[Primer] Elves!

[Justin]

It works with either Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor or Wirewood Symbiote + Any elf.

You block with Arbor, then before the damage step you bounce the Arbor back to your hand with Quirion Ranger. Even if the creature you blocked had trample or lifelink, nobody gains or loses life. Untapping a creature will NOT remove it from combat if that's what you're confused about.

It's also a great way of keeping counters off your opponent's Jitte, especially if in Elves lists that don't run Viridian Shaman.

[nudon]

I have not found the need for Llanowar between DRS, Birchlore, Heritage and GSZ for Arbor as acceleration turn 1. Llanowar has absolutely no value past turn 2 and often past turn 1 if a Birchlore, DRS or Hertiage found it's Way into your Hand too unlike Quirion, which however remains a hated card for me outside the Budget Elves lists to untap Priest/Archdruid.

For my 2 Hoof, 4 NO Split vs. 1 Hoof, 1 Regal, 3 NO testing I just noticed that having more game ending bombs in a Field of RUG, BUG and S&T variants is preferable to fight the Discard and Stifles. I rather kill my opponents than drawin 5. I never looked back. 2 Hoofs is the Way to go. There's still not a decision of "playstyle" imo.

Back to Progress:

We can discuss how important Quirion remains (to safe Bayous from Wasteland) if a) you already run 4 Birchlores to constantly produce Black mana. The Problematic decision is given to your opponent if he Sets himself back a landdrop to deny a Single mana or not and b) how the value of the Second Arbor Decreses if we have less Quirions for the Trick to GSZ into Arbor for an additional activation of the Ranger

@Dicebox: This was more along the lines of what I was asking. Using Lemnear's 4 birchlore ranger build as the baseline, I wanted his take on having the full play-set of quirion rangers as opposed to a few llanowars.

@Lemnear: Have you tried 1 hoof and 1 regal along with 4 NO? That would be a fairer comparison since both configurations have the same number of bombs. If I'm interpreting correctly, it seems like you want the 2nd hoof primarily to guarantee you can end the game despite drawing/playing the 1st hoof. Is my assumption right? In regards to play-style, I guess I'm fine with potentially being forced to NO into regal every once in awhile in order to have the added flexibility of being able to NO into regal (setting up a next turn kill or dig answers for hate cards) when unable to swing for lethal.

What would you propose as alternatives to the full play-set of quirion rangers? Reducing down to 2 rangers definitely warrants the removal of the second arbor.

[lordofthepit]

You block with Arbor, then before the damage step you bounce the Arbor back to your hand with Quirion Ranger. Even if the creature you blocked had trample or lifelink, nobody gains or loses life. Untapping a creature will NOT remove it from combat if that's what you're confused about.

This can't be right, can it? They've changed combat rules too many times for me to say with certainty, but I'm pretty sure I would have heard about it.

[nudon]

This can't be right, can it? They've changed combat rules too many times for me to say with certainty, but I'm pretty sure I would have heard about it.

You're correct, the trample damage still applies.

[Lemnear]

@Dicebox: This was more along the lines of what I was asking. Using Lemnear's 4 birchlore ranger build as the baseline, I wanted his take on having the full play-set of quirion rangers as opposed to a few llanowars.

@Lemnear: Have you tried 1 hoof and 1 regal along with 4 NO? That would be a fairer comparison since both configurations have the same number of bombs. If I'm interpreting correctly, it seems like you want the 2nd hoof primarily to guarantee you can end the game despite drawing/playing the 1st hoof. Is my assumption right? In regards to play-style, I guess I'm fine with potentially being forced to NO into regal every once in awhile in order to have the added flexibility of being able to NO into regal (setting up a next turn kill or dig answers for hate cards) when unable to swing for lethal.

What would you propose as alternatives to the full play-set of quirion rangers? Reducing down to 2 rangers definitely warrants the removal of the second arbor.

I'm planning for a few rounds of kitchen table magic the upcoming week and then will hand out my testing List.

I've cut all Llanowars and never looked back. I'm even about to take the next step and evaluating the correct number of Quirions atm but will give more insight next week then.

I've sure tested the 4 NO, 1 Regal, 1 Hoof variant but had to fold too many times by drawing the Hoof, rendering NO pretty dead as a win-con from this point or seeing a drawn, hardcasted Hoof countered. With a 2nd Hoof and 4 NO you are a lot less vulnerable to a bad topdeck, counters or even Stifle. Being forced to NO into a Regal just to see your board wiped by explosives/Terminus or even die because the RUG Delver opponent has one more turn to Swing and fire off Lightning Bolts or giving Storm another turn to combo is miserable and costed me too many games in the past (Mindbreak Trap is crap).

