[DTB] Sneak Attack

[Koby]

Against Miracles I board into REBs, bounce spells, and Through the Breach. Defense Grid is a bit weak IMO, as they often can get Counterbalance which just counters without casting spells. They are also likely to bring in Wear/Tear or Disenchant to deal with any potential Moons, Sneaks, or Grids.

[Griselpuff]

Blood Moons are bad vs. Miracles.

I think D-Grid is really good as they can side up to 19 pieces of instant speed disruption. See Joe's list: http://www.wizards.com/magic/Digital.../tourn/5712183

If you drop a Grid on turn 1 or 2, they HAVE to counter it or Tear it, otherwise you might just untap and kill them. Obviously, it's usually not a good topdeck if you're going into the late game, but even then, it just stops SO many of their answers that I would be hard pressed to find a better card. And Counterbalance really isn't that scary. If you're dropping Grid on turn 1 on the play, they have no chance of resolving it. If you're on the draw on turn 1, or on the play on turn 2, they could play a Counterbalance, but they would need to blind flip it.

[blindspotxxx]

Thanks for the responses I guess it's time to remove Blood Moon for now :)

[Griselpuff]

Chris Brunner who Top 8'ed GP Strasbourg plays 3 Blood Moons... I think they are quite strong vs. Karakas decks. They're good vs. the BG/x decks if you can drop it on turn 1 or 2.

[blindspotxxx]

Well if Blood Moon is really super good then can it replace Leyline of Sanctity?

[mulder]

Is Karakas even that much of a problem? Simply drop Griselbrand, draw a buttload of cards and win through a Sneak Attack. Put Emrakul and Griselbrand into play. If they bounce before you declare attackers, just replay Emrakul. And if they bounce after you declared attackers, they take 7 from the Griselbrand and have to sac 6 permanents.

[Koby]

Is Karakas even that much of a problem? Simply drop Griselbrand, draw a buttload of cards and win through a Sneak Attack. Put Emrakul and Griselbrand into play. If they bounce before you declare attackers, just replay Emrakul. And if they bounce after you declared attackers, they take 7 from the Griselbrand and have to sac 6 permanents.

It does hinge on having Sneak Attack. Another option is Pithing Needle on Karakas, which is cheaper and easier to cast, and more versatile across more matches.

[catmint]

If the Karakas deck also attacks your life total you might not have enough time to setup sneak + active twice.
Often the Karakas deck also runs waste/port and thalia making it hard to get to the 4r + rr needed to cast and activate sneak twice

[alphastryk]

Blood Moons are bad vs. Miracles.

I think D-Grid is really good as they can side up to 19 pieces of instant speed disruption. See Joe's list: http://www.wizards.com/magic/Digital.../tourn/5712183

If you drop a Grid on turn 1 or 2, they HAVE to counter it or Tear it, otherwise you might just untap and kill them. Obviously, it's usually not a good topdeck if you're going into the late game, but even then, it just stops SO many of their answers that I would be hard pressed to find a better card. And Counterbalance really isn't that scary. If you're dropping Grid on turn 1 on the play, they have no chance of resolving it. If you're on the draw on turn 1, or on the play on turn 2, they could play a Counterbalance, but they would need to blind flip it.

The moon is certainly bad against Miracles. Some builds of Miracles like to PLAY Blood Moon even.

Defense grid is stopping counterbalance how exactly? if you turn one it on the play, great - are you killing turn 2? Is that a real scenario (Sol Land, D Grid, a colored source, SnT, Griselbrand)? Seems awful specific... If CB gets two turns, they can have CB or hatebears. Any o-ring effect will be boarded in for sneak attack already. D Grid seems a lot weaker than you propose. Joe's is certainly not the only list - a lot of us play permanant-based hate (Meddling Mage).

[blindspotxxx]

If the Karakas deck also attacks your life total you might not have enough time to setup sneak + active twice.
Often the Karakas deck also runs waste/port and thalia making it hard to get to the 4r + rr needed to cast and activate sneak twice

This is super true! Sometimes if you show and tell griselbrand and draw and then put down knight of the reliquary you might just die before double red mana.

The moon is certainly bad against Miracles. Some builds of Miracles like to PLAY Blood Moon even.

Defense grid is stopping counterbalance how exactly? if you turn one it on the play, great - are you killing turn 2? Is that a real scenario (Sol Land, D Grid, a colored source, SnT, Griselbrand)? Seems awful specific... If CB gets two turns, they can have CB or hatebears. Any o-ring effect will be boarded in for sneak attack already. D Grid seems a lot weaker than you propose. Joe's is certainly not the only list - a lot of us play permanant-based hate (Meddling Mage).

