[Primer] Elves!

[Dice_Box]

I need help, quick!!

Give me 100 words on why I should stop thinking about Staff of Domination. Be nice.

Thanks!

Because Mirror Entity is so much more fun... (Not that its used anymore...)

[nexus blue]

This is pretty good goldfishing so far. Lots of Turn 3 wins.

[Dice_Box]

What is your list?

[Lemnear]

What is your list?

Don't feed the troll or this thread develops into the same casual crap like the last. Just a prediction

[nexus blue]

What is your list?

Not much different from the OP; gold-fishing I'm not worried about a SB. And having not played competitively in a few years I have no idea what my local meta is like now anyways.

I'm liking the 2nd Dryad Arbor and 2nd Craterhoof. The redundancy is nice - it means drawing a 'hoof doesn't mean I can't still go for the throat. Same for Dryad Arbor - being able to have 4 lands on the 3rd turn really helps with the smoothness of trying to go all-out on the 3rd turn.

I only have 3 DRS and still have 1 Regal Force that I'm testing with. Running 7 fetches for the DRS. Regal is ok, hasn't saved my bacon yet but hasn't been dead.

Don't feed the troll or this thread develops into the same casual crap like the last. Just a prediction

I agree that if every other post is a decklist with someone's take then the thread will lose the appeal of actually advancing the concept of the deck. But same for all this SB talk - nobody is playing the same meta so while it's nice to see what works for others there's always the luck factor of what you are actually matched against once the pairings are up.

I do think it's still ok to discuss card choices if it's going to be pro/con based or based on actual testing/tournaments/etc.

On a separate note from above, when I'm not beating face with a Craterhoof on the third turn I'm noticing that I am either overextending into a glimpse that doesn't work or some other pilot error. I love that this isn't easy to just plop your hand out and win.

[Lemnear]

@nexus blue

Developing the deck is a vital part of staying a contender in the metagame. For some reason the deck still develops forth and back. Atm I'm convinced that increasing the count of Birchlores and cutting Llanowars, Fyndhorns, Priests and Regal Forces is an important development to increase the speed of the deck with 4 Cradles now being a must and gaining access to a multitude of black mana for machine-gun-DRS and Cabal Therapy.

With Staff of Domination mentioned and being a former staple in combination with Priest 7 years ago, I instantly expected you having something with Priests and Archdruids in mind. Discussions about the summoning sick Budget Elves destroyed the previous thread so I feared a return of that discussion after Dice_Box asked for a list. I sorry

[Dice_Box]

Developing the deck is a vital part of staying a contender in the metagame. For some reason the deck still develops forth and back. Atm I'm convinced that increasing the count of Birchlores and cutting Llanowars, Fyndhorns, Priests and Regal Forces is an important development to increase the speed of the deck with 4 Cradles now being a must and gaining access to a multitude of black mana for machine-gun-DRS and Cabal Therapy.

I am totally on board with this, you can fire off turn two with these guys and they help the speed at other times. Also, (and this is a big one) they are much much less likely to see a counterspell than Heritage is and it can be made to combo off with.

[nexus blue]

@nexus blue

Developing the deck is a vital part of staying a contender in the metagame. For some reason the deck still develops forth and back. Atm I'm convinced that increasing the count of Birchlores and cutting Llanowars, Fyndhorns, Priests and Regal Forces is an important development to increase the speed of the deck with 4 Cradles now being a must and gaining access to a multitude of black mana for machine-gun-DRS and Cabal Therapy.

