Once again, it's not the list it's the playerOriginally Posted by losernoob
Elves is a bad match up, make a better sb if it's in your meta
Or
Play a deck that eats it. This is legacy, every deck has a weakness
You need to out pilot Merfolk. That deck, is a net deck list, memorize it, play around the clock and VERY few HARD counters. Win.
Cursed totem, chalice of the void, graffsiggers cage, moment's peace, glacial chasm, revoke, needle can all be used to hose or slow elves down to win
I lost several games against BUg where their hands were simply 3x Hymn, 3x wasteland (Gerry THompson did this both of our games, and I had it happen to me once on Sunday). Abrupt decay in hand or ripped shortly thereafter two of those three games, doing nothing. I'm not against the idea of abrupt decay still belonging, but for the time being I'm streamlining the list with less nonbasics and more consistency.
The idea behind the 61/14 is that I nearly-always side out Candelabra against control, combo, and tempo, leaving pure aggro as the only matchup where I leave in candelabras simply due to artifact hate. The card is worth running x2 mainboard simply for the punch it has game 1 when they don't have good removal for it, abrupt decay is not good removal for candelabra, but post-side, when you are likely going second and shaving advantage however possible, candelabra can be a liability with a non-linear hand. There are deck exceptions to this sideboarding rule, but as a general trend, my candelabras are often in the sideboard game 2-3. So that's the "out" theory, If you're always taking something out, then it might not belong, unless it is better game 1 than game 2/3, which this card is.
The "in" theory is relatively simple, but has two concepts to it. First, against combo, I want to increase my density. I do this currently by often siding out 2-4 lands against most forms of combo. Storm is the only matchup I side out cloudposts against, as they dont' run fluster and I need the blue sources, but nearly always chasm/bog/glimmerpost(1/2) come out. Thus my density for siding in 11 counterspells is made. This concept of density works for non-spells too in the opposite direction. Against tempo, waste-reliant stalling strategies, or board-based control (read: Jund, BUG, Esper, RUG) then I want the maximum amount of lands possible in my deck. I previously accomplished this by having additional lands in my sideboard, namely a Tabernacle/Bojuka bog, and going upto 27/28 lands post-side. Keeping on 6-7 lands against RuG wins you the game, running Oracle supplements this plan. By starting the match as 61/14, then going to 60/15 and maindecking the additional land (Bojuka Bog), you are essentially quasi-preboarding against these tempo decks, while still enabling its combo-stopping potential. The rest of the cards in the sideboard are too one-sided to preboard, and would gum up your works due to being nonholistic against other-matchups, so I am not testing 62/13, 63/12, 64/11, etc, however if there were sideboard cards I "always" side in, then this could be considered. The closest card I would place in this role is Venser, which I have maindecked already for other reasons. Next would be flusterstorm, which has play against nearly all decks, but in previous maindeck testing has been hindering. This was before the heyday of DRS however, so the card may require re-testing.
My thoughts in a nutshell.
Last edited by Rock Lee; 08-01-2013 at 12:29 PM.
2 Cards Ive been heavily testing main, somewhat a response to rock lee's fluster comment:
Cavern of souls
With your creature count ballooning to 12, has cavern of souls re-entered your list of potentials? Even when I was only on 3 aliens, 4 titan and 1 trinket mage, I felt so secure in the fact that that angle was always a possibility. To maximize this, I keep the full 4 maps. I don't shave a basic for it either.
Flusterstorm
This was somewhat a product of the cavern, where a very real line can be just forcing through an enabler>cavern to get to titan. Another reason was that I found myself siding it in very often, as often as every single game 2. It opens up many more safe situations to crop rotate, or just jam through whatever other key spell you're on. I like it against elves noncreature spells, hymm, stifle, tempo, COMBO. Just all upside. Really enjoy the dual offensive and defensive role its fallen into my game plan.
This also puts the blue count high enough to consider FOW main, and finally free up a little space for some straight aggro hate in side..
Great invitational showing, glad the bog was around
Glad to see you in this thread Tim! I know you are one of the folks who have the deck sleeved up and are really waiting for me or others to place at larger events before picking it up full time.
Regarding Cavern, I dont' share any creature types: Giant, Eldrazi, Wizard, Elf, Human, Shaman are all covered and don't overlap. The simple fact that I can't use cavern mana for sorcery/instants is such a detracting flaw for me, since I operate this deck as the best control deck in the format at the moment, so early mana reliability is enormous. Perhaps if I had creature-based mana production, we would talk, but that is another deck entirely.
Fluster is always oscillating between the sideboard and the maindeck. I ran fluster main when Storm as at its height and even then found the card lackluster in itself. The card is at its greatest when adjuncted with hard counters to facilitate a counterwar that is won with fluster, or to initially curb a threat and then win later with those hard counters (glimpse/silence examples). Thus I think a serious redesign would be required for me to try fluster.
All this being said, I need to seriously reinvestigate Dark Depths combo, after the lands deck with dark depth went 7-1 at the invitational.
Tested both a U/G and mono green version of Thespian stage combo, and I always felt behind. I think the only shell that works well with the deck is Lands. Losing two lands was both too risky, still lost to wasteland, and required recursion built in, neither methods of which are strong at the moment due to DRS, abrupt decay, and eldrazi triggers.
Just "won" / split the top 4 at Die Hard. Everyone else walked away with non underground duals, and I walked away with the undergrounds, so take it as you wish. I ran x2 glen elendra over the I stones and only 1 show and tell sb.
Oracle was amazing all day. Straight won my 3 games alone.
Grats! Same decklist? We're not that convinced yet so haven't made the change.
