Originally Posted by GrugalM
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Massacre seems very mediocre. It gets shut down by Teeg and it kills you own Agents, Deathrites and Strixes too. Against Maverick for instance, if they have a Knight and you have a Goyf, even when all the little stuff dies you're still probably going to lose to the Knight getting bigger than Goyf.
Teeg on the other hand i pretty bad against us postboard, most player i knwo will board them out, as they are not really afraid of force nor Jace when the want to resolve their Zeniths and keep playing Elspeth and co.
It is a total metagame call, like Chill. Massacre is bad when you can not really cast it, but it is insane when your opponent doesn't expect it.
Last tourney i killed Grim Lavamancer + Geist + Delver with a Massacre that could not get Spell Pierced and that singlehandedly won the game. I prefer Golgari Charm or Deed mostly though.
Knight is the only card you need to Decay when you hold Massacre, so i'm fine with that.
Asking GT about Flusterstorm:
A few months later when he realizes that Shardless Agent is not good against Combo: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=57839
I had to laugh a lot ^^- and i know other people who will laugh more^^
Today i played with a Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce etc SB at a small local tournament. I was paired 4 times against Combo and lost only one match, so the best approach to beat combo decks is to side Shardless Agent out for Counterspells. Shardless BUG is favored against allmost all fair decks (except Jund and a few fringe decks like BUG Standstill etc.), so you should definetely play some cards that are only really good against Combo.
TheRiedl on Magic Online
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Did I ever say Flusterstorm was bad? Your reading comprehension needs work.
To all those who are playing Gerry´s List. How do you handle a resolved Mirran Crusader?
DnT and some Maverick are playing him at least in the SB. Unfortunately Lilli isnt often an answer due to small pets around him. In addition often Maverick can Fetch into Dryad Arbor or DnT can vial into anything else.
This guy is one of the reasons I am thinking to siwtch to Lejay´s list! In Europe a lot of players are on DnT or Maverick. Maybe at states there is a different Meta but at the moment I cant imagine to not have anythig against this badass....
Golgari Charm + Liliana, Jace, and discard are the only real answers. I had Sower of Temptation in my sideboard for a little bit also. Obviously it can be difficult to deal with, but you also have some lines you can take to kill it. Red for Whipflare is reasonable if you expect lots of little white creatures.
D+T can pretty effectively make you pay for going to four colors though. Mana denial, yeah, but also it has a lot of ways to handle DRS (STP and Revoker plus incidental stuff like Mangara, Jitte, etc, and then the SB stuff like Sunlance and RiP - it's a lot). Generally, if you can gain card advantage of any sort without spending too many resources it works out. G1 Snapcaster is good, but bad g2. Confidant. Mystic, all good. D+T players hate to see Dread of Night most, though it is pretty darned narrow, and not a guarantee. But that is the kind of hate you are going to need. I think I like Golgari Charm best if you can reasonably cast it, but there is a reason D+T likes to face this deck.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I see that Leejay is splashing Red in his list, do you think we are stretching ourselves to far if we start to explore a 4th color?
Deathblade is doing it.
Anyone have experience with that type of build?
Anyone else who's currently running a red splash tired of seeing it wasted? I'd like to mull over an idea regarding the red splash manabase:
Top Decks Play Blue Play Wasteland Does access to red sideboard cards provide utility against this matchup? Canadian Thresh x x REB BUG Control x x REB Jund x Yes, firesprout or whipflare Maverick x firesprout whipflare Elves firesprout Miracle Control x REB Sneak Attack x REB OmniTell x REB Team America x x Yes ANT x REB Death and Taxes x Firesprout Blade control x x REB Deathblade x x Yes Patriot x x Yes
So these were the point leaders on the council. Of the 10 decks that play blue, 6 play wasteland. The others 3, Maverick, D&T, and Jund are all vulnerable to red's board sweepers.
In fact, I may go as far as to say decks that run wasteland are generally the most vulnerable against a red splash! How many decks can you think of that run wasteland where this isn't the case?
Think about it... Does Patriot, deathblade, blade control, bug control, canadian thresh or team america want to see a REB? Does Death and Taxes, Jund or maverick actually want to see a firesprout?
Having said this, when we're trying to splash a color to help up these matches, why are we relying on a dual like volcanic island? A card that is vulnerable to wasteland, and yet is the only access to the color splash we need?
The most commonly card hit by wasteland is usually your volcanic island. And if you're playing a deck that's going to need REB or Firesprout or whipflare, that red mana source is pretty important.
Considering this, how about a manabase that consists of all red fetchlands and one basic in the sideboard instead of a deck that runs one volcanic island and mainly blue fetches? Since over half the blue decks you're playing against will try to cut you off red when you actually would need it and most of the aggro decks will try to cut you off your sweepers. If you run all red fetchlands, you won't be reducing the chances of actually grabbing the card. And your manabase will always be allowed to pick up what ever color you want should you run multiple bayous. For this reason, I think it's worth considering a manabase like the one below.
Main Deck
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Mountain
Summary:
If all Decks that run Wasteland Don't Like Red Sideboard Cards.
And all Decks that run wasteland will try to use wasteland to keep you off of your Red Splash.
Therefore, Run red source that is immune to wasteland.
Last edited by luckme10; 08-01-2013 at 02:30 AM.
@luckme10 Great analysis. You convinced me! But I am not the most experienced Shardless Player aroundI am looking forward to what the 'pro's 'have to say.