With Staff of Domination mentioned and being a former staple in combination with Priest 7 years ago, I instantly expected you having something with Priests and Archdruids in mind. Discussions about the summoning sick Budget Elves destroyed the previous thread so I feared a return of that discussion after Dice_Box asked for a list. I sorry

No worries!! I've got two lists i was running, this "new" elves and my priest-staff shiz that you mentioned above. As fun as that combo/aggro elves is to run out, it just isn't as consistent as this is ATM. Again, I'm just gold fishing so it's not the best testing, but between my last post and this i've GFed 11 games:

6 3rd turn lethal swings with hoofs. 1 of the 6 was with a mulligan, another 1 of the 6 was hardcasting a hoof with a double gaea's cradle (I am correct that i get to tap for the mana before putting one in my GY, right?). the other 4 were 3rd turn NO into hoof.
3 4th turn lethals with hoof. 1 was a NO into a hoof, one was a hardcast hoof and one was a GSZ for a hoof after I overextended on the 3rd turn with a double glimpse that fizzled.
2 5th turn lethals with hoof, both times hoof was hardcast.

In those 11 games Regal only came into play for card drawing 1 time and actually was useful for that 1 time. But I am going to try cutting it for a 3rd birchlore.

I'm running doubles of birchlore/fyndhorn/llanowar with 3 quirion, but might switch that around for 4 quirion and 3 birchlore. i like starting with either a mana dork/DRS or a GSZ into a dryad arbor for double land drops tho. Back to goldfishing with -1 RF/+1 Birchlore.

[nudon]

@nexus blue

Developing the deck is a vital part of staying a contender in the metagame. For some reason the deck still develops forth and back. Atm I'm convinced that increasing the count of Birchlores and cutting Llanowars, Fyndhorns, Priests and Regal Forces is an important development to increase the speed of the deck with 4 Cradles now being a must and gaining access to a multitude of black mana for machine-gun-DRS and Cabal Therapy.

With Staff of Domination mentioned and being a former staple in combination with Priest 7 years ago, I instantly expected you having something with Priests and Archdruids in mind. Discussions about the summoning sick Budget Elves destroyed the previous thread so I feared a return of that discussion after Dice_Box asked for a list. I sorry

I can appreciate you trying to keep the thread on track. It has already flirted with degrading back into talk of sub-optimal builds a couple times over the past few pages. There's been mention of tropical island with only a single flusterstorm in the sb, expensive planeswalkers, wirewood hivemaster, wirewood herald, etc.

In your build with 4 birchlores, wouldn't cutting 1-2 quirion rangers instead of llanowars make more sense? Quirion ranger's untap ability has added value when the creature we're untapping can generate more mana. Cutting llanowars makes this line of play less consistent. DRS is not guaranteed to be able to tap for mana twice on turn 2 while it is usually more desirable to save GSZ for later turns instead of playing it with X=0 turn 1.

In regards to regal force, how many of you have actually lost games because it was in your deck instead of the 2nd craterhoof? While the number of times I NO/GSZ for regal force has dwindled for sure with the printing of craterhoof, it still serves me well when I actually want it. It's nice to reload your hand (while maintaining the superior board position) instead of over-extending into a sweeper next turn. Every once in awhile, I also find myself only being able to GSZ for 7 instead of 8. Long story short, I like having that extra line of play available since it hasn't actually cost me any games.

[Dice_Box]

In your build with 4 birchlores, wouldn't cutting 1-2 quirion rangers instead of llanowars make more sense? Quirion ranger's untap ability has added value when the creature we're untapping can generate more mana. Cutting llanowars makes this line of play less consistent. DRS is not guaranteed to be able to tap for mana twice on turn 2 while it is usually more desirable to save GSZ for later turns instead of playing it with X=0 turn 1.

I am not sure what the effect will end up being, but testing it is not going to do any harm. In my mind though the most effective time to have Llanawar is turn two dropped turn one and ready to help. All other times I find he is just a 1 drop elf with the use of feeding whatever I am trying to do at the time. Turn 3 I am not often tapping one elf for mana, I am tapping 3. For this reason I would like to at least test the Birchlores and see what comes of it. Because a Birchlore does not care what elf you dropped turn one, or if you dropped it turn one it does not care what you drop turn two. No it will just use it and make mana. Lacking that (tap) symbol really makes it a card worthy of notice because it adds some level of redundancy. Also it can act like a Mini Heritage Druid and alongside a Nettle it can win you the game turn two.

