Interesting info about MKM, I thought I'll join the club, as I need to sell some staples, but from what I read, MKM seems like a cwot.
this is the exact connundrum that exists. a minotaur must have a CMC above ~3 (otherwise aether vial might be better) and if it is above 3CMC it'll have to be better than Both emrakul and griselbrand. The only thing i really see this card doing is serving as a poor mans S&T....possibly. Wizards still has to deliver on their minotuar clan. I feel like if theos bring a creatures better than emrakul/griselbrand it wont be a minotaur... it'll prob be a blue wizard god or something...Originally Posted by phonics
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why cards are so expensive...hoarders
I disagree. Didgeridoo is a closer match to Aether Vial, not Show & Tell. A minotaur doesn't have to be better than Emrakul / Griselbrand, it just has to be Legacy playable. The biggest issue I see isn't having a single good minotaur (hell, Chameleon Colossus is borderline usable with Didgeridoo), but having a high enough density of playable minotaurs to justify using Didgeridoo.
Hey fellas I've been gone from legacy for about a year and return to find card prices went insane! Wtf? Could someone give a brief rundown of what happened and is this temporary or are zendicar fetches actually worth what force of will is/was?
so if you are going to be running doo for something like chameleon colossus you save 1 mana, and its uncounterable. It seems more practical to run cavern of souls and no doo instead.
I find it hard to justify a 4x slot in a deck for something that is either more mana intensive than aether vial to simply put a 4/4 or heck lets say they give us a 6/6 for 4 mana. anything above 4 mana is high on the curve for legacy and now you might as well start cheating cards into play cause its gonna sit in your hand for a while...
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Well, the ZEN fetches are of same importance and quality as the ONS ones, so they went up in price. Btw, check the price of Delta and Strand. Very funny. I'm leaving the format in a year.
This thing called Modern happened. Lots of Legacy staples are now a Pro Tour Format staple. Supply got crushed by demand.
Pure legacy staples (FoW, etc) are as always on the rise, blacklotusproject.com is a trending source for you. Blue ONS fetches shot through the roof, ZEN fetches are now modern AND legacy staples so supply < demand.
Again, a fall set released a creature that warped the format (deathrite shaman) so three color decks are the norm. Demand for Legacy manabases shot up.
I should have been an economist.
Thanks for the input and the resource. Now I'm really pissed I liquidated a good chunk of my cards before hiatus.. goyfs, fetches, duals hurt the most. On the bright side some of my janky cards have gone up nicely so there's that small consolation I guess. What worries me now is that modern will make legacy into vintage.
fixed
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
I was always a big no-sayer when it comes to reprints, but the trend of last three or so years forced me to change my mind. I always thought that if someone can't afford to play MtG, so be it, and he should either quit or find a better job. But once the prices went ridiculously high and then straight through the roof, I changed my mind.
First of all: I don't care of the collectors (and even less of hoarders), because the collectible part of the game is what doesn't concern me much, so I won't write about something I don't understand. I never had any significant collection and I used my cards for playing 90% of time. I understand the fear of the collectors that their stuff loses value with massive reprints, otoh, I don't think it happens, see Beta stuff.
So, from the gaming point of view, I got these things on my mind:
The idea of cards losing value due to reprints is strange. Yes, it's posible that duals would lose the value because of reprints, otoh, the original ones might keep the value, because weallknowtheAlphaBeta. When it comes to the other cards, yeah, maybe they lose value with reprints, IDK. But what I do know, is the fact that many old cards lost their value because they're bad by nowadays standards in the first place. Remember the good old "4/4, ping you in upkeep", "4/5, upgrade enemy non-wall", "4/4s, flying, vigilance" or "5/5, discard random card when this citp"? Those cards lost value and the last time I checked Erhnam Djinn, it was a $ 0.20 card in a thresh binder, sitting right next to his younger and weaker bro Nettletooth. This card is outdated and (except for the AN/jap. CRO prints) got absolutely no value. And there are thousands such cards, but still: no one cries about how they lost value. But this is just me repeating an old argument... If the collectors are unhappy that their cards' prices sunk (and I do understand them, and in case of real collectors, not hoarders, I even pity them), they shouldn't be angry only at the people who want to play this game for reasonable money, but also at WotC that prints cards that kick the old ones out of competition.