This is honestly debatable, d. Grid would be super good if they don't draw any counterbalances. D grid would also be good if you have a combo in hand and d. Grid early. Personally, I don't believe that everyday is magical christmas land so i'd rather play safe. I seem to beat Miracles with just boarding in Rebs, bounce and Extra enablers. I used to have a singleton Boseiju but it hasn't come out and I've still won :)

[apple713]

Well if Blood Moon is really super good then can it replace Leyline of Sanctity?

LLOS is trash to begin with.




this conversation has turned to a metagame call

Dgrid is good vs delver and tempo based decks. Dgrid is not great vs High tide or miracles. Miracles have CB and High tide can use it to combo against you.

Blood moon is good vs delver / bug / d&T / but really only if you draw it early and it sticks. If you draw it late vs delver/bug, they probably have a clock on you and its not really helping you anymore. Its help vs karakas is good but does it justify a whole SB slot against something that can be played around?

Boseiju is great vs miracles / high tide for landing TTB and S&T. It's not great against vs delver / anything with wasteland. You just have to hope you get to untap with it before they get a wasteland


Unfortunatly there is no card that solves all of the issues against control decks. It basically comes down to your meta. I play boseiju cause me meta has multiple high tide / miracle decks. Typically I havent had that bad of a time vs delver / tempo decks just because the deck usually has plenty of mana you just have to be patient. Drawing blood moon late in the game also just sucks. Do you really want to run 4 in the board to increase the chance you'll get it? Wasteland and karakas arn't big enough issues IMO to justify blood moon.

Very rarely will the deck land a S&T or a Sneak attack and not win.


yall should know that when picking cards to maindeck or sideboard you should pick cards that maintain consistency. They should not be situational. I mean this in the sense that LLOS with no way to cast it is worthless IMO... You cant expect to mulligain into it every sideboard game. A better strategy would be to keep a hand with 7 and try to find a copy of what your opponent discards. this deck is incredibly consistent in its mainboard. Blood moon after an opponent lands a creature or two is incredible less effective to the point where its just not worth playing because you now need to focus on finding your combo faster rather than slowing them down. This statement does not apply to cards like REB because you would only sideboard them in against a deck with Blue spells and it would always be good when you side it in.


The reason delver/bug / merfolk /tempo decks are hard for this deck and other combo decks isn't necessarily their control elements but the clock they put you on. Their control elements slow you down but only enough to hopefully push dmg thorugh. The sideboarding decisions here should be to either slow the opponent down, or increase the consistency / speed of your deck. The latter seems like the better choice because it follows in line with your original strategy. Slowing them down might work but it doesnt push you towards your end goal.

Consider this sideboarding decision. Vendillion clique vs tempo decks... It can be cast at EOT so your opponent will have to spend resources to respond to it making them not available on your turn. If it resolves you can now look at their hand and pull a card from it. draw out a spell pierce or force that might have stopped you from comboing. If their hand has a ton of counters you now know that you'll need to stock your hand with backup. The infomation this card provides is huge. Even if they stifle the trigger of ETB you still have a blocker that will klill delver or block a goyf, effectivly buying you another turn or two. This is also a great card to put in against control decks since it puts them on a clock and weakens their hand. Control decks are threatening because of the lack of information we have. If you knew that your miracles opponent didnt have a force of will in hand or a spell pierce on t2 you would cast S&T no questions. But because they have a full grip of 7 and an untapped island we assume the worst even if all they have is a brainstorm and 4 swords to plowshares and another land and CB. after explaining it like this is seems silly that we have not run it in the board. i think i'll add a third to mine.

[MeddlingMageGR]

After the new Legend Rule, Karakas in sideboard is useless. With Karakas in play, the power of Show and Tell is almost zero. Not only for this card, but for few others with catastrophic "comes into play" abilities, I believe that we must think again about Progenitus.
I also believe that we must add Stifle in mainboard. Counters the delayed triggered Sneak Attack's ability, so the creature remains in game, protects from "comes into play" abilities that targerts Emrakul and Griselbrand, its a land Destruction, its an answer to Liliana, and its bue.

