Abusing Rector seems nice, as newly found success with Primeval Bounty seems great. Plus I know about Recurring Nightmare+Kokusho/Yosei. That was my main draw to the deck. Plus I wanted to try something...fun. playing combo for too long just gets too stale for me and I've been playing combo decks for a year now. Time to actual cast creatures.
I was also thinking, along with deeds and nightmare, about patern of rebirth to grab Kokusho or watever other creature I decide to put in...but I feel like that's either too cute or win more.
I have taken Scapeshift to two local tournaments the last month. The first one with 34 players a month ago and the second one, which was today, with I believe 26 people. The local meta seemed heavy with fair decks, so Scapewish seemed like a good choice. My list was very similar to Arianrhods list, cutting the Avenger to go down to 60 cards. I still use damnation and bramblecrush, since neither leyline based combo or enchantress i prevalent enough to warrent Reverent Silence. I the first tournament i faced, in order, merfolk, junk, RUG, miracles and BUG control. I managed to beat all of them, but the miracle player, who went on to win the tournament undefeated. I got the second seed for top 8, getting paired against a bug infect list. I quickly lost both games, without the opportunity to cast to many spells of relevance. I at least got a wasteland out of the tourament.
I played in the second tournament today. I got paired against BUG and then something similar, jund ,UR painter servant and reanimator. I defeated the first four opponents, dropping a game to the painter servant deck. I had to play against him because i got paired down and he wanted to play. Even though I was locked to top 8, I considered my chances of beating reanimator fairly slim. I therefore offered the ID and got it, getting first place in standings. In the top 8 i met the same Jund player again. I lost game 1 to getting my only green source wasted, and not drawing any more. In games 2 and 3 the mountains were victorious. I then met a junk deck. I one game, with two thragtusks to discourage attacks, i was able to get a 12 for 1 with Pernicious Deed, killing multiple bobs, tidehollow scullers, deathrite and a jitte. Deed is quite the card. After winning 2-0 versus junk I got to play the finals versus aggro loam, who was also undefeated. I think that both of us being undefeated is a testament to the current local meta. I mulliganed to 5 in game one, but he stumbled on mana for a turn and i Scapeshifted him out on the last possible turn. I game two i was crushed by devastating dreams. In the final game I was able to slaughter games his loams fairly early, and proceeded to deed away his board, and the damnation the three threats he deployed the turn after. After that I had a lot of time to comfortable assemble the Scapeshift win.
I am very pleased about winning my second tournament with this deck, and top 8ing both of them. Compared to Rector, which I have played a bit earlier, I do like the ability to simply kill the opponent. I found myself struggelig a lot versus deark confidant with Rector, since I was unable to kill him. In the last tournament, I believe almost all of my opponents played bob, but he was nearly a none issue. I could easily stall for a while and then kill them with scapeshift, leaving the extra cards drawn less than usefull.
I just left SCG NJ and did horrible. I was testing a build focused on rector. But I think I will go back go the original list. Rector is good at changing the tempo of a game but I couldn't finish. But I did hit someone for 13 with a Rasulka.
Congrats, Svknoe!
As I've said before, I think you need a very good reason to play a non-scapeshift version of the deck. Slaughter games, REB, and having an "I win" button are paramount.
Blue versions might be better against combo, but they are slow and durdly, and will take their toll on you as you go round after round trying to eek out a win before turns are called.
Split top 4 at a modern event on Saturday (guess which deck I played), and then split top 4 at the local legacy event tonight with an upgraded Thune. I'll give details tomorrow. I'm definitely pleased with where the deck is going.
Went 4-3 drop at the 10-round SCG Somerset, beating MUD, Maverick, Deathblade and Storm, losing to RUG Delver and 2 more Storm decks. Bigger report to come. 3 Storm opponents frustrates me, I think I need a little more practice against it but I know there's also not a ton I can do. I was playing Scapewish with a few sideboard changes. The event had a lot of combo which I wasn't expecting because apparently the metagame at the Invitational was very fair, so it wasn't the best environment for Scapeshifting anyway.
Yeah, I saw on Facebook that Devin went darkside was played TES -- and then played vs Shardless 4 rounds in a row. I lol'd. Sounds like it was kind of a mixed bag -- it was in fact a "fair" meta because of the invitational's leavings, but at the same time, it was also bigger than a lot of Grand Prix, so all the random people added a bunch of combo to the field that I think most people weren't expecting.Originally Posted by MrIggins
Haven't been playing nic fit for quite some time but this Thune deck seems really interesting. I loooove primeval bounty, especially the art! I got to play it on the pre release and it was bonkers.