Currently Playing: Scapefit , Shardless BUG, Team America,
vs. MonoU OmniTell, using Gerry T's most-recent list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=57839), how do we sideboard?
- 2 Baleful Strix
- 4 Abrupt Decay
- 2 Creeping Tar Pit
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Liliana of the Viel
+1 Hymn to Tourach
+2 Thoughtseize
Tar Pit seems bad as we need a quick clock vs. MonoU OmniTell and we don't need to worry about land destruction. Liliana seems kind of bad, as it conflicts with holding counterspells (especially FOW), but Liliana is good because she gets around Leyline of Sanctity. Golgari Charm is good as it destroys Dream Halls and Omniscience before any sorceries can be cast, but Abrupt Decay is good because it destroys Defense Grid (but is otherwise a dead card). Maelstrom Pulse seems like a must, as it hits LoS and Defense Grid.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
At least for Lejay´s list REB doesnt fit the gameplan well. It is everything about boardpresence and card advantage.
Where Whipflare often trade 1:2 and can change the board presence to our favor it is also something you like to cascade into. REB trade 1:1 and is mostly worse if cascaded.
I don´t think that one Badlands makes our Landbase drasticly more fragile. Be aware that there is also no need for more red sided duals because we have also DRS and the Agent for Whipflare.
In my opinion, the only option you have when you try to splash red is to play a single Badland or Volcanic. First of all, a Mountain in the SB is an absolutely waste of a sideboard slot. Secondly the manabase you posted sux (don't take it personal). With all these red fetchies, you can't allways fetch the duals you want, and this is bad.Main Deck
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Mountain
Summary:
If all Decks that run Wasteland Don't Like Red Sideboard Cards.
And all Decks that run wasteland will try to use wasteland to keep you off of your Red Splash.
Therefore, Run red source that is immune to wasteland.
I wouldn't cut all 4 Decays because of Defense Grid. Keeping Shardless Agent postboard sounds like a lot of fun. Revealing all these Golgari Charms and Flusterstorms with no targets on board.... I never tried Shardless Agent and Flusterstorm together because it sounds really bad.
I'm really interested why he only played two copies of Flusterstorm, maybe i can learn something.
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Gerry, how would you change your list if you were to splash red for whip flare?
Good point about Shardless and Golgari/Flusterstorm/Abrupt Decay. However, Shardless helps with the U count for FOW. 4 Ancestral, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Flusterstorm, 3 Jace, 3 FOW = 16 U cards. Keeping the Shardless ups the count to 20, granting a better chance of having a U card in your hand to pitch to FOW. I'm not sure that this is the right answer, but it's a tough question and that's why I'm asking here.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
With this dual mana base, these red fetchlands will always be able to get you access to the 3 colors that you need, regardless of which one you pull. While the vulnerability may be more prevalent against decks able to draw multiple wastelands, if I'm playing against a deck with multiple wastelands, I think I'd rather be protected against the red splash because those red sideboard cards are exactly the cards I would want against wasteland based decks.
Hello Everyone!
I've been playing RUG, Stoneblade, TES, Elves and Junk a lot lately, and I've decided to try something different. I took apart all my decks (except TES - it's just too fun), and built this one. Here's my current list and my ideas below.
Lands (22)
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
Spells
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Force of Will
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Baleful Strix
So far I am liking the deck - though I've only goldfished some. I do have a few questions for those who have more experience with the deck (mostly with regards to sideboard):
- VS. Combo - I have designed the board so that Shardless Agent is still useful after boarding. My current combo hate is Force, Hymn, Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique. Only the Clique and Force can't be cascaded into, and all but Force are proactive. My gameplan is to take their hand apart and kill them before they can recover. I'm curious if this is a viable strategy, or if the use of more reactionary cards like Flusterstorm is required.
- VS. Tribal/Aggro - I have included two Jitte and two Golgari Charm primarily for tribal match-ups. I suspect the Strix would be useful for more aggro oriented tribal (not Elves). I am enjoying the discussion of Whipflare, but I'm not sure I really like it that much. It seems this deck is relatively dependent upon Deathrite Shaman for a long term clock and both Whipflare and Firespout kill him.
- Other Sideboard Choices - I included Sower of Temptation for bomb decks like Jund and Maverick, and I guess if I run into an actual show and tell deck he she could come in. Spellbombs I like a lot because they continue the theme of the deck (physical card advantage) while providing effective and early graveyard disruption (in addition to Shaman). And the only thing I haven't mentioned is Lilly... I think she's pretty obvious - also for bomb decks.
I'm looking forward to playing this deck more and there should be some fun discussions here! Please feel free to dissect my build as much as you like!
Glad you decided to try this deck out.
Anyway...you mentioned how you designed your sideboard to work with Agent, but with the exception of a few cards, between that and your already present main deck strategy it doesn't seem like you changed much from lists a few weeks back. I'm with the idea that Agent hurts the combo game. Sure you can rely on taking their hand apart, but it takes a few of those spells to really be effective. Its more of a 'slow down a second'. Leylines are a thing, and that stops your discard. You have 2 Golgari Charm, but thats 2 more spots in the deck your trying to fit in there with Agent. I'd still just drop the Agent and run with Flusterstorm and whatever other combo hate thats applicable for that deck. The more things you add that the Shardless Agent cannot cascade into, the worse the deck becomes.
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