I started playing in times when Erhnamgeddon was a real deck (and btw, I'd love to play it again). Even if you built it on a budget (read: without Savannahs, use Brushland instead; no pimp Djinns, just the CRO ones), you still had very powerful deck. It costed you... nothing. Compared to nowadays decks, the price was just ludicrous, and we're talking about a tier 1,5 deck at worst.
Erhnamgeddon cca 1995:
Money cards: 4 Savannahs, 4 Djinns, 3-4 Serra Angels, 2-3 Geddons, 1-2 Icy Manipulators (pre-IA), 0-2 Wrath of God. Note that back in those times, neither Balance nor StP were money cards, unless you were into pimping. You may add 1-2 Sylvan Library to the list of expensive cards. (Btw, in before the bash: yeah, Icy Manipulator, Sylvan Library, Storm Seeker, Erhnam Djinn and Land Tax were expensive before their respective reprints, so this may be a good "reprints kill collections" argument, except that I don't think it's completely true - the original cards retained value, while what became cheaper was the deck alone: now you had the possibility of building it on budget). Even with Savannahs this deck cost you what, 60 to 100 bucks?
Fast forward in time, compare it to it's offspring Maverick. Should I manually count it? I think that what google found me (1500 USD low) is quite reasonable. Or unreasonable, depends on the point of view...
Now, what I'm trying to say is that we can't be 100% sure what the reprints do or do not to the secondary market. Take for example the Chronicles, which some ppl hate and believe that they were a fiasco. This edition lead to the things we all know, and ok, lets say the collectors/hoarders lost. (And they did lost, no questions, Storm Seeker is a 30 USD card no more.) But then again: did they only lost? Would the Storm Seeker (and Erhnam Djinn, Icy Manipulator, Serra Angel, etc.) retain their value in a world of Goyfs? Or... Will there be enough players to keep the game going on and to increase the prices over the years, without the Chronicles fiasco and Revised/4th Edition reprints? Is there any way how to stochastically model these situations and tell with 101% accuracy that "reprints lead to this and that"? No way. Maybe their collections of Chromiums and Strip Mines would collect dust and bear no money value, see Star Wars, Wyvern, etc. any kind of the discontinued CCG from the early 1990's.
The increased popularity of Magic is a reason for the insane prices, of course. Maybe this could be solved by massive (re)prints, otoh, WotC will print just so much stuff they might sell. No one may expect them to take care of secondary market, it's not their job. Yet the overall trend of decks becoming more and more expensive is unsustainable and it will definitely kick the people out of game. (Real-life story.) It isn't a tragedy, after all, it's not like someone is dying of hunger. Otoh, I just don't get one thing...
Magic, similarly to stamps, has it's own meaning outside of being collectible. I even read somewhere that the gaming factor is the most important for WotC. Ok, so lets imagine the situation when a post company stops to print stamps. And not because e-mail killed postal services, but because there are those strange people who fear that their blue Mauritius may lose value. Ok, guys. We understand your concern. But there are people who want to send letters, you know? So get over it, we'll print the stamps.
Now, while in the world of stamps it'll be stupid to reprint blue Mauritius, because any other stamp with the same printed value is good enough to send the letter, this doesn't work in MtG, because dual >>> shockland, and we all know it and that's why I write symphonies instead of slinging dung, beating my chest, and using Shocklands. The WotC's unwillingness to print stamps so that we may send the letters is maybe understandable, but it's extremely annoying. If they'd reprint a new-frame duals, would they really sink the prices of the original ones? Is it too much to ask that we may play the game they produce? Because, and this should be obvious, one of the main MtG design features is that thing called mana and it's producers, so why are WotC so reluctant to give us what we need?
If at least they'd be so generous as to cut the painlands/filter lands/karoos of their reprint sheets. You know what? You may (and should) very easily reprint the ONS fetches in one of the base sets. (Also, stop filling those sets with utter rubbish, thx.) And you know what? You may reprint them quite often. Ok, maybe not in every base set, because we all understand that painlands, filter lands and karoos also have thier place in MtG, but why don't you reprint it at least in one out of three basic sets? Am I once again asking for too much?
