I found that in the vast majority of matchups like Combo, Tribal Aggro all or the myriads of Aggro-Control-Denial-variations (RUG, Maverick, Team America, Staxx, Death and Taxes) one resolved big GSZ is usually enough to pull far enough ahead to win the game. Even if they deal with the Titan it will consume most of their resources and then you can just win with the stuff you have laying around. The only matchup in which I want more big threats is the control mirror (Stoneblade, Miracles, Shardless). For these matchups I try to use win conditions like Jace or Punishing Fire that are specifically good against them but also help me along the way against the other decks.
For Abrupt Decay I think that it is an absurdly good card that is also amazing against Deathblade, solid against Miracles and still okayish against Stoneblade and Shardless so I don't see any reason to not play it.
I also dislike Wishes because I already find that 15 SB slots are barely enough to stand my ground against Combo and I wouldn't know what to do with only 6-8.
Arian what's the most up to date scape list? The one in your tag or the one on the opening page? Not that there super different lol just wondering
I don't think that they're different at all, actually. Technically the "most up to date" is that list -1 Collective Voyage -1 Virtue's Ruin -1 Thoughtseize for +1 Perish +2 Golgari Charm. But it's close enough -- the maindeck is correct, and you should be reworking / reexamining the sideboard/wishboard before every event anyway.Originally Posted by cadaver
The one in ur tag has chameleon col. Only diff lol but ty
Oh. Yeah I didn't even notice that he was missing in the one in the OP. I woke up from a dream this morning and am not really actually mentally "here" yet, lol. Hopefully I wake up soon ._.
That was my bad, I took Arian's list, played a few games with it and reduced it to 60 cards. Though I'd still prefer to have 60 cards list in the OP.
Just curious, what are the charms for? (:
They are against Elves mostly, but also good against Maverick, Death & Taxes and Goblins and solid against Dredge. And Enchantress, Aluren, Belcher or the Zombardment deck if you ever face those.
Also, Leyline of Sanctity, Omniscience, Dream Halls, and Sneak Attack. Those and Elves are the primary reasons I run them in my list.
Any updates on the punishing fire list?
Good that you are here, HoneyT, I have few questions about the Punishing lists:
- Why 3 Forest? I'd rather have a second Taiga. Never needed more than 6 basics.
- how about 2 Liliana of the Veil over the 2 Maelstrom Pulse? I liked her a lot recently.
- I like a 3/3 split between Decay and Fire better. Fire is for late game so you have time to draw it.
@nottz: this is my current list:
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Ranger
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Damnation
I realize you're probably much more experienced with the deck than I am, but 6 basics just feels way too low. Even at 7, which is the most I can get away with playing in my punishing fire build, I've found I randomly get screwed out of value that actually really ends up mattering. If you draw more than two explorers (or even at 2 if you've had to fetch basics or naturally drawn them) you're often not going to find enough lands when you search and lands are incredibly important in Nic Fit. Not being able to play a deed and have enough to pop it, or not being able to play two spells that you really need because you're short some land is terrible. It also makes punishing fire just worse in general, as you can't cast it enough times even if you have groves for it. You also want lands to feed kessig wolf run. If I could I'd play a comfortable 9 basics, but alas, no such room in a three color build.
I play a list very close to HoneyT's build, except I'm trying a singleton Rakdos's Return over deathrite shaman. So far it's been exceptional, it kills planeswalkers, discards hands, and sometimes its just a giant fireball to finish out the game. I haven't seen it in any other lists, so perhaps it could be something else. Deathrite doesn't make much sense to me since it dies to deed and we already have scavenging ooze. I suppose you could make an argument that it's too slow, but both cards have their weaknesses.
I currently play no Kessig Wolf Run but that might be wrong, I am unsure. I don't want to go up to 23 lands but I also don't want to cut a colored source. Going down to 3 Groves sounds terrible, too. I found 6 basic lands to be enough if you fetch for nonbasics early on in the right matchups.
I don't like Ooze and DR Shaman. They die, every single time, that is all they do.
I know I might sound a bit repetitive with what TheArchitect called "Tao seems to value consistency above all else, cutting anything that is overly situational" (which is very true). But on the plus side I get to run 2 Thoughtseizes MD for the trouble. I find those more important than the occasional Ooze or Rakdos Return blowout.