My current decklist I love to play is this :

// Lands
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [UNH] Island
2 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
3 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 [AVR] Griselbrand
3 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [US] Sneak Attack
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
2 [MM] Misdirection
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [CHK] Through the Breach
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [TE] Intuition
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

61 cards, no Intuition. Intuition is not as good as I expected. The majority of opponents play blue. So I dont feel ok, to search for... 3 Show and Tell or 3 Sneak Attack, and then I "eat" a counter to the one i have in hand. I lose the game. Intuition must be a SB card, against non-blue decks. Like Goblins, or Maverick. And replaces Misdirection.

Daze vs Spelll Pierce : All the decklists in TC Decks (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tip...&format=Legacy) have 3 to 4 Spell Pierce. These decks dont play Stifle of course. I feel that Daze is stronger that Spell Pierce. I dont have the time ot keep 1 mana open, and if I keep it, its for Stifle.

Tell me your opinions...

[blindspotxxx]

Interesting list foregoing Intuitions for Daze to be ready for more Tempo.

Sneak and Show
William Jensen
6th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 7/28/2013

Creatures (8)

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

Lands (19)

3 Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

Spells (33)

4 Lotus Petal
4 Sneak Attack
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Show and Tell

Sideboard:

3 Blood Moon
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Echoing Truth
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Through the Breach
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[apple713]

After the new Legend Rule, Karakas in sideboard is useless. With Karakas in play, the power of Show and Tell is almost zero. Not only for this card, but for few others with catastrophic "comes into play" abilities, I believe that we must think again about Progenitus.
I also believe that we must add Stifle in mainboard. Counters the delayed triggered Sneak Attack's ability, so the creature remains in game, protects from "comes into play" abilities that targerts Emrakul and Griselbrand, its a land Destruction, its an answer to Liliana, and its bue.

My current decklist I love to play is this :

// Lands
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [UNH] Island
2 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
3 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 [AVR] Griselbrand
3 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [US] Sneak Attack
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
2 [MM] Misdirection
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [CHK] Through the Breach
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [TE] Intuition
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

61 cards, no Intuition. Intuition is not as good as I expected. The majority of opponents play blue. So I dont feel ok, to search for... 3 Show and Tell or 3 Sneak Attack, and then I "eat" a counter to the one i have in hand. I lose the game. Intuition must be a SB card, against non-blue decks. Like Goblins, or Maverick. And replaces Misdirection.

Daze vs Spelll Pierce : All the decklists in TC Decks (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tip...&format=Legacy) have 3 to 4 Spell Pierce. These decks dont play Stifle of course. I feel that Daze is stronger that Spell Pierce. I dont have the time ot keep 1 mana open, and if I keep it, its for Stifle.

Tell me your opinions...

stifle has no business in this deck for any reason whatsoever. This is not a tempo deck. Wasteland and karakas are not big enough issues to warrent main deck stifle.

I've never liked intuition in this deck so I could see daze's in place of those two. I'd probably just cut intuition from the deck all together cause it doesnt seem necessary. The only other idea i've had regarding intuitions is replacing them with preordains. Preordains dig deep with brainstorm and ponder to follow. 1 preordain and 1 ponder gets 6 cards deep. Thats ALOT to strike out on.

Also if we have to reconsider progenitus, just scrap the deck. Emrakul and griselbrand are the only reasons this deck is what it is. Replace it with something better or pick up a different deck

[MeddlingMageGR]

stifle has no business in this deck for any reason whatsoever. This is not a tempo deck. Wasteland and karakas are not big enough issues to warrent main deck stifle.

I've never liked intuition in this deck so I could see daze's in place of those two. I'd probably just cut intuition from the deck all together cause it doesnt seem necessary. The only other idea i've had regarding intuitions is replacing them with preordains. Preordains dig deep with brainstorm and ponder to follow. 1 preordain and 1 ponder gets 6 cards deep. Thats ALOT to strike out on.

Also if we have to reconsider progenitus, just scrap the deck. Emrakul and griselbrand are the only reasons this deck is what it is. Replace it with something better or pick up a different deck

I dont follow your temper!! Plz dont make it personal. I can play any deck I like, without asking your permission :) We are here to discuss ideas about this deck, and how to make it better. I have some thoughts. You are not obliged to follow me... but its better to test them out before you criticize them. In our subject now...
I know its not a tempo deck, but - ironical - we try to be faster in the same tempo than your opponent. That's why we play Sol-Lands, and Lotus Petals. The main job of Stifle, is to protect the creatures after Show and Tell. In the environment there are many threats : Stingscourger, Vendilion Clique, Goblin Charbelcher, Oblivion Ring, Karakas, Maze of Ith, all the Storm Decks... and many other I cant remember. Of course dont forget that if your opponent has already Liliana of the Veil, or Jace, the Mind Sculptor YOU CANT PLAY SHOW AND TELL. Its so simple.
The second very very useful mechanic is the synergy with Sneak Attack. The creature REMAINS in game, and this is fascinating. I cant describe you my feelings but Stifle is a "win card" in some situations. More than its role in tempo decks.