I think this Thune deck has lots of potential but it's far from optimal in its current state. Gonna try it out and see how it goes
@Arianrhod
This is the list I have sorta modified from your earlier list and proved quite nice in testing against Jund, Deadguy Ale, Stoneblade Variants and TES
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Varolz, Scar-Striped
2 Spike Feeder
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Cavern of Souls
//SB
1 Spike Feeder
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Oblivion Ring
I find flinks awesome against those pesky decks that love to race (didn't like how this deck is quite weak against Deadguy Ale and Jund without flinks unless I am playing it wrong and which I would love for assistance on this). That aside cavern of souls is mostly there to force in either angel or sun titan for recurring shenanigans. I dropped the enchantment package of nightmare and bounty as I prefer a more streamlined deck.
Alright, here's what I played yesterday. Oh, and for everyone who guessed "Melira Pod" for Saturday's modern event, you're correct.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Varolz, Scar-Striped
2 Spike Feeder
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Phyrexian Tower
//SB
1 Viscera Seer
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Spike Feeder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Nevermore
1 Primeval Bounty
1 Batterskull
Summarized changes:
Main:
-1 Primeval Bounty
-1 Yosei
+1 Thragtusk
+1 Grave Titan
Side:
-1 Karakas
-1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 Spike Feeder
+1 Primeval Bounty
I decided that while I still wanted Bounty somewhere in the 76, I didn't want it maindeck. It fulfills much the same role as the Batterskull -- it's an enormous bomb for the grindy fair.dec matchups. It's not really something that you need main. Yosei locking was underwhelming (read: impossible) through testing, so I decided to go back a bit further in time and run the old Grave Titan. Since Thune isn't actually Rector (although it is evolved from Rector), you don't have the Moat concerns to worry about....and without having to worry about attacking through your own Moat, Grave Titan is still a hell of a guy. I'd said last time that I wanted Thragtusk in the list, and moving the Bounty to the sideboard gave me that option.
As for the board, both of the lands had been profoundly underwhelming last time, so I opted to cut both of them. That gave me the room to put in the Bounty, and to put in the Spike Feeder that I'd always wanted in the board.
As for the event:
R1 was vs Punishing Jund
My cards are basically just really good against his cards. In addition to the age-old trump of Sigarda, we also now have Varolz, which Jund is equally incapable of dealing with. G1 was a mull to 6 into Kitchen Finks and Spikes stalling (and Spikes resetting persisted Finks, because that synergy is AMAZING) into Varolz + Sigarda, with some scavenging to make them big. G2 I mulled to 5, as both my 7 and 6 were 1-land non-basic hands. He drew really well, including having a Sylvan Library going the whole game. G3 I finally had a good hand, and opened Forest+Veteran. From there Deed happened to reset his board, and then scary monsters went bump in the night.
R2 was vs Green Deadguy aka my friend that I play every single ****ing event
G1 I go infinite. G2 is a gross, gross game that goes to time. We have the Sigarda + Batterskull mirror match, but he also has Sword of Light/Shadow and Basilisk Collar, so I can't progress. I peak at like 120 life with him at 1 at one point....which he manages to reverse to something like me at 66ish and him at 85ish. I finally hit my second Deed on turn 4 of extra turns, and wrath his board, leaving me with a 21/22 Archangel of Thune, Grave Titan, and Batterskull with Primeval Bounty out, and him with Sigarda and Batterskull. If I'd had more time, that game would've been a win, too, but since I won g1 it didn't actually matter. I did also miss an opportunity where he was dead on board earlier in the game and I just didn't see it. /Shrug.
R3 was vs Junk
These games were really, really tight. G1 goes pretty long, but ends with me going infinite with Sylvan Safekeeper in play. G2 I try to assemble the combo like 3 different times, but I can't find Safekeeper and he always has the spot removal in hand. He ends up winning after a really, really tight game. We start game three with about 7 minutes left on the clock. I assemble a pretty good board state and am set up to win on around turn 7-turn 8 of extra turns. Unfortunately we only get 5 of those. Draw.
R4 I ID'd vs Dredge (we had 14 people, and we were both safe -- me at 2-0-2 and him at 2-1-1. We played for fun and I beat him 2-0 without sideboarding. Sakura-Tribe Elder is the most hilarious dredge hate ever, and it turns out that Grave Titan is REALLY good against Dredge.
Top 8 I got rematched vs the Junk player from R3.
