What do you mean by that? I did face the problem of CB resolving and not being able to resolve a 3 or 5 mana spell due to them floating the according cmc on top.Originally Posted by Lejay
In my experience if there is a competent miracles player who knows what we are doing he does not need to have a "crazy sideboard", but adjust his anti combo/control slots a bit to attack show & tell variants.
My judgement
Preboard against the average build with 3 CB main we are favored. Post-board their matchup gets a lot better whereas our options to improve are pretty limited. (not like against other decks where leyline or grid is a house). Therefore overall the matchup is even to slightly unfavorable.
Lejay, your heroic acts from the past before nobody knew the deck do not count. They simply don't compare to situations where people with similar skill and knowledge of each others decks face each other today.
Currently playing: Elves
Really the only way to deal with CB in this situation is to have the force for it or play the discard package and hope to discard it before they play it.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Look, I respect your results with the deck and all, but "is stupid" is a bit out of line here. It's pretty good in the deck, as both another win-con, another SnT target and serves pretty well as "ANOTHER EMRAKUL?" if the usual one gets removed. It's an evolution, and you can like it or not. It's not like it changes the deck dramatically. A branch, if you like. You don't like the thought of another Emrakul? Just keep playing Probe/OpenSlot. There's hardly an "ultimate" decklist to be had, but we all play the same 55-60 cards, and add minor tweaks against local meta.
As for CB, I've only played against it once and handily plowed right through it, but a fellow LGS-goer got shut royally down with Top into CB into Meddling Mage the last time I played there. It wasn't pretty.
I'm also seconding the miserable Miracles matchup. The only way I've found to really beat them is to go aggressively for the combo and try and win before they establish CB/Top. This is a matchup where I really feel we can't sit around and sculpt the perfect hand before going off. While they don't have a super fast clock on us, you need to treat CB/Top as a clock since once they get that down, it becomes extremely tough for us to combo off.
Reanimator also seems horrible for us. Any UB deck packing both hand disruption and countermagic is rough on combo, much less a faster combo deck packing it.
Maybe it's because I'm still playing Trickbind and 4 Cunning Wish, but I find the Miracles matchup to be a cake walk. Active CB/top rarely matters. Venser hasn't been much of an issue, with Canonist being the thing that I lose to most often (and even then, Wipe Away is a card that I play). It even gets better when I side in my mix of Duress and Thoughtseize postboard. Discard also helps fight fast combo. Perhaps people having trouble should try not cutting the cards (2 Trickbind in the 75, 4 Wish) that let you have a chance against harder matchups. Just sayin'.
Adan, are you still on my list?
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Hello, thought i'd give a little input on the deck after a local tournament this past weekend.
Not near as big as we thought it would be at all but none the less played a fair amount of different decks.
Yes this is my first post on the source, but i've been reading for quite some time now so stay the pitchforks a little bit lol, very bored at work so figured i'd give my input on the deck. Might be some typos and its a bit of a wall of txt.
First off i'll start by saying I love the deck and mad props to Lejay and Emiln for there work with it, and all the other brewers for there inputs such the black/blue version which I was very close to playing but I ended up going with this list.
Lands:
3 Polluted delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding tarn
1 Misty rainforest
3 City of Traitor's
9 Island
Spells:
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cunning Wish
4 Enter the Infinite
4 Show and Tell
4 ominisence
3 Dream Halls
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
2 Emrakrul
S/B
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Defense Grid
1 Pact of Negation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Slaughter pact
1 trickbind
1 Release the Ants
1 Eladamri's call
1 Intuition
Round 1 Vs (Not sure) either Deathblade or shardless bug
He was on the draw, I mull to four and keep a no lander (not going to three and I rarely ever mull to 4) but I do have the combo in my hand.
He plays a land and passes turn, I top deck a poullted delta crack it and pass turn. He plays a land and says go, i remember thinking in my head "I hope this is a city because i'm going for it" long behold a city of traitors and looking at the combo in my hand. Being at a low hand and playing from behind already I say screw it and went for it with not counter back up, knowing full well it was a bad idea as he was playing blue. But the show and tell resolves he says "yup", I drop ominisence he drops wasteland. I cast Enter the infinite, he says "yup" i pick up my deck and he scoops. On to round two after not seeing anything.
