words on why I should stop thinking about Staff of Domination. Be nice.

Thanks!

[Lemnear]

I need help, quick!!

Give me 100 words on why I should stop thinking about Staff of Domination. Be nice.

Thanks!

Because the Glimpse/NO combo build discussed here isn't running Priest of Titania or Elvish Archdruid to draw the whole Library and creating infinite mana. We don't do this because the named two Elves interact poorly with Glimpse and have summoning sickness.