He came out really fast with double KotR in g1. I tried to go infinite, but he had a spot removal. I skated along barely staying alive, and then on the last turn of my life I topped on upkeep into Archangel + Green Sun. Drew one for turn, popped top to draw the other, and slammed the combo down. He didn't have the removal, and I went infinite from 2 life. The ability to do shit like that is what Rector was always missing, and Thune fixes that problem. It's not quite as good as in Scapewish, where it's a literal 1-card combo (and it's really hard to disrupt, to boot). That said, it's still good enough most of the time.
Game 2 was significantly more boring -- was a pretty academic game of early ramp + defense into Archangel + Grave Titan doing the things that they do. He did have an 11/11 Ooze, though. It was pretty gross.
Top 4 split, but I would've been paired vs Elves if we'd played it out. Pretty sure that matchup is basically a coinflip....might be more like 45/55. Canonist, Revoker, Nevermore, Deed, Therapy are all good -- but to win you basically need to hit Vet + Therapy in order for your hate to be quick enough. It's kind of awkward.
-----------
Some thoughts:
-) Thune's concept has been sufficiently proven, IMO. I've played enough Nic Fit to know when a version is awful, and this is definitely not qualifying under that lens. Obv needs tuning, and I need to play it a lot more to get better with the lines, but there's something here.
-) Grave Titan is big daddy. Deathtouch was astonishingly/aggravatingly relevant on the day, taking out giant KotRs and Oozes from Junk in particular when Deed was nowhere to be found.
- The Titans are stabilizers, Sigarda is the primary beatstick wincon -- just as it always was with Rector.
-) Spike Feeder + Kitchen Finks is a hilariously strong grinding engine. Being able to twice-over reset Finks' persist is gross. If Jund doesn't have an active Deathrite, they get REALLY angry to see that.
-) Also Varolz: Bannerman of Trolling.
-) Diabolic Intent is pretty solid in this deck. I almost want a second copy.
-) I opted to keep 2 Phyrexian Towers instead of putting in a High Market because I wanted the extra mana push. I may still opt to try High Market in the sideboard -- I'm not sure but that that might overlap with Viscera Seer too much, though.
-) Bounty was fine out of the sideboard. I think that's the correct spot for it in non-Rector builds. Batterskull + Bounty gives me exactly the threat density post-board that I want against attrition/control decks. I boarded out 1 Explorer 1 Therapy for them.
-) I never wished for the combo hate or for the Angel of Despair on the day. Some of that might be because I didn't play against combo, obv. I also didn't wish for Qasali, but in g2 vs Greenguy I would've killed for a Wish->Qasali to get rid of the fucking Basilisk Collar.
-) Safekeeper was almost cut from the list yesterday morning. Pretty sure that after playing vs the Junk guy with his infinite spot removal, he's never leaving. Also, Safekeeper + either Titan is pretty nasty.
-) Recurring Nightmare was very subpar -- I only got to use it for its intended purpose once on the day. Deathrite and Ooze kept it down a lot. The problem is that I know that there will be games that I'll lose to not having Nightmare in my list because I then don't have a recursion engine at all. I might try to just lean completely on Eternal Witness / Sun Titan, and see if that's enough. Not sure what the Nightmare would become -- probably either a 3rd maindeck Archangel or possibly something like a 1-of Abrupt Decay. Maybe a second Diabolic Intent. Maybe some kind of maindeck combo hate. I dunno.
Interesting! Well done. I fear this deck is gonna have lots of problem against combo decks though, just like most nic fit decks. Although the infinite heal combo we got here could help alot if we get there. Can this deck combo quicker than scapewish?
Not sure about Angel of Despair. It's only good against S&T and only if the opponent is unaware that you have it = pointless gettin it with living wish
Maybe it's better to add some more discard to SB?
Other than that this deck looks really awesome! Can't wait to try it
Yeah. Vs combo we're basically on the Maverick plan of bears + Safekeeper to lock down bounce/decay. We have the usual Nic Fit plan of Deed vs Empty, and Therapies can rip their hand apart (slightly better here than in Scape because of the higher density of creatures). Nevermores are arguably one of the strongest on-color anti-combo options that still gets under Gaddock.
Angel is a dual-purpose here -- it's both good vs Show and Tell (even if they see it coming, at worst-case we've essentially Cranial'd their Show and Tells. they basically CAN'T SnT into it unless they have Wish, which makes them jump through another hoop); and it's good as a late-game bomb to Wish for when you've got a pile of mana and topdeck a wish without being able to combo. It might still not be good enough, but I'm reserving judgment on the Angel pending more testing.