I figure he must have discard so i'm more worried about that then counters I think I brougt in my leylines +4 Leyline, -1 Emrakrul, -1 Probe, -1 Dream Halls, -1 Force of Will.
Second Game didn't last long as I resolved my one of emrakrul early on and won, I asked him if he was running counters he said yes but just didn't see any as well as discard but didn't see any of that either which would have mattered because I didn't mull to a leyline as my hand was pretty stacked.
Round two Vs RUG Thresh
Playing a buddy of mine I know the match is iffy. Gameone I emrakrul him and he scoops.
Game two S/B - 1probe, -1 Dream Halls, -3 Force of Will, +3 Defense Grids, +1 FlusterStorm, +1 Pact of negation. I understand some people might think siding dream halls out is a bad idea I just find them clunky and a backup plain usually and agasint a fast clock much to slow, forces because my defense grids will win me the game if it resolves and not 2-1 myself, pact of negation over force because agasint a deck with so many counters i'd rather have a free counter if i'm going off then pitching cards and flusterstorm just for those counter wars. I liked keeping in the emrakuls during these matches because it tends to be a faster win con then with dream halls. (how i seen it anyways)
I try to go off once with the force backup but he has REB and a spell pierce and quickly beats me down with his turn one delver t2 flip and double gofy.
Game 3 im on the play
T1 Drop island, and cantrip, he has no t1 drop.
T2 drop a land, cantrip and pass turn
T3 drop City which i've been setting up for my defense grid, tap 3 for that with my one island backup for flusterstorm I force his Force and then flusterstorm his spell pierce hes tapped out.
T4 Cast S&T dropping Omni, cast cunning wish to get intiution to get 3 Enter the infinites and combo off. He wishs me luck and says didn't know defense grid was a thing or would have boarded in ancient grudge as being so low on lands (2 when he died) doesn't really let him do much.
Round 3 Vs UWR
Game one- Hes another buddy of mine and we played a bunch the night before, know its not my best match up as hes playing a home brew and running alot more counters in his main then most versions.
I keep a shaky hand with dream halls and 3 lands and know thats going to be my game plan from the start. Long story short I play like a donky while he has pressure on the next turn i'm supposed to combo off I crack a fetch getting rid of my known city of traitors on top and thus denying my ability to dream halls and cast enter the next turn and win as he showed me a hand with no counters.
Game two Same S/B as with RUG
We battle for a bit I end up having to pact a stifle so I could protect my fetch trigger allowing me to win two turns later, I thought i was dead because he revealed a wasteland earlier off a card and thought it was in his hand to allow him to destroy my city of traitors and deny my the ability to pay its upkeep. But, he brainstormed/fetched it away a turn earlier to my benefit and I combo off with less then 5 life left.
Game Three - he gets me low I know dead next turn unless I pick up a mana so I can intutition (wished for a turn earlier) for show and tell and then cast it the same turn. i pick up my 6th land and cast both to drop omni and enter. Go go top decking lol.
Round 4 U/R delver Burn
Yet another friend of mine (we were half the tournament lol)
Game 1 He gets me pretty good with t1 delver t2 flip into another delver and eot brainstorm to flip his second delver with burn on the following turns.
Game 2 Same SB plan as the past two matchs (loving the defense grid) I get a early Emrakrul and win.
Game 3 He mulls to 4 keeps a no lander and passes turn i start off slow he top decks a goblin guide and starts bashing, he ends up countering two show and tells before I finally land my thrid one and fight for it and I win off enter combo. His hand of double REB and double spell pierce was pretty good.
Round 5 -merfolk
I wanted to play this match up to see how it would be, some said it would be good others bad, we were both hungry and being top seed we just draw to get food.
Top8 Top seed going in, feels like the playoffs, worst spot to be top of your division almost like its bad luck lol.
I get paired agasint Reanimator I don't feel so warm and fuzzy inside. (couple days before friends were writing down the number of decks they thought to be represented there and I looked at the list and said what about reanimator, they laughed and said who still plays that?)
Game 1- I keep a subpar hand and eventually he show and tells before I do lol, i'm feeling great until he drops angel of despair to destroy my dream halls, I pick up no more relevent spells staring at double enter the infinite and pact of negation until i'm dead.