Because, and listen carefully: I won't continue with this magical cards thing. Not today, not tomorrow, not by the end of the year, but there will come a time when I'll stop to send letters, as your stamps are too expensive, just because some random dude sitting on his Mauritiuses means much more for you than I do. I'm fine with it, just that it is completely unnecessary. But then again, if your Sales Dpt. realized that it's better for you to do it like you do it, so be it.
One last note: If WotC doesn't do anything about the cards' prices, than I expect a flood of HQ forgeries in the years to come. Heck, maybe they already started to circulate, and we just din't realized that. That's the other reason why I'm more and more inclined to cash out. Cause I won't waste my money on scrap paper.
/rant
I have always predicted that it is already happening in places like China, etc where a lot of the old printer setups get sold when they are upgraded. I used to work for a dentist that had a 4 color press int he basement and we always joked about trying to make plates of cards but that was 15 years ago and the effort wouldn't have been worth the cost. Now with 3d engraving etc it would not cost much (relatively) to do something like that. Then what happens if it is ever found out. Every high value card would dip in price fast.
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A forgery is a forgery. By that I mean anyone who has access to a printer and cardboard material has capacity to print high-market value items. Reason why we are not seeing any dip is because authenticity tests are a thing. If someone is able to make cards spec'd to standards (the ink, paper, print, cut are all exact), then it won't really matter if they are real or not.
Really? You mean it really doesn't mater? Then read something about the history of forgery.
And I'm not even getting into the area of "I want my stuff real, not real-like, because principles". The main trouble is/will be that anyone thinking about a used Xerox is doing it wrong. I'm talking about industrial forgery using the exact same print process and the similar/same printing machines. That's when you get 99% real-like fakes, which are... sadly still fakes. And it might be you who boughts them bona fide because you failed to notice those fractions of mm that make the card less thick. And not only you lose money once it'll be realized those are fakes, but moreover you might get into real trouble when selling this stuff over the web... heck, even when selling it player-to-player in your LGS. Never heard of legal consequences?
Oh wait, why I'm even trying... If you don't think how big trouble this might be, then I'm fine with it. Also, I'm not saying this must happen, but all I'm saying is that it might happen. There were forgers who made false money, passports, Rembrandts, anything. And this needs helluva good skill and is not just an infrigment of copyright laws. Still they did it. Where's the trouble for a band of immoral dudes with the failing printing house that say "screw this corvee with books and leaflets, lets print some money instead". An believe me, if you think that it's completely impossible, then you know nothing about polygraphy. And if you think that such people don't know about the process of making cards, then you know nothing about the amount of skill and knowledge required in polygraphy. There are only three necessary factors for this to happen: You need to have the machinery (very likely in a printing house), you need to have the knowledge of the process (very likely in polygraphy) and you need to know there's a product similar to money but without all of it's safety measures. Then take few men willing to risk a little and the collectors' community is in world of trouble.
Again: I'm not saying it will happen. But it is possible. There are hundred thousands printing house in the world and not each and every is owned by the just man that's a mix of Abe Lincoln, Chris Adams and Mother Theresa. And in a world of Ebay, Facebook, online bank accounts and such, it might be the smiley guys' printing house in your neighborhood just as well as some greybeard-lead workroom in a garage on Calcutta suburbs, who'd rob you.
Individual can not, but small company / family bussiness with industry standard equipment easily could... No doubt some nifty chinese guys do so several years imho... but does that pay off in larger scale? I mean, any serious attempt encounters small market /distribution problems... 5000 Seas in your backpack are bit of a problem you know... so you can buy a shop and start a new nerdy mafia branch... or better just fake some pattented plastic crap in millions...
Yep, Martin, you're right. It's more than obvious they won't be doing it with the high-end cards like Lotus, JTMS, duals, Goyfs and such for the same reasons they won't be making forgeries of 100 USD bills. On the other end of spectrum there are cards like an everyday Hurloon Minotaur (oh wait, there's Theros and Didgeridoo) so, like an everyday Hill Giant that have zero price and they'd effectively lose money with each sheet they'd print. But I wouldn't be surprised if there are/will be forgeries of $ 20 staples (like shocklands) which they might print unnoticed for years. No one is especially cautious when spending 20 bucks.
