sinkhole is bad and that makes me sad

[thefreakaccident]

I try to keep up with all the new additions, but nothing works anymore, straight manadenial IS a thing of the past. I feel that pure control, focusing on the board, is something that should never be pushed out entirely, but I fear that day has come. I personally have tested probably every single incarnation of lands, loam, stax, braids, with every single combination of land destruction and removal spells that this format has to offer, and board control is dead, entrely, utterly. Black is no longer a color for control, but a combo color. To explain further, it needs to be combined with fasts clocks either in the form of efficienti beats or quick combo, and has no merit on its own except for the occasional synergy with jace, mindsculpter.

I digress, but my point is valid, stax, pikula, land destruction is out of the picture for good. Is this a good thing? No! It is limiting the potential of the game by limiting the variety of ways in which a player can win the game, I.e. landlock them. And no, I don't feel like new gimmicky instant Win combos or 1 mana 3/2 beatsticks behind infinite countermagic is the right way to go. Black needs a low mana removal spell that can kill multiple large creatures, or they need to redesign an updated sinkole that kills 2 lands for 2 mana, because seriously, that's the only way sinkhole will ever compete again, if it gets better. Do we really want to play in a format where sinkhole is just plain bad/too slow? I call bullshit, and if I ever get the chance to make my own card it will be overpowered enough to make black land destruction viable again. I want to be able to clear my opponents boards again like In the olden days. Veteran explorer is a decent 'black deck' but it is seriously the only one, loses to combo and quick draws straight up, AND doesn't touch lands.


To sum everything I've just said up: I'm butthurt that theyve made infinite ways for people to dodge manadenial, but they haven't given any equally opposing tools to keep manadenial viable, and it has thus fallen to the wayside, hard. No, decks that pack 4stifle/4wasteland delver and cantrips ARE NOT what I'm talking about.

[allek]

Obviously I have no source on this but I know I've seen WOTC comment on land destruction as being boring for new/casual players and therefore it is highly unlikely that we'll see new playable LD-spells. EVER. That makes me a sad panda too, I love Sinkhole.

[Lemnear]

What are you expecting?

According to WotC casual players are bitching that Landdestruction and not being able to play your spells as a result of that mana denial is "unfun" (aside from Vintage's MUD decks, but WotC don't care for that format so it's ok there if you'll never be able to cast a spell against 2 dozen of sphere-effects) and they stopped printing land destruction up to the current point where all the tool-lands became a slight problem for Modern (and Legacy).

As a result, Landdestruction is still in the early 2000's while the threats of todays decks became better and cheaper with every expansion released and even Sinkhole with it's low cost is too slow for all the Delvers, Tarmogoyfs, SFM's, Elves and storm-combos.

The power creep of the last 6 years outclassed ol' 4cc cost control permaments like Braids and Smokestack. Even humility and Moat struggle to remain their spots in current controls 4cc spot (thanks to omnipotent Jace) and the issue of being outclassed is not only Limited to Black control but to nearly all cards/strategies of the early 2000's or have you seen any Werbear's, Psychatogs, Madness.dec, Spiritmonger, Decree of Justice, Exalted Angel, Wrath of God, lately?

Black remains a good Color for Control, as long as you define if with creature-control and discard. Land-destruction was shifted to red and then droped by WotC as mentioned. Nothing we can do, pal.

I describe the Situation with Microsofts very own meme: "Deal with it!"



P.S.: Don't expect me being pleased with similar decisions Taken by WotC like stripping Black from conditional Tutors, balanced "Life for value" cards or Ritual-effects

[sco0ter]

Obviously I have no source on this but I know I've seen WOTC comment on land destruction as being boring for new/casual players and therefore it is highly unlikely that we'll see new playable LD-spells. EVER.

And rightfully so. I recently played against a Sinkhole/Vindicate/Acid Rain/Wasteland/Hymn... deck and it was the most boring game ever, because I sat there for 15 minutes doing basically nothing, but playing lands (which got destroyed right away) and/or discarding cards (because I couldn't play anything). I never had more than 2 lands, most of time only 1.

Granted, it was in a casual environment, but the decks were semi-competitive at least, and I can't imagine I'd had more fun when sitting in front of such a deck in a tournament instead.

[thefreakaccident]

And rightfully so. I recently played against a Sinkhole/Vindicate/Acid Rain/Wasteland/Hymn... deck and it was the most boring game ever, because I sat there for 15 minutes doing basically nothing, but playing lands (which got destroyed right away) and/or discarding cards (because I couldn't play anything). I never had more than 2 lands, most of time only 1.

Granted, it was in a casual environment, but the decks were semi-competitive at least, and I can't imagine I'd had more fun when sitting in front of such a deck in a tournament instead.

It's not about your fun.

[frogczar]

I too am saddened by the fact that Wizards strategy of dumbing down the game and eliminating "unfun" deck archetypes has crept into Legacy. What do you expect when they print 1/2 creatures with 3 awesome abilities for 1 hybrid black/green mana? Can you even imagine such a creature being printed even 10 years ago?

To be honest, I've always been a aggro player first and a prison/LD/control player second. Both of these strategies are nearly dead in Legacy and it makes me sad. It's also increasingly difficult to punish greedy manabases with cards like Blood Moon and even Wasteland. Once Deathrite Shaman hits the table, forget about preventing spells in any color from being cast.

That being said, there are ways to adapt, we have the largest card-pool of any format (that people actually still play). There has to be a good answer somewhere.

[Lemnear]

I too am saddened by the fact that Wizards strategy of dumbing down the game and eliminating "unfun" deck archetypes has crept into Legacy. What do you expect when they print 1/2 creatures with 3 awesome abilities for 1 hybrid black/green mana? Can you even imagine such a creature being printed even 10 years ago?