On a general note Liliana has been MVP for me recently. She is great at winning against Omnitell if you managed to keep them from comboing in the first turns. Also of course she is still good at killing problematic creatures like Geists, Tombstalkers and 7/8 Goyfs and being a threat against Control decks.
Article on Thunian Fit (mostly the how of how I brewed it) is up here: http://www.mythicgameselmira.com/Forum/page.php?8 . I have other articles on that site too, somewhere....I think you'll have to go to the main page and just go back in the time....the articles section was just created tonight I think. The article's a week old since Mythic was upgrading their site, so I've made some changes which I have likely posted about here, but it's still a decent read, I think.
I've got some thoughts for you guys tomorrow...but tonight, bed.
I only played Punishing Nic Fit in a few events (and finished terrible) but Wolf Run was great. I definitely think it was worth a slot. It was a lategame MVP. Turning Vets into 9/1 trampers and making thrun even more of a boss.
I like ooze in none scapeshift lists. You cant think of him as a two drop though. Hes more like a 5/6 drop that takes over the creature matchup as it grinds on. Even if I have 2 mana open and no other play, unless I want ooze to be a therapy naming removal, Ill just keep him in hand till later.
Some thoughts before work:
Ecstatic_Conch pretty much nailed it regarding the 3rd Forest. I simply do not like running less than 7 basics in any Nic Fit deck. I play rather conservatively and like to fetch basics early and still be able to get value off my Explorers. It also allows me to cast every spell in my deck off only basic lands.
I like Liliana a lot in theory, she's very good, but I hate the strain she puts on the manabase. I used to play with her in my older versions of the deck and found her super awkward to cast at times. I would definitely play another Bayou or Badlands in place of the second Taiga in your list. If I wasn't the only person around here playing Omni Show, I would consider it, but as it is, I haven't found her necessary lately.
As for the Decay/Fires split, that changes regularly based on what I expect to see. Basically, the more Tarmogoyfs, the more Decays. But right now around here there's a lot of creature, Liliana, and blade decks where I want the Punishing Fire engine online ASAP.
Not playing Kessig Wolf Run is %479810938401298 wrong. That card wins me more games than any other card in the deck. It's by far the best finisher in this deck.
As for the DRS and Ooze, I'm going to copy my response to a PM from a bit ago from a new player trying to get into the archetype who had questions about my creature base.
Basically, I like utilizing my GSZ toolbox as just that, a toolbox.
Just some food for thought!
/barning Tim's thoughts on PFire build. Wolf Run would probably be the card that I start with if I was going to build a PFire version. I actually tend to go one higher on basics even -- I like running 8. Having a basic or two in the opening hand is always fine, and usually your first fetch vs an unknown opponent should be a basic. Then you want to get value out of at least 2 Explorers past that point. One of the easiest ways to lose with Nic Fit in my experience is to fetch / play your nonbasics t1/2/3, get them Wasted, get shut off of something important because of that, and then drown in high-drops until you're dead. This may feed into my personal approach to the deck of packing more power than most.
I do agree with Tao regarding Liliana, though. The Liliana / PFire engine is just too good, I think. PFire is the one version of Nic Fit where I actually really like Lily. But, I mean, if Tim's meta isn't really one where you need Lily, then that's cool, I guess. It's important to remember that we all have our specific metagames and personal concerns.
Rakdos Return is a pretty solid idea, honestly. It's never really dead even when you're both on topdeck mode, which is a good thing. If you can manage to disrupt with Therapies etc long enough to get up to a pile of mana, it's a dead-ringer vs combo, too. Alternatively Vet->Tower+RR@3 is awfully good.
I cut the Recurring Nightmare from Thune in favor of moving the Teeg maindeck. Teeg was always intended as an actual sideboard card anyway, not a wish target, and coupled with the Safekeeper maindeck he can help randomly steal some game ones vs combo. One of my friends has been pushing hard for me to try a Sanguine Bond in that slot, arguing that it gives the deck a way to actually win the game...and that even when you're not going infinite, the deck still habitually gains 8-12 life without actually going out of your way to try to. I'm pretty sure that I don't like the idea, but I figured I'd at least toss it out there. He is annoyingly correct that just going infinite doesn't actually win the game -- they could have a chump blocker into a sweeper, or they can just Jace you out or RIP/Helm you or go "more infinite" ala OmniTell. It's uncommon, in my experience, but it does happen. Sometimes you get "that guy" who can't actually beat you, but who insists on playing it out even though you have infinite life and he can't deal with it. While I don't think that Sanguine Bond is the correct answer, it would be admittedly nice to have something to do with the extra life that the deck gains aside from using it as a temporal resource.