S/B I didn't really have much agasint him, -1 probe, -1 Dream Halls and bring in flusterstorm and trickbind, I wanted to bring in the slaughter pact for iona, but felt having 4 wishs for it to be better then a one of.
Game 2- he entombs EOT i counter and next turn Emrakrul and end it quickly.
Game 3- He EOT entombs for Iona and on his turn reanimates on blue while i have no force for it ( woudln't have mattered with hsi force and daze hand) I scoop and wish him luck (he ended up beating U/W Miracles and merfolk to win the whole thing).
So after a few weeks of playing this deck and the small tournament i'm very impressed with it. Seems very overpowered.
The only things I thought about changing with the leylines in the side, my friend on U/W miracles cut his before the tournament as he didn't see much discard I decided to keep mine in after seeing a dead guy ale guy sleeving up his hymns. but if I did cut them It would of been for a second flusterstorm, wipe away, noxious revival and surgical extraction which would have helped alot vs reanimator.
the only thing I can think to change vs that match up is to play the black version for the discard which is great agasint other combo decks and possibly doom blade or some other black removal to deal with iona I just dont know if shes or reanimator is worth the hate instead of playing leylines even if I hardly used them all weekend. Just seems like a deck you want to dodge as it isnt the most popular right now andthey tend to combo off faster then us.
Playing with two emrakruls main I liked alot as it gave me more access to show and tell win with it and or just drop him hit for 15 then drop the second and bash away again, almost effectivly infinite turns until you win maybe its win more but i liked it.
Card i've been thinking about cutting is Eldamri's call, I used it quite a bit leading up to the tournament but since changing to the two emrakrul version it seemed almost unessasry as I usually had one or the main combo anyways.
Sideboard cards of the day though were defense grid and flusterstorm loved how if i resolved a defense grid I won the game. I'm sure it wouldn't be the best idea agasint combo though.
Anyways my little update just from experiance, death and taxes is a horrible match up as well as reanimator, I may start testing the black version even if it opens myself up to wastelands for the deck stacking ability of lim's vault and some more answers to things outside of blue.... Anyways if anyone has any better ideas for sideboard cards and or ways to deal with reanimator and cannoist let me know. Enjoying the deck going to play again with in a tourney here in sept!
I told why it is stupid. Maybe I wasn't precise enough. First what is the situation where you need two or more emrakuls in the deck after resolving enter the infinte since I reminded you are supposed to clash with enter ?
As a clash card against Extirpate ? I said in the primer that against that possibility you should clash with omniscience. That will be enough against decks running that extirpate.
Lethal board post annihilator 6 with additionnally let's say sylvan safekeeper and enough lands post annihilator to beat multiple wishes ? And you couldn't win the clash ? Even if an elf guy didn't already kill you with this board and precisely plays the emrakul kill and reveals it clashing you can still noxious the rta, make him draw with vision charm and finish him in the next upkeep after he drew his emrakul. That would mean he needs to run several emrakul or have active shaman in addition, or an active fetchland and be lucky. And unless he has a blocker you only have about 5 damage to deal with RtA !
So if there is not a strategical option that warrants a second emrakul why is 2 the good number ? Why not 3 or 4 ? Like between 80 and 90% of the people I talked to about this deck on forums or irl wanted to remove the first Emrakul, so I find it quite amusing that now people want to run more of them. The new rules aren't an excuse, they don't change anything to that since with enter resolved you had enough cantrips to refind one of them if you played two. I even run eladamri's call so that makes it pretty simple.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Lejay - I think you've been quite clear, not sure why people want a second one. The second Emrakul is clearly a wasted slot in a deck that doesn't have enough room as it is.
As you constantly reiterate, it all comes down to lists. I can definitely believe the deck is favored against builds without hatebears postboard. However, the good builds of Miracles I've run into will be playing some combination of multiple Meddling Mage, Canonist, and Clique postboard in addition to Force and Counterbalance.
From playing this matchup, the first hate permanent isn't difficult to play through, it's the second or third. If they can use their counterspells to slow you down enough to resolve one or more hate permanents, it can be extremely difficult to win.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I think 2 Emrakul is overkill also. I think the benefit of being able to take infinite turns post EtI isn't worth the extra maindeck slot the second Emrakul takes up.