In the post before yours I mention the changes
I do like oracle a lot, but as I've used it on and off I'm not certain what it's role is. It seems to be better in match ups that are more favorable to begin with, and weaker against tougher matchups. For example, against shardless BUG oracle is a nice and dodges all removal, but that matchup is overall very winnable. Similar situation with x-blade. But against RUG (what I've personally always struggled with) it turns on their removal, and is still pretty pricey (cavern helps, lol). And combo - it isn't very relevant compared to the rest of the 75. Very often to me its a 4 mana 1 turn exploration, which keeps me on the fence. Thoughts? Anyone?
Also intrigued by Glen-Elandra, but not sure yet..
Oracle's purpose is strictly to uneven potentially explosive bug/esper hands while still presenting a must-bolt target for rug. With proper okay you can still get your extra land. Lastly, this card is amazing at zero cards, whereas exploration is completely dead. Obviously it gets sided out for most forms of combo
And yet another weekly win at my local weekly venue. 29 people, 5$ entry, prizes for top 8 standings, 5-0 vs oops all spells, ant storm, elves combo, u/w miracles, and rug delver. All competitive deck lists and pilots. Ice Imports in Windsor is the best location for a trifecta of testing, great prizes, and encouraging/educating upcoming players. Completely unsolicited, they deserve my wholehearted endorsement.
Two weeks running I've walked away with a goyf and a karakas, each at 5$ apiece. Great prizes for lower standings as well. The store dumps more than their entry into future weeks prizes. Hands down the best Legacy training grounds I've ever heard of, and definitely the best of many stores I have attended. Show up and see!
I second this. I attend the same weekly event and all that was said above holds true. Steadily becoming a breeding ground for some very strong legacy players. Always a respectful forum atmosphere were we try to dig up the turning points of each match. Amazing test value here.
I jammed ug post at this same event, too. Played Merfolk, Burn, ANT, Elves, and Sneak and Show - losing only to Merfolk. All tougher matchups in my opinion.
Some changes, compared to rock lees recent post included 1 map 2 o-stone over repeal, and 1 show and tell over a venser, forest over 5th fetch. Side included tabernacle, drop of honey and 12 counters. All of them performed very well. I still like o stone because its easily cast and is a "proactive" approach to answering your opponent, which is nice for an archetype that's often on its heels. Venser, while it won a game or two felt clunky - which I attribute to the types of decks I faced. Drop of honey was to triple time walk DRS decks, and see if it deserves another slot - was solid against elves(!), but overall seems like there are better options still. Oracle is nuts. Even got there swinging with oracle that just dropped its date counter, boom.
Most importantly the "density" approach to side boarding rock lee outlined was the main "tech" that I was personally testing at this event, and it proved extremely powerful and guided me through a night of more difficult linear strategies listed above. However the Merfolk matchup hurts and idk where to begin answering that matchup. Thoughts?
Merfolk showing up was jarring. I mentioned that I had to run x4 all is dust to compete with a Merfolk meta in its day. I say more shows main, go upto 4 total post side. O stone is beast there. Still not a matchup I want to see. The drop of honeys might merit a spot if Merfolk becomes decent with their m14 paralyze.
In a Merfolk-heavy meta, is Ratchet Bomb or Powder Keg a considered card? After all, the major lords are 2 CMC with some potent 3CMC cards.
Sadly those are too slow by far. Elephant grass is the best card against Merfolk, with a sweeper to finish, but the sideboard feels so tight with my 12+ sb cards specifically against combo. This may need some consideration to if this is overkill or not. Additionally, I don't think Merfolk is a meta presence, simply showing up interestingly in my particular meta last week
I've been testing mono green stage/depths combo and I find it working quite nicely. With so many lands I found that I needed some exploration/sakura-tribe scout or explore/whatever. With this said, I also threw in some maze of ith so it became a weird lands/post hybrid. I don't consider myself a 12 post expert (I do play a mono green budget version, which still performs nicely against most decks) but its quite hilarious to play.
I found dark depths combo was far too much commitment, and too easily disrupt able. If you give me a list I'll test it though.
Play tested quite a few depths builds, very rarely is it the most optimal line to take. Having gathered that many resources, specific lands nonetheless, there's equal or better things to be doing- therefore not worth watering down the deck. It makes the deck want to be mono G and then a lands deck..not UG
I got 3rd at ice this week. My only loss to elves on a greedy keep game 1 and an absurdly resilient hand game two for him. Foolish of me, but a good lesson.
For the first time ever I am seriously testing a zero-candelabra build. 4 main deck show and tells. All the cards candelabra would counter are beaten down by abrupt decay's presence, and the card itself is a liability against a smart player and stifle. I have mentioned that meta shifts could precipitate this shift in the candelabra count from 0-4, so don't get your hopes up about the deck being significantly more economic in the long term, but in a stifle/decay saturated meta, where post-side you have 15 omni hate cards, the deck can afford to simultaneously go up show and tells while going down candelabras.
In other news, I am adding vapor snag up my list of cards in the two slot of aggro hate in the sb.
I can get behind returning to the 1 trinket Mage 1 candelabra plan, but I've found 2 to be nice and cozy with my base.
What is everyone's approach to UWR delver? I'm not a fan of this matchup. Geist wasteland stifle and tempo can really be rough.
I half jokingly added DRS to my list and a sea. And while it'd further warp my already green heavy land base. It's a real great way to keep early mana alive, beat tempo and often chump block +2 life. All that DRS does. Turn 2 show and tell. Drastically changes the early stages of the aggro and midrange match, by avoiding early mana denial and often causing them to spend a turn killing it instead of developing their board. To me it has been less narrow than elephant grass and moments peace. Cons include turning on otherwise dead cards for them, and being weak late game - similar problems candelabra has..
I'm going to jam this at least in the aggro slots in the board, probably main and see what happens.
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