As for combo speed, it's about the same as Scapewish. Uninterrupted it can win t3-t4 fairly easily, although with less consistency than Scapewish. When evaluating the combos, each version has slightly different strengths/weaknesses:
Scapeshift is much harder to hate, and is a 1-card combo. However, Scapeshift caps easily at 18 and realistically at 36. It also can be hurt by a savvy player who understands Valakut/Wasteland interactions. It's also vulnerable to a Surgical/Extirpate on a Wastelanded Taiga, although that is less common. ThuneFeeder isn't hurt by Surgical as badly thanks to redundant copies in the wishboard.
ThuneFeeder is a 2-card combo, which automatically makes it less consistent, and it loses to spot removal, which is even worse. However, the tutorability of Spike Feeder via Zenith helps to shore up the consistency problems, and the Spike is also recursive via Sun Titan (both of these matter, since Spike is more likely to die than Angel -- he can be Decayed, P-Fired, Bolted, etc).
They both have different strengths and weaknesses. I think that the real comparison between Scapewish and Thune is not in the relative strength of their combos, but in the shells that surround them. Scapewish is the stronger combo deck, for sure, but Thune is a better midrange deck. It has significantly better mana, has more of a sideboard, has more internal synergies, and has a higher bomb density.
At this point all I think that I can say is that Thune is the heir-apparent to Rector's crown as the superior GBw list. How it compares to Scapewish remains to be seen. It's still pretty new comparatively speaking -- Scapewish has over a year of fine-tuning on it. Time will tell.
I've only play tested a bit with Thune, but it seems more closely related to Punishing N. Fit than Rector even though it's in GBW.
I like the last changes. I also think that Feeder/Thune has a lot of potential. What still needs to be done is:
a) get to 60 cards
b) improve the mana curve: six cards with CMC 5 or more + costly cards like Living Wish, Fierce Empath, Recurring Nightmare and Diabolic Intent is a bit too much
c) give the deck some chance against combo. Currently we are at a auto-loss.
I also think that Lingering Souls belongs in the deck but I am not sure about that. The card is an engine in itself.
I agree, and I think the empath and titans are probably unnecessary. Angels should be enough to win with. 3-4 thoughtseizes in the 75 might help a bit, but combo is always going to be a tough matchup.
I was very close to playing Scapewish at SCG Somerset, but ended up going 4-3 with Esper Deathblade dropping with 3 rounds left since I had a long drive and was out of top 32 probably. Reflecting back, if I had played scape and had the same matches, I would not have done well. It's going to be a few weeks, but the next low key event I go to, I'm going to give BUG Nic fit a try for the first time, playing a list close to tao's.
I'm planning on playing AngelWishFit on SCG Mpls with a twist. Hexmage and dark depths as wish targets. Sounds silly, I know.
Then don't do it?
I'm curious if the lack of non-deed removal hurt much aka decay/swords or even pulse/vindicate.
I think nightmare is probably better on the bench right now. A little too much hate at the moment. Not sure what to replace it with, however. Nevermore x1 maindeck?
Tao: I would like test it before Sunday. My only chance will probably be during the challenge if I scrub out of standard.
Are you having copies of them maindeck too? Cause have a two card combo that needs to both cards be found with wishes sounds really bad.
While Arianrhod and Tao have both proven to be competent players and deck builders you will find their style varies tremendously. For better or worse, Arianrhod prefers to just pack bomb after bomb, forgoing removal often times to force his opponent to instead have to spend resources removing his threats instead of dropping his own. Arianrhod suffers from trying to do too many win more and cute things often time. For better or worse, Tao seems to value consistency above all else, cutting anything that is overly situational or could be win more and running more traditional general removal and SB combo hate. Tao is much more rigid and less willing to give up any consistency for powerful and/or fun stuff.
Personally, while I find Arianrhod's deck building innovations invaluable, I tend to side more towards Tao's deckbuilding style because desire for consistency and tendency to be a reactor, not proactive. If you are asking yourself, "wheres the 4'of removal spell and the thoughtseizes?" you might be in the same boat as me and want to run a more conservative/consistent but less aggressive/explosive list like the one tao posted a few pages back.
Very accurate. I favor decks that have a strong proactive element but that do still have some reactive capabilities. A few spot removals and sweepers is all I generally need to be happy -- in my opinion, it's better to force the opponent into a position where they have the incorrect answer for the question you're posing. I'd much rather slam down a Titan and have my opponent stare angrily at the Abrupt Decay in his hand than be on the other side of the equation. Sometimes it bites me in the ass, for sure, but I can live with it.
@JBone -- I thought about trying to include a Depths / Stage package in my build (the Grave Titan was originally Primeval, actually, to facilitate it). I found it pretty clunky in testing, though. I think that the Primeval->Stage/Depths combo is a powerful one, but is one that is more suited to a BUG colored list. It's more of a control finisher than anything else.
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