In essence the 2nd Hoof reduces backbreaking Topdecks (Hoof if you need to NO for the kill due to Limited resources, drawing Regal with an opponent holding Stifle, where a Hoof is still a 5/5 haste in races vs Delver, drawing Regal if you face Gaddock Teeg or D&T where a Hoof would end the game, etc.), adds redundancy vs. discard/counters to the deck (applying to NO and hoof itself) and possibly accelerates the kill (Double Hoof vs. Knight of the Reliquary or Batterskull is deadly no matter the lifegain/size of Blocker).

If NO for Hoof isn't deadly you can still Tutor for a Symbiote to stall vs Aggro and setuo the BFF combo to draw cards without having to run a fatty for that purpose. I've abused NO many times this Way to stay in Glimpse-combo till I had enough Bang on the field that one of the following NO's, GSZ or Craterhoofs gain a deadly dose of steroids with a delay.

[nudon]

I'm planning for a few rounds of kitchen table magic the upcoming week and then will hand out my testing List.

I've cut all Llanowars and never looked back. I'm even about to take the next step and evaluating the correct number of Quirions atm but will give more insight next week then.

I've sure tested the 4 NO, 1 Regal, 1 Hoof variant but had to fold too many times by drawing the Hoof, rendering NO pretty dead as a win-con from this point or seeing a drawn, hardcasted Hoof countered. With a 2nd Hoof and 4 NO you are a lot less vulnerable to a bad topdeck, counters or even Stifle. Being forced to NO into a Regal just to see your board wiped by explosives/Terminus or even die because the RUG Delver opponent has one more turn to Swing and fire off Lightning Bolts or giving Storm another turn to combo is miserable and costed me too many games in the past (Mindbreak Trap is crap).

In essence the 2nd Hoof reduces backbreaking Topdecks (Hoof if you need to NO for the kill due to Limited resources, drawing Regal with an opponent holding Stifle, where a Hoof is still a 5/5 haste in races vs Delver, drawing Regal if you face Gaddock Teeg or D&T where a Hoof would end the game, etc.), adds redundancy vs. discard/counters to the deck (applying to NO and hoof itself) and possibly accelerates the kill (Double Hoof vs. Knight of the Reliquary or Batterskull is deadly no matter the lifegain/size of Blocker).

If NO for Hoof isn't deadly you can still Tutor for a Symbiote to stall vs Aggro and setuo the BFF combo to draw cards without having to run a fatty for that purpose. I've abused NO many times this Way to stay in Glimpse-combo till I had enough Bang on the field that one of the following NO's, GSZ or Craterhoofs gain a deadly dose of steroids with a delay.

You've definitely sold me on cutting llanowar completely. That's a good point you bring up about craterhoof being a better top-deck against combo/tempo decks than regal due to haste. Regal might be better against control but those match-ups are generally favorable aside from miracles. I'll go ahead and test it out myself. Similar to Daniel and you, I've tried ruric thar MD and don't like it at all. I know you mentioned that you currently run full play-sets of birchlore rangers, quirion rangers, and NO. Doesn't this leave you kind of thin on the number of lands in the deck? If I'm counting right, you have 17 lands (6 of which are cradles or arbors). Is the 4th birchlore really that necessary? Having multiple heritage druids and birchlore rangers in hand isn't desirable.

[Lemnear]

You've definitely sold me on cutting llanowar completely. That's a good point you bring up about craterhoof being a better top-deck against combo/tempo decks than regal due to haste. Regal might be better against control but those match-ups are generally favorable aside from miracles. I'll go ahead and test it out myself. Similar to Daniel and you, I've tried ruric thar MD and don't like it at all. I know you mentioned that you currently run full play-sets of birchlore rangers, quirion rangers, and NO. Doesn't this leave you kind of thin on the number of lands in the deck? If I'm counting right, you have 17 lands (6 of which are cradles or arbors). Is the 4th birchlore really that necessary? Having multiple heritage druids and birchlore rangers in hand isn't desirable.

Multiple Birchlores and Heritages guara-damn-tee an insane turn 3 at least, not to talk if you have a Cradle in addition. They are all good fooder for Glimpse, NO, GSZ and have a Target on their Head for Lightning Bolt or such.