Progenitus is a huge untargetable cloak on the board. Dont underestimate him. Even if he needs 2 turns to win, its something very difficult for the opponent to deal with. Besides its blue, and can stick in FoW and MisDirection.

[Koby]

stuff

Your last couple of posts have made some pretty bad suggestions with regards to individual cards. You should state that these are your own preferences rather than rigorously tested heuristics. Tournament tesults have shown that Leyline, Intuition as useful and Daze as less useful. Yes Huey Jensen topped with Daze in his deck but I contend that Daze doesnt fit where its needed. Its effective only when forcing your own combo through, and not as a defensive counterspell. It loses its potency far too quickly.

Leyline of Sanctity is very effective against Jund decks and basically blanks all of their disruption including Liliana's -2. Onviously if no one is playin Jund or Junk or BUG in your metagame then it doesn't apply.

Every player who I've talked to has said Intuition was very powerful at what it did for the deck and the sole reason for cutting it was in SB games to avoid Surgical Extraction from being live after the tutor.

[apple713]

I dont follow your temper!! Plz dont make it personal. I can play any deck I like, without asking your permission :) We are here to discuss ideas about this deck, and how to make it better. I have some thoughts. You are not obliged to follow me... but its better to test them out before you criticize them. In our subject now...
I know its not a tempo deck, but - ironical - we try to be faster in the same tempo than your opponent. That's why we play Sol-Lands, and Lotus Petals. The main job of Stifle, is to protect the creatures after Show and Tell. In the environment there are many threats : Stingscourger, Vendilion Clique, Goblin Charbelcher, Oblivion Ring, Karakas, Maze of Ith, all the Storm Decks... and many other I cant remember. Of course dont forget that if your opponent has already Liliana of the Veil, or Jace, the Mind Sculptor YOU CANT PLAY SHOW AND TELL. Its so simple.
The second very very useful mechanic is the synergy with Sneak Attack. The creature REMAINS in game, and this is fascinating. I cant describe you my feelings but Stifle is a "win card" in some situations. More than its role in tempo decks.

Progenitus is a huge untargetable cloak on the board. Dont underestimate him. Even if he needs 2 turns to win, its something very difficult for the opponent to deal with. Besides its blue, and can stick in FoW and MisDirection.

as for untargetable, griselbrand is really the only "targetable" creature and unless they sudden spoiling him you are drawing 7 cards. Even if they swords in resp to your first draw 7 you can draw 7 in resp.

Im not trying to attack you but I think in all the games I've played I've only lost 1 game because my creature didnt stay in play after sneak attack.

You're right about show and tell, it gets hozed by a lot of cards. 2 planeswalkers, which cant be put into play with show and tell, so hopefully you have backup for them cause they'll have to cast them. If you have a griselbrand in play you should have backup for those planeswalkers. Goblins isnt in my meta so i cant speak to it. I'm not sure how maze of ith is a threat at all and oring only really sucks if they get your emrakul with it.

Maybe its just my experiences but I dont run into that many issues when I play the deck.

Your last couple of posts have made some pretty bad suggestions with regards to individual cards. You should state that these are your own preferences rather than rigorously tested heuristics. Tournament tesults have shown that Leyline, Intuition as useful and Daze as less useful. Yes Huey Jensen topped with Daze in his deck but I contend that Daze doesnt fit where its needed. Its effective only when forcing your own combo through, and not as a defensive counterspell. It loses its potency far too quickly.

Leyline of Sanctity is very effective against Jund decks and basically blanks all of their disruption including Liliana's -2. Onviously if no one is playin Jund or Junk or BUG in your metagame then it doesn't apply.

Every player who I've talked to has said Intuition was very powerful at what it did for the deck and the sole reason for cutting it was in SB games to avoid Surgical Extraction from being live after the tutor.