As I said in an earlier post (and as others have stated), how often are you really going to be in a situation where even if you lose an RtA clash somehow, you can't just cast Emrakul and attack them to death with it?
Once I have resolved eti but Ive run out of cunning wishes. Is there a way for me to recycle my graveyard using emrakul and trigger his shuffle graveyard. Thanks!
I have played 5 or 6 tournaments until now with DreamHalls and have played Miracles at least once in every tournament. Only last week in Hassloch I lost my first game (I still won 2-1) because I kinda played like a retard and ran into a Venser.
Miracles usually won't protect their Counterbalance when your FoW it because they cannot afford to throw away a Force for a Counterbalance that isn't likely to counter the Show and Tell that might follow.
And even if they stick Counterbalance and Top after countering a SnT here and there, DreamHalls is lights out for Miracles.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Except when they float a FoW on top of their library.
Thank you, Captain Obvious, but that is very unlikely as they only have 4 CC5 cards in their deck with no library manipulation beyond SDT and BS.
Chances a higher for me to win a lottery than playing a Miracles player who has at least two counters in hand, CB+Top active and CC1, 3 and 5 floating on top ALL THE TIME.
I can only see Miracles becoming a bad matchup if they would play at least 3 Geist of Saint Thraft in their SB. He would be good as he's a 3-turn-clock that cannot be handled, he's blue so redundant copies can be pitched and he can be flipped to SnT/CWish with CBalance.
Without a clock, Miracles is a very good matchup. Period.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
*sigh* ... usually if people argue in such a polarizing way they are wrong.
Sure, counter-top is no problem at all. They "only" have SD.top (+ fetchlands) and BS for library manipulation and with only 4 cmc5 cards there is no chance of countering dream-halls, which is a 3of in your deck and surely easy to find if you cannot resolve cantrips. /sarcasm . I am not saying that CB is end of game, but it is just ignorant to say that it is meaningless. There might also be a double standard if you claim that it is unlikely to float cmc5 on top while listing FoW as a viable answer to stop their CB from resolving.
Anyhow people should stop arguing in such a polarizing way. There are people complaining about a horror matchup (or at least talk about painful experiences) and others who "never lost a game". Both is bullshit. It is obviously favored G1 and probably unfavorable postboard (depending on opponent) because the miracles player has a lot more options to improve the deck than we have. What is important to understand that the matchup can be quite swingy depending on some high impact cards (hence also a lot of different experiences) and that there are limited options for us to improve that specific matchup.
Currently playing: Elves
i've been in this situation. you need emrakul in your main to do this. If you have emrakul in your hand after ETI, just cast it and win that way. If hes in your deck you need intuition. Pull it out with intuition and hope that your opponent dumps it in grave. If he doesnt then you have it in your hand and can cast it. Otherwise it gets shuffled back in with the trigger.
The issue i ran into was a RIP was in play. No dice for me.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
I would think that in most cases though, RIP is a corner case we'd run into since it's a pretty terrible card against us.
Sorry, I probably should have stated that my opponent was miracles and its used for helm combo so it never comes out... but yea its not a great card against us. The situation was very very rare.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Agreed. I think Miracles w/helm is the only major deck that would keep it in against us. I was just speaking that it should be generally very rare for us to see it (and usually we should be ecstatic if we do). Just some bad luck in that situation you had, I think.
I am running 4 Dream Halls. And we are running 12 cantrips which makes it way more likely to have FoW against a Counterbalance. Miracles is also a terribly slow deck and this allows you to use Pact of Negation as a hardcounter from Turn 4 on. That turn you basically have to skip is usually not relevant.
And I am still certain that Miracles simply cannot deal with the threat density. DreamHalls are what I go for the most in this matchup as they cannot let SnT resolve under any circumstances. In most cases I cast Show and Tells which get countered. But then they are naked against the DreamHalls with double backup.
Furthermore Miracles itself is actually a pretty crappy Counterbalance deck because the mana curve is terrible, a Counterbalance without SDT doesn't really counter anything (and I have played Miracles myself for 3 tournaments, so I am qualified to say that).
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
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