For Quirion and the Second Arbor I beg for a Bit of time to gather more data. I hate to give out several numbers and lists in a Short timeframe. :)

At my attention to MTG is divided between TRS Doomsday, Elves and TES (HotS reports), so this ol' man needs his time

[igri_is_a_bk]

I'd put money down that 4 Q. Ranger is the correct number. I am certain that Birchlore is not better than it and that has everything to do with Q. Ranger's utility, which been discussed over and over again so I don't feel like rehashing it. I mean, I fail to see the appeal in extra Birchlores. You want more of them to be better against combo or what's the point of it? Llanowar Elves and Birchlore each as 1-ofs make a lot more sense than 2 Birchlores in the best GSZ deck. You know the main reason Birchlore was added? For sideboarded games to get hasted B or W mana when you've used your land drop or want to use it for Cradle. It wasn't to draw into it naturally and it sure wasn't to fetch with GSZ on your combo turn (opposed to Heritage). Adding more Birchlores to the main doesn't look very valuable to me, especially if you're cutting an elf that is individually fantastic in Llanowar Elves. And to address something you said earlier, Lemnear, Llanowar Elves are good beyond the first couple turns against any attrition deck. You're being too optimistic if you don't think your initial mana dorks are going to die. That's how we occasionally lose to fair decks: they hinder our development. We already have an uphill battle against combo, and one or two more Birchlores doesn't change that favorably. It might slighly help, but that doesn't swing the numbers in your favor. This is just one humble man's opinion who went 5-0-1 yesterday for 1st at my LGS with my list from page 8 (-1 fetch, +1 Sylvan Library). Shameless plug.

[Lemnear]

Most decks fighting the attrition war play sweepers afaik so naming Llanowar a tool against attrition decks is strange. I've added Birchlores for the summoning sick elves to speed up the deck for early Glimpses, produce multiple Black mana per turn to machine gun DRS into your opponents face, produce colored mana for possible SB cards, and add some redundancy against removal (lesser argument).

You want to dismiss the idea because it "slightly help, but doesn't swing the numbers"? Sorry that I'm just able to provide a boost in speed and consistancy and no total gamechanger against combo.

I'm familiar with a lot of elven lists these days who place in several T8 despite of having a shitload of "cute" cards like chord of calling, Living Wish, Ezuri, Eternal Whitness, etc. The pure mass of T8 showings with different cardchoices around the core of Nettle/Hertiage/DRS/Glimpse/Visionary/Symbiote/Quirion leaves no doubt that the meta still not adjusted to fight the archtype as such regardless of the detailed choices. My focus is to keep the decks DtB Status by being a step ahead of Future Development of the other contenders.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Most decks fighting the attrition war play sweepers afaik so naming Llanowar a tool against attrition decks is strange. I've added Birchlores for the summoning sick elves to speed up the deck for early Glimpses, produce multiple Black mana per turn to machine gun DRS into your opponents face, produce colored mana for possible SB cards, and add some redundancy against removal (lesser argument).

You want to dismiss the idea because it "slightly help, but doesn't swing the numbers"? Sorry that I'm just able to provide a boost in speed and consistancy and no total gamechanger against combo.

No, most of the decks playing the attrition war do not play sweepers. The most prominent fair decks are RUG Delver and Shardless BUG by a wide margin, both of which do not. Excluding any random fringe deck you may encounter, Miracles with Terminus and some Esper Blade with a single Supreme Verdict and EE. Otherwise, it's all sideboard cards within the top 20 decks.

I'm simply stating that I do not want to remove Llanowar Elves from my deck as an option for an extra Birchlore because it drops another card that is good in your opener for something I don't desire as is. Heritage Druid is and always will be the goal with a Glimpse. If I were regularly having issues getting on Heritage's back then I'd probably want more Birchlores. We already mulligan harshly and so I'm prone to putting cards in my deck that are good if I have to mulligan. You don't know for certain that additional Birchlores are more consistent than Llanowar Elves, but you're acting like it's a fact.

edit: Doesn't Summoner's Pact improve your speed and consistency more than additional Birchlores anyways?

[Lemnear]

It played out well and because of the mulligans i want that Mini-heritage which brings the additional feat. I mentioned. I have enough BUG and RUG Opponents around running deeds and EE's.

No one questions Heritage; this discussion start to remind me off DRS vs. Noble Hierach in which people laughed at me while I was poining at DRS' flexibility Rendering it the Supreme choice..

The Chords or Vengevine or Living Wishes or shit were replacing the NO Package in those T8 decks. For me it's an indicator that the Elves-core works against the current Meta regardless the kill-Package. It's not a topic of Birchlores.