I did state that "I never liked intuition", the statement would be an opinion and i never said it was bad or the wrong choice for the deck. I instead said that i didnt like it and considered daze. Sideboard is going to depend on your metagame, and my metagame determines my sideboard. I am pretty sure one of my recent posts stated that along with my suggestions for different metagames. Just because people do well with a card just sitting in their sideboard it doesnt mean that its the best card for that slot either. I must have played 50- matches with Blood moon in my board and after not boarding it in i just took it out...

Lets consider my statement about daze and your statement together. If we subsitute intuition for daze I have an increased chance of pushing my combo through. If im trying to protect my combo after I just cast it(sneak attack or show and tell), chances are i'm not going to have 3 mana to cast an intution to get what i need to protect my creatures on the field. However if I draw 7 with griselbrand I may get a daze and IM almsot certain to have an island in play to cast it.

The deck is consistent enough as to when i cut intuition from my main i dont miss it or even notice it's gone. I've never been like man i really wish i had an intuition right now.

[dcosiem]

I think Intution is terrible for this deck too. It just cost way to much to do something so little, which can be done easily through 1 cmc can-trippers. In my list, i cut them for Gitaxin-Probe because it's useful to get perfect information, when you are going for the combo, if your opponent has counterspells or tricks for your deck. If your opponent has a counterspell which you can counter before you play Show and tell or Sneak Attack, you basically win. If your opponents has more than 2 counters, you can wait and do it later when your position to answer his additional counterspells, or whatever threat it is that stops you from combo-ing off successfully.

I also like the idea of having Daze because it is an additionally counterspell that is FREE to cast, and it can counter anything. The only downside-it is useful when your opponent taps out.

Playing this deck should not be played defensively in my opinion.

For the matter of Leyline of Sanctity; that is an required card in this 75 list because a lot of tier 1 decks play Discard spells. F. E. BUG, DEATHBLADE, JUND, ANT. Misdirection will not answer all of them. This is the reason why I don't even play Misdirection in the main anymore.

Considering to add Progenitus is stupid. Griselbrand is super-control awesome feeling.

NEVER CUT GRISELBRAND.

GRISELBRAND > CONTROL DECKS.

[Higgs]

Before Stifle I'd have a look at Pithing Needle if Karakas is the problem. Leyline has been a love/hate relationship for me. Against the decks where it's effective, it shuts them off (their relevant disruption) completely and gains you valuable turns to find your winning hand. I only mulligan into it if my hand already sucks. If I have a good hand lacking Leyline I say fuck it and try to force my way through. I'm not sure about Blood Moons though. Against BGx decks (jund and shardless) I'm already boarding in 4 leylines and possibly a bounce spell just in case so there's no space for Blood Moons. When I want to beat Karakas I board in Needle and bounce so Blood Moon becomes overkill. Only against Death&Taxes Blood Moon takes care of multiple problems but sometimes I think I can let that one go as a bad matchup and use those slots for something else. So far my board is:

4 Leyline
2 Needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 REB
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
3 Blood Moon

[dcosiem]

Before Stifle I'd have a look at Pithing Needle if Karakas is the problem. Leyline has been a love/hate relationship for me. Against the decks where it's effective, it shuts them off (their relevant disruption) completely and gains you valuable turns to find your winning hand. I only mulligan into it if my hand already sucks. If I have a good hand lacking Leyline I say fuck it and try to force my way through. I'm not sure about Blood Moons though. Against BGx decks (jund and shardless) I'm already boarding in 4 leylines and possibly a bounce spell just in case so there's no space for Blood Moons. When I want to beat Karakas I board in Needle and bounce so Blood Moon becomes overkill. Only against Death&Taxes Blood Moon takes care of multiple problems but sometimes I think I can let that one go as a bad matchup and use those slots for something else. So far my board is:

4 Leyline
2 Needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 REB
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
3 Blood Moon

I don't think you need Blood Moon because it's more redundancy when you have Pithing Needle doing the same effect: stop Karakas.

I personally would not put REB because mana is so tight sometimes especially if you're playing 18 lands like myself. I can't afford to combo off with an extra mana open for a Spell Pierce or REB. To understand this context better, I'm usually combo-ing off from turn 1-3. I like the Daze approach because you still have protection when you can combo off as soon as turn 2-3. If you play 19 lands with Spell Pierce and Misdirection in the main, then playing defensive combo might be better. Reb can be good in this version of the deck. I personally play Defense Grid because most control list are running over 10 counterspells in their list. It will be hard to deal with each and every counter. This is why Defense Grid makes sense because you don't have to deal with a counter-war especially if you're able to combo out in early turns and when you have less counterspells then them.