Thankfully MtG money are still not that liquid like the real money, so lets hope this will never happen, but if the prices go up by say an order, I'll become paranoidly cautious when buying things outside the brick-and-mortar shops.
$17000
that is the cost to set up to print sheets of cards.
That is a used 4 color press
a cutter with custom dies
a plate making machine
the card stock is just plain standard card stock and the ink is just the standard inks there is nothing unique to only magic cards. Even the glue used for each half of the card that gives it the blue layer is off the shelf.
The real issue is that any card that can not be told from the original for all intent and purposes is the same when it comes to mass produced items. There is just not any security features on cards that make them counterfeit resistant.
This is one of my biggest worries because it gets cheaper every year to set-up to print your own. How soon before the barrier to entry is so high that it is cheaper to just buy the equipment and do it yourself.
How long before a large scale operation destroys the secondary market and killing the game. I have proxies that without a loop and a blacklight you can not tell are fake, I purchased them 5 or 6 years ago and I know the person had them for 4 or 5 years before that. Technology has come so far that I am pretty sure that solid ink printers may soon be able to replicate cards perfectly. Then you don't have to worry about cardstock you just go and blank a basic land from that set.
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Forgery's are a problem. If the forgerys become good enough its better than printing money because you can print more than 100 at a time. and buying cards at brick and mortar shops wont really solve that problem. Imagine someone with a backpack of fakes goes to a GP and unloads them at dealers. No one really pays attention to shocks or $20 cards so its easy cash. Heck, sell a playset of duals cause your getting out of legacy. Thats like 2-3k
Dealers buy collections all the time and probably wouldnt think anything of it. If there are 5 dealers at a GP and you sell them a collection each, Imagine it like 5000 a GP. Sell fake cards on ebay. Or if the forgerys are good enough you could even get em graded. If they get graded they are as good as the real thing and boom, We have a full blown problem. If they start printing foils / rare misprints and promos that could be a real issue. The problem isnt getting caught printing them its getting caught distributing them. If they are smart they could easily get away with it. Standard cards are incredibly valuable anyways and with the mass quantities they are printed in nowdays that would be the way to go.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
And how much time does it take to set up plates and reproduce the rosette pattern accurately? Once you do that, is it even possible to produce a forgery that doesn't have noticeable color shifting? I am not a printer, but these considerations make duplicating cards sound far more difficult than you suggest. Buying the tools and resources is only one part of it.
Take two MtG booster, open them and then check the back sides. You don't even need to try this with Mirage vs. Onslaught, and you'll still see the color differences. No technology is 100% coirrect and you'll get any sort of small differencies, or even bigger ones: see miscuts, misprints, etc. Take your playset of Confidants and look at them carefully. See that? They're not identical. These things will pass without batting an eye. What do you do when you purchase a card? You look on the borders, on quality of corners, you look for scratches. Other than that? Do you control color saturation? Hue? Thickness of cardboard? Do you check dimensions with caliper? (Btw, even at the size and fabric of an MtG card, the material still changes a slightly bit due to temperature and humidity, so you may see small differencies even between the two cards of one booster.) Do you at least bend-test the cards? I don't think so. Nobody buying some 15 USD crap with nibbled corners makes any sort of tests.
Once again: I don't think that there are any important number of forged cards in circulation right now. But I fear that with the everincreasing prices, these may show up in the future. Look: people were robbed of their cards. People were assaulted because of them. Few people were even killed. Is it that unrealistic scenario that a band of miscreants decides to print false Magic cards? There are false jeans, false CDs, false alcohol, false marriages. Why on earth Magic should be different? But: the jeans do not concern me, I don't wear so-called "brands". But cards...
Actually there are major color variations in old sets even within the set itself. Get about 2 dozen mixed Visions cards for example and you will find 5 or 6 different color variations at least even with the same card. It still happens with current sets but color matching with a half assed scanner is not really that hard.
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