- I don't see the point of having a toolbox of creatures that die when they enter the battlefield. Decay, Swords or Bolt, they will have something. If you wait for 5 mana to play Ooze to get around Bolt you might as well play another 5-drop instead. One of them is okay to combat graveyards, but both is too much.
- I agree with replacing the Taiga in my list. A second Taiga is just unnecessary with 4 Groves already.
- I'll try Kessig Wolf Run again.
- Liliana is nice because the deck plays a lot of removal and she has the ability to turn from a removal into a threat.
@Arian: I just noticed that. Why are all your lists 61 cards?
@Tao
I think Deathrite and Ooze serve different purposes, even though their capabilities overlap. I like Ooze because I feel like this deck needs a two-drop aggressor that doesn't suck in the late game. I keep him in my MD because it's a backup plan if I can't ramp. Between the life gain and the eventual threat, he can be a big player even with Deathrite. He's more of a last resort than main plan and would be on the chopping block before Deathrite. That said, there's a dredge player in my meta and Scavenging Ooze is the tits against him.
Deathrite, like Tim pointed out, is half for the ramp, half for the swiss-army knife he comes with. I don't personally run Sylvan Ranger or Sakura Tribe Elder, I don't think Punishing Nic Fit needs them - but if I can get an 'oh-shit-ramp' with a little reach attached - sounds good to me. I also don't think they make one another redundant because, like you pointed out, they're fragile.
I wrote to Tim when he first started incorporating Deathrite because I didn't like him, but as I played with him more and more, he grew on me. Even though he's a one-drop, I don't normally cast him before the late-game unless I'm using him as a backup ramp.
Been working on a Sunthunefit list. I've probably fell too in love with the Thune+Feeder synergy, and most likely went too far here. Thune is White, and when I play white in my nic fit lists I am playing Sun Titan. This card has won me many games, and has really nice synergy with this deck I've brewed. (Or rather, It's a remake of Arianrhod Thunefit list). I haven't tested this pile of shit (I don't have high expectations, hence shit) yet but I'm looking forward to it.
This is how the list looks like, and explanations under:
CREATURES (20)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Spike Feeder
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Archangel of Thune
2 Sun Titan
ENCHANTMENTS (3)
3 Pernicious Deed
SORCERIES (11)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
ARTIFACTS (3)
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (24)
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dust Bowl
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Tower
SIDEBOARD
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Extirpate
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Carpet of Flowers
Qasali Pridemage + Suntitan = Unreal against Mud (Which can turn out be a hard matchup. Not anymore!). Destorys equipments, affinity, etc
Knight of Reliquary = This is something I've never played in a nic fit before. Because it dies to deed too easily, and we already have good finishers. But! This time around I'm playing 2x Sun Titan to revive it and I'm playin knight because I want Karakas and Ith. These two lands have always been really good for me (might be because I'm playing in a meta full of reanimate and various Emrakul decks.) I'm still not sure what other lands that could be useful to fetch with it. I added Dust Bowl because I figured long games it could probably do some work, as well as the stronghold. Stronghold being able to revive Thune etc is big. I'm really not sure about the Dust Bowl.. Anyone have suggestions on lands I could add?
Sylvan Safekeeper. I really believe in this guy. Protecting our combo, our titans etc. Also pretty good with Ooze against reanmiater as they tend to have bounce spells after sb
Kitchen finks.. spike feeder.. = additonal food for sun titan (and ofc their synergy together)
Archangel of thune + spike feeder = the combo win
Pernicious Deed + Sun titan = Congrats, you pretty much won all fair legacy decks
Sun titan + Eternal witness = Value. Return Thune, sigarda and anything else thats in your GY
Sun Titan + lands = You can get all lands back that got wastelanded etc
Sun Titan can pretty much return everything we have. This card is really boss
7 discard MD = I've never been disappointed of extra discard MD.
SB
Garruk+Elspeth = Against Miracles and other decks that have tough time dealing with planeswalkers
Abrupt Decays mainly against RUG. I hate losing games where they put delver turn1, turn2 flip and then counter everything I try to do
Rest is self explanatory I guess
In my mind, this sounds like a really fun and interesting deck to play. Granted, this list probably gonna suck (mainly becuase I made it) but still gonna be fun to try it out
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