To be honest, I've always been a aggro player first and a prison/LD/control player second. Both of these strategies are nearly dead in Legacy and it makes me sad. It's also increasingly difficult to punish greedy manabases with cards like Blood Moon and even Wasteland. Once Deathrite Shaman hits the table, forget about preventing spells in any color from being cast.

That being said, there are ways to adapt, we have the largest card-pool of any format (that people actually still play). There has to be a good answer somewhere.

It's not DRS or the concept of mana denial would have dead with Alpha aka Birds of Paradise. It's that actual Threats cost a lot less today. You can draw paralles between Serra Angel, Exalted Angel and SFM -> Batterskull and look at the costs going from 5 to 3+4 to 2+2 or compare serendib efreet, Sea Drake with Delver.

[apple713]

I too am saddened by the fact that Wizards strategy of dumbing down the game and eliminating "unfun" deck archetypes has crept into Legacy. What do you expect when they print 1/2 creatures with 3 awesome abilities for 1 hybrid black/green mana? Can you even imagine such a creature being printed even 10 years ago?

To be honest, I've always been a aggro player first and a prison/LD/control player second. Both of these strategies are nearly dead in Legacy and it makes me sad. It's also increasingly difficult to punish greedy manabases with cards like Blood Moon and even Wasteland. Once Deathrite Shaman hits the table, forget about preventing spells in any color from being cast.

That being said, there are ways to adapt, we have the largest card-pool of any format (that people actually still play). There has to be a good answer somewhere.

Pithing needle is under rated. It answers lots of problems for decks. The issue is decks overlook it. It stops all planeswalkers. Many creatures like drs and kotr. It also stops some cobo type cards like sneak attack or candelabra. Further moor it stops lands like wasteland and karakas and maze.

On a seperate note i think because you name a card and not a card type, pithing needle isnt as good as it could be. It should allowyou to prevent all creature from using abilities or all lands and then it should see play.

[Megadeus]

Pithing Needle would be OP. Just play cursed totem if you wanna shut down dudes

[KristinXX]

Pithing needle is under rated. It answers lots of problems for decks. The issue is decks overlook it. It stops all planeswalkers. Many creatures like drs and kotr. It also stops some cobo type cards like sneak attack or candelabra. Further moor it stops lands like wasteland and karakas and maze.

On a seperate note i think because you name a card and not a card type, pithing needle isnt as good as it could be. It should allowyou to prevent all creature from using abilities or all lands and then it should see play.

I agree that Pithinh needle is under rated. There's been so many times I have been up against a planes walker & not had an answer for it & wished pithing needle was in my sideboard. I don't know many answers for planes walkers, they always really roggle me

[Finn]

Death and Taxes is mana and resource denial deck. Is that not what you are looking for?

[Megadeus]

Shit if you are worried about activated abilities play suppression field...

[Lemnear]

Shit if you are worried about activated abilities play suppression field...

Or Phyrexian Revoker ... that one at least beatz

[Barook]

Or Phyrexian Revoker ... that one at least beatz

Revoker doesn't stop lands, though.

Problem is that pretty much any pure LD above 0 man (Wasteland) sucks nowadays. Stifle is good enough against fetchlands, but comes with extra utility.

Let's imagine something like this would see print in Commander or whatever (not Modern/Standard-legal) - would it be playable?

Neo Sinkhole
Sorcery
Neo Sinkhole can't be countered.
Destroy target non-basic land.

I doubt it would see play.

The best thing we could hope for is probably a pitch-Stifle effect in a non-blue color in an set aimed for the eternal market.

[Koby]

It's not about your fun.

This is so true it's beyond words.

Who is to say that because you can't have fun when I play my cards that I should suffer from WotC policy by removing my enjoyment? That in itself is fun-limiting. </griefer>

[nedleeds]

It's not DRS or the concept of mana denial would have dead with Alpha aka Birds of Paradise. It's that actual Threats cost a lot less today. You can draw paralles between Serra Angel, Exalted Angel and SFM -> Batterskull and look at the costs going from 5 to 3+4 to 2+2 or compare serendib efreet, Sea Drake with Delver.

Delver, Show and Tell. I mean ... you can keep somebody on Island and they can still crush you. Or drop Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell <tard face>. You would have to pair all the successful mana denial with a lock piece like Trinisphere. Once you are going there you're just better off trying to power the 3ball out before the LD. Then why not just play Armageddon?

As for Sinkhole the card.

[Anusien]

This is so true it's beyond words.

Who is to say that because you can't have fun when I play my cards that I should suffer from WotC policy by removing my enjoyment? That in itself is fun-limiting. </griefer>

When I'm sitting down trying to win a tournament, I want to win, and I don't care if you have any fun. I will seek out the most degenerate combo decks and limit your ability to interact with me.

But stepping away from the tournament for a minute and just looking at Magic; it's a game. People play to have fun. If, on the whole, players don't have fun at tournaments, they will quit going.

[Humphrey]

Sinkhole already sucked long time before. I eventually sold mine in 2008.

And what do you want to achieve with cheap(er) LD? It would only help decks with delver and friends.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Sinkhole was never really a top tier card anyways. The problem is Sinkhole either is going to blow the game wide open or they are just going to replace the land and move on. Then late game while you are topdecking irrelevant Sinkholes they are topdecking spells that are going to ruin your day. If you want to play Sinkhole play Pox or even better go to GenCon and play 4x Sinkhole, 4x Hymn, 4x Strip Mine in the Peasant World Champs.

[Lejay]

If you really need to play land destruction try pithing needle + gitaxian probe.