In regards to regal force, how many of you have actually lost games because it was in your deck instead of the 2nd craterhoof? While the number of times I NO/GSZ for regal force has dwindled for sure with the printing of craterhoof, it still serves me well when I actually want it. It's nice to reload your hand (while maintaining the superior board position) instead of over-extending into a sweeper next turn. Every once in awhile, I also find myself only being able to GSZ for 7 instead of 8. Long story short, I like having that extra line of play available since it hasn't actually cost me any games.

No idea really. I have not run Force in a long time, I run two Hoof and dependant on who has turned up to the game night, Pro or Thar. Regal Force I think is becoming a card that has been superseded. Yes it is still useful, yes its still cool but the amount of times I have thought "I wish I had a Regal" over "I wish I had a Kill condition" have dropped 10 fold since I started running 2 Hoof.

[nudon]

I know what birchlore ranger does. My question has to do with llanowar elves vs. quirion ranger.

[Kayradis]

I have been Regal Force free for about 3 weeks now.
Never had any regrets.
Cut it. Trust me on this one.

[Dice_Box]

Well what else are you going to take out to up the number of Birchlores? If you want to run more you have to cut something. Quirion for a long time was the card cut, but will the deck now running 3 or sometimes 4 colours you really want to keep your lands safe. All the other cards cover some other part of either its own mini interactive combo or the deck wide combo. When if comes down to it, its all there is free to cut.

As to the strengths of one to the other:
Llanawar:
Pro:
Can be untapped alone to make large amounts of mana.
Is the perfect first turn drop.
Increases the deck's tempo by a turn if dropped early.

Con:
Does not have haste.


Birchlore:
Pro:
Can make any color mana
Can be used Summoning sick and can make use of sick elves
Can speed up the combo alongside Nettle Sentinel
Allows turn 2 kills
Morph means you can get around E Plague if needed or otherwise just have a bigger critter in a beatdown role

Con's:
Can not work alone
Untapping it alone does not speed up anything
Taps down more of your elves in a combo run, making planning more difficult and increasing the risk of a misplay


Lastly because I think She should be here:
Dryad Arbor:
Pro's:
Can be fetched with any number of fetches, most noticeable a turn one GSZ
Can be used with Quirion to make a sudo "Maze of Ith"
Ups the power of a Cradle
Can not be counted
Can be played around locks (Standstill comes to mind)

Cons:
A horrible opening draw
A bad top deck (Most of the time)
Takes up your land drop for the turn
Not an elf

My reason for adding Dryad is that it can take up that mana excel role too, sometime to keep in mind if you are reluctant to drop you Mana elves in the fear of limiting options. Sometimes people kind of forget that Dryad plays the same role as Llanawar.

Hope that answers your question. If not I have totally missed the point and feel free to point out how think I am. (My wife does all the time.)
Dice.

[Lemnear]

I can appreciate you trying to keep the thread on track. It has already flirted with degrading back into talk of sub-optimal builds a couple times over the past few pages. There's been mention of tropical island with only a single flusterstorm in the sb, expensive planeswalkers, wirewood hivemaster, wirewood herald, etc.

In your build with 4 birchlores, wouldn't cutting 1-2 quirion rangers instead of llanowars make more sense? Quirion ranger's untap ability has added value when the creature we're untapping can generate more mana. Cutting llanowars makes this line of play less consistent. DRS is not guaranteed to be able to tap for mana twice on turn 2 while it is usually more desirable to save GSZ for later turns instead of playing it with X=0 turn 1.

In regards to regal force, how many of you have actually lost games because it was in your deck instead of the 2nd craterhoof? While the number of times I NO/GSZ for regal force has dwindled for sure with the printing of craterhoof, it still serves me well when I actually want it. It's nice to reload your hand (while maintaining the superior board position) instead of over-extending into a sweeper next turn. Every once in awhile, I also find myself only being able to GSZ for 7 instead of 8. Long story short, I like having that extra line of play available since it hasn't actually cost me any games.