[Absolutflipz]

They perform different functions and both belong in the deck. I currently have a 3/2 split qurion/birchlore

Quirion -

-Untap effects are very important (Heritage Druid, sufficient untapped creatures to attack w/ Hoof)
-Wasteland protection
-Generating additional mana on land-light hands or just generating additional mana when untapping mana elves/dryad arbor (no including Priest as I dont think she should be played)

Birchlore -
-Color fixing for extra Deathrite B activations and ease of SB cards like Thalia, Teeg, Decay
-Additional Heritage to allow faster combo, or earlier, more valuable glimpse
-Morph for 2/2 colorless (much less relevant than other reasons)

I place a higher emphasis on the Untap effects than what Birchlore brings to the table....but anyway, what about discussion of sideboard cards and in/out decisions as opposed to agonizing over the min/maxing of Quirion and Birchlores, which I think is much less significant.

I also disagree on cutting Llanowar completely, and only playing 4x Deathrite as "mana elves" (incld. 4x Gsz = 0) if that was the idea proposed.

Re: Sideboard -- if Sylvan Library is a good c/a option in grindy matchups...is Dark Confidant a better Sylvan Library? Given 2x Bayou, 7-9fetches, Deathrite, and Birchlore, I'd say he's just as easy to cast and better than Sylvan Library.

I also feel like every sideboard should have 4-5 Discard, 2-3 Thorn Effects, 1-2 Art/Enchant, a Teeg, couple flex slots, and c/a cards. The real trouble is sideboarding correctly, which is difficult given the varied hate that comes and by the fact that sideboarding a combo deck in general is very tricky. Thoughts?

[Koby]

It's not exactly new data that Birchlore Ranger increases the speed of the deck. We can easily revert back to pure "combo" shells that operate with Summoner's Pact and Nettle Sentinel triggers to make insane Turn 2 combo turns. This however, puts more emphasis on Glimpse turns. The entire idea with adding NO was to give a second plan in case Glimpse doesn't show up. For that reason, you want at minimum:

1 Llanowar Elves
4 GSZ (into Dryad Arbor)
4 DRS (with fetchlands, hopefully 2)

as turn 1 mana plays. Quirion is best as a turn 2 play to fuel with the above nine, and used in conjunction to produce 3 mana, potentially more with Cradle as the land drop. Cutting down on this number by cutting Llanowar Elves and replacing with Birchlore doesn't achieve this speed in the early game; only so if you have Nettle Sentinel. Just like we can't have Glimpse in every game, same is true with Nettle Sentinel. I will still advocate at minimum 1 Llanowar(/Fyndhorn/Elvish Mystic whatever floats your boat) -- anything that produces unconditional mana and costs 1.

[Dice_Box]

is Dark Confidant a better Sylvan Library?

Craterhoof and Progenitus say no.

Cutting down on this number by cutting Llanowar Elves and replacing with Birchlore doesn't achieve this speed in the early game; only so if you have Nettle Sentinel. Just like we can't have Glimpse in every game, same is true with Nettle Sentinel. I will still advocate at minimum 1 Llanowar(/Fyndhorn/Elvish Mystic whatever floats your boat) -- anything that produces unconditional mana and costs 1.

No we can't have glimpse every game, but unless you get your Llanowar in turn one or two, he is a dead draw. If you are going to tutor him Dryad is a cheaper option, if your talking about drawing him naturally I think having a one off that only works in the first two turns of the game is silly.

I mean yes, one drop 1/1's with mana are great turn one and two, but do we want to fill out 6+ slots in our deck for that kind of card? I think the smoothness of not having to deal with summoning sickness, making off colours and adding more Heritage effects to the deck is an advantage worth having. Also you might underplay the morph ability, but to be honest, sometimes that very ability will win you a game.

[Absolutflipz]

Craterhoof and Progenitus say no.


No we can't have glimpse every game, but unless you get your Llanowar in turn one or two, he is a dead draw. If you are going to tutor him Dryad is a cheaper option, if your talking about drawing him naturally I think having a one off that only works in the first two turns of the game is silly.

I mean yes, one drop 1/1's with mana are great turn one and two, but do we want to fill out 6+ slots in our deck for that kind of card? I think the smoothness of not having to deal with summoning sickness, making off colours and adding more Heritage effects to the deck is an advantage worth having. Also you might underplay the morph ability, but to be honest, sometimes that very ability will win you a game.

True, I did forget the Hooves when I suggested that. I'm not on Progenitus, but yeah...