I have not found the need for Llanowar between DRS, Birchlore, Heritage and GSZ for Arbor as acceleration turn 1. Llanowar has absolutely no value past turn 2 and often past turn 1 if a Birchlore, DRS or Hertiage found it's Way into your Hand too unlike Quirion, which however remains a hated card for me outside the Budget Elves lists to untap Priest/Archdruid.

For my 2 Hoof, 4 NO Split vs. 1 Hoof, 1 Regal, 3 NO testing I just noticed that having more game ending bombs in a Field of RUG, BUG and S&T variants is preferable to fight the Discard and Stifles. I rather kill my opponents than drawin 5. I never looked back. 2 Hoofs is the Way to go. There's still not a decision of "playstyle" imo.

Back to Progress:

We can discuss how important Quirion remains (to safe Bayous from Wasteland) if a) you already run 4 Birchlores to constantly produce Black mana. The Problematic decision is given to your opponent if he Sets himself back a landdrop to deny a Single mana or not and b) how the value of the Second Arbor Decreses if we have less Quirions for the Trick to GSZ into Arbor for an additional activation of the Ranger

[Dice_Box]

I would like to say two things before we talk about this in full.

One: it's a dam good topic to start on

Two: it's worth taking note that the rangers do a few roles very well and the most important is making the deck fast.

Now with the cut of Llanowar you don't have quite the same utility there as you once did, but still the effect stands. Turn two with a ranger is almost always a good turn. You are guaranteed a land drop for the turn, you can untap for Birchlore, you still have the Maze option during their third turn. Useful against something like blade control, an uncountable defence to Jitte can not be undervalued.

I am all for running more Birchlores but I really would like to see where this topic goes, because this one seams like it will be polarising.

[nexus blue]

you still have the Maze option during their third turn.

Ok help me out: I thought that untapping a creature that is attacking does just that - basically gives it vigilance. I thought if I declare that I am attacking and turn a creature sideways, when you quirion ranger it, that doesn't mean it isn't still attacking. So which is it?

If you meant that in terms of untapping one of your own tapped creatures to block or something, please disregard.

I am going to go to 4 each of birchlore and quirion and just run 1/ea of the mana dorks and see what I see. I goldfished another 20+ games with the -1 Regal Force/+1 birchlore ranger and the consistency was similar if not slightly better. Out of those 20-odd games I only used the Regal Force 2x.

[trevaftw]

Ok help me out: I thought that untapping a creature that is attacking does just that - basically gives it vigilance. I thought if I declare that I am attacking and turn a creature sideways, when you quirion ranger it, that doesn't mean it isn't still attacking. So which is it?

If you meant that in terms of untapping one of your own tapped creatures to block or something, please disregard.

He means blocking with Dryad Arbor then bouncing it with Quirion Ranger to replay it next turn.

[nexus blue]

He means blocking with Dryad Arbor then bouncing it with Quirion Ranger to replay it next turn.

duh. lol i'm an idiot and knew that trick, don't know why i didn't think of it.......

thanks.

although i just reread that and he seems to be talking about a Maze of Ith option with a Quirion Ranger - but rangers return a forest to untap a target creature. Wirewood Symbiote allows you to return an Elf to untap a creature - is this what was meant?

[Dice_Box]

Yes that is what I meant. The difference is that you use Quirion Ranger to send back the decks "Land Creature" in the place of Symbiote if you do not have a Symbiote free. It's not ideal due to the cost each turn of your land drop, but in a pinch it works. It does have the advantage though that your land drop for the turn can't be countered thus letting you play against control with a smile on your face.

[HammafistRoob]

It works with either Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor or Wirewood Symbiote + Any elf.

You block with Arbor, then before the damage step you bounce the Arbor back to your hand with Quirion Ranger. Even if the creature you blocked had trample or lifelink, nobody gains or loses life. Untapping a creature will NOT remove it from combat if that's what you're confused about.