I think you're exaggerating quite a bit when you say sometimes the morph ability will win you the game....2/2 vanilla dude is not winning any normal game of legacy.

Having a turn 1 mana dork is very important, and they're hardly "dead draws after turn 1" They're fine turn 2 and equivalent to on t3 -- and beyond that they're 1cc elves.

[Dice_Box]

2/2 vanilla dude is not winning any normal game of legacy.

Pox says hi.

[Absolutflipz]

Pox says hi.

Huh? and who plays Pox?

Let's not derail this, though. 2/2 morph is a minor-relevant ability for a blocker against SoFF, having a guy live through Plague, and apparently against all the Pox players, but it's not "winning" games.

[LeoCop 90]

The only scenario in wich the morph ability can be really important is to block a creature with protection from green ( mirran crusader, sword of feast and famine). You can also block, then morph and return the birchlore to your hand with symbiote. It is also fine against engineered plague. Overall not very very useful , i'd say.

Aniway I'm really interested in the discussion about llanowar vs birchlore. At the moment i think that having a mana dork turn one is the best play our deck can do, and that's why i run 3 llanowar(1 llanowar, 1 fyndhorn, 1 mystic), 3 deathrite shaman and 4 gsz into dryad arbor. I cut one shaman to have more chances of producing more mana turn two untapping a llanowar with quirion ranger, which is not always possible with deathrite due to lack of fetches.
I will test 4 birchlore 0 llanowar as soon as i can to see how it works.


Edit: why a 2/2 should be so important against pox ?

[Dice_Box]

Huh? and who plays Pox?

Let's not derail this, though. 2/2 morph is a minor-relevant ability for a blocker against SoFF, having a guy live through Plague, and apparently against all the Pox players, but it's not "winning" games.

A 2/2 is useful against a lot of things, a 2/2 that is not an elf is useful too when Plague hits. Also against goblins you get a 2/2 that stops almost everything that (we) they have. Its not the most useful ability in the world but it can win you games. When you go into beatdown it increases the clock, when you're needing to stop bigger creatures it helps too. Again not the strongest ability in the world, maybe due to the 3 pox players locally I like it more than most, but dam is it not the most useful thing when you need it.

Edit:
Pox almost always runs E Plague. A 2/2 thats not a nameable creature type is important.

[Lobo]

It's not exactly new data that Birchlore Ranger increases the speed of the deck. We can easily revert back to pure "combo" shells that operate with Summoner's Pact and Nettle Sentinel triggers to make insane Turn 2 combo turns. This however, puts more emphasis on Glimpse turns. The entire idea with adding NO was to give a second plan in case Glimpse doesn't show up. For that reason, you want at minimum:

1 Llanowar Elves
4 GSZ (into Dryad Arbor)
4 DRS (with fetchlands, hopefully 2)

as turn 1 mana plays. Quirion is best as a turn 2 play to fuel with the above nine, and used in conjunction to produce 3 mana, potentially more with Cradle as the land drop. Cutting down on this number by cutting Llanowar Elves and replacing with Birchlore doesn't achieve this speed in the early game; only so if you have Nettle Sentinel. Just like we can't have Glimpse in every game, same is true with Nettle Sentinel. I will still advocate at minimum 1 Llanowar(/Fyndhorn/Elvish Mystic whatever floats your boat) -- anything that produces unconditional mana and costs 1.

I agree with you, Koby. The extra Birchlores only really work to our advantage turn 2 if Nettle Sentinel is in play. Quirion works to our advantage turn 2 if any of the following are in play: Fyndhorn/Llanowar, DRS, Dryad Arbor, Priest of Titania (assuming it's present); not to mention it neatly solves the problem of the one-land hand. It's true that Quirion is not so explosive as Birchlore, especially if we no longer play Priest, but as you point out the Elf deck has done better recently by diversifying and moving away from pure explosive turn 2 wins.

Last weekend I played in my LGS's weekly legacy event, and I ran the four-Birchlore build (with zero Llanowar/Fyndhorn and only three Quirion) just to see how it performed. In one game Birchlore did accelerate me on turn 2, but in another it contributed to a stall when what I really needed was a simple mana dork. So in my limited testing it's been a wash.

So I'm thinking I'll go back to four Quirions... and the more Quirions I run, the more it makes sense to run Fyndhorn/Llanowar alongside them. That puts me back where I started. I respect the advantages of the Birchlore-heavy build, but I don't prefer it.

In other news, I really need to figure out a better plan against Reanimator, my nemesis.