[Primer/Deck] Pox

[FTW]

While I see nothing wrong with the Green splash, Deathrite Shaman is obviously not good with Innocent Blood or Smallpox. Smallpox is a potential blowout card to the opponent and Shaman makes Smallpox much much worse.

Traditional Pox runs ~11 sacrifice effects (Innocent Blood, Smallpox, Pox). The list I posted only runs 4, meaning there really isn't that much pressure on Shaman. Modern Smallpox/Loampox lists have shown that you can run 4 Smallpox in lists with value creatures since you are not necessarily going to be Poxing on every turn... And you can always chump with DRS first or sac a Bloodghast to Smallpox. Or add Kitchen Finks as more sac fodder.

I think it's worth testing, since DRS is so powerful right now and it stops GY interactions (something Pox typically is weak against in game 1).

[mujadaddy]

I have always thought that the Rack/Discard build killed the fastest even if it misses the soft lock the LD lists have.

I've been wondering about this, too; leaning hard on Discard & The Rack along with 'fatties' like Liliana and Oppression, in Mono.

I've not had enough time to test, but the thinking goes something like:

1) Forget LD entirely, forget creatures entirely, and go heavy discard (1xRaven's Crime, 2xDuress/2xIoK, Hymn, Liliana, 1xOppression, Funeral Charm, etc.) plus 4 Rack and 0-3 Racks
2) 4xBig Pox, because it shortens the game, for good or ill
3) Dark Ritual for explosiveness
4) 4-8 additional Answers for critters (both sac & targeted)

The line of play is to just rip their hand away as hard & fast as possible, drop multiple Racks, and keep up the pressure of them not having anything to do.

I know it's not perfect, but I've been gone a while and wanted to make a post about what I'm thinking on. I have a specific list, but it needs much more playtesting. I've been trying very hard to squeeze in at least a single Surgical Extraction to take advantage of the discard and to hose narrow.combo.dec early on, but the problem is sacrificing the ability to defend yourself, broadly, from the opponent's board-state.

Most of the deck lists I've seen ITT use the manland plan, or ; is there any discussion I've missed with respect to going Full Discard Pox?

[Hardcore]

My experience with discard suggest that one need card draw, in order to avoid that the opponent get an opportunity to recover (when you draw lands).
A permanent that discard cards is also desirable for that reason.

A draft could look like this:

4 Liliana of the veil
4 bottomless pit
4 phyrexian arena
4 hymn to Tourach
4 smallpox
4 pox
4 The rack
4 shrieking affliction
4 Raven 's crime (to discard to pox effects)
4 dark Ritual (optional)

If one play with no rituals there well be plenty of room for a toolbox.

Finally: lots of swamps

[mujadaddy]

@Hardcore

CMC=1 seems to be unavoidable. I wonder if we can afford to exclude the shrieking afflictions for other sources of damage. Then I remember than Cursed Scroll costs also, and I decide that Ratchet Bomb *must* be included. But then I can't really find room.

If you have a ton of card draw, you negate the 3x Ensnaring Bridge SB plan I had for swarm. (I ran 2 Arenas in my Snowpox deck from a few years back, but that was basically aggro pox, and a turn too slow even back then.)

Another thing I was toying with was the idea to not run any Smallpoxes, which would keep your Land Destruction solely in Pox's court (and probably 2-of Wasteland just to be safe)... The replacement of Geth's Verdict ... almost does the exact same thing, at instant speed, and if the deck is packed solid with discard, I reasoned that you wouldn't miss the Smallpox.

Is this stupid? I know it's radical, but with Liliana around, you don't need to fuck yourself over by blowing a land drop early. Which lets you curve the deck better because you're not nuking your land every time you have ...Which also means that in a LONG game, you'll have land to cast something bigger. (I fantasized about having 2 racks out and mind twisting the opponent who thought he had stabilized the situation, but I bet Consume Spirit or something that would win on its own would also work.) Also, not having Smallpox lets you run FEWER lands than a typical Pox build. Those are my thoughts, at least.

[beez]

The problem I had with discard Pox was it can be a bit difficult to guarantee the foe will have no cards and discard can be dead at other times. It is also dead to Chalice of the Void and Leyline of Sanctity, neither of which are all that rare. Lot's of Ratchet Bombs in the board for most Pox decks I would say.

Nevertheless, a discard Pox can be very explosive. A lot of games with my old discard build would just rip it up and be doing 4-6 pts of damage a turn with 2 Rack effects. I outraced a burn deck with it once.

Discard Pox

1 Nether Spirit
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Lilliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozeliek
4 Dark Ritual
4 Raven's Crime
1 Thoughtsieze
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction

4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dakmore Salvage
3 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland
9 Swamp

During mid-late game when you have a Rack or Affliction or two out just Dredge Dakmore and pitch it to Raven's Crime like a maniac.

[Hardcore]

Geth 's verdict is just 1-for-1. Ignore it.


Beez list have different types of win conditions, which should solve the problem with LoS. Still I don't think Inquisition should be in the main deck (unless the Meta is combo heavy). Better to run card draw and creature kill.

[Hardcore]

Why is there no legacy deck that run 4 each of extirpate and surgical extraction?

[mujadaddy]

Geth 's verdict is just 1-for-1. Ignore it.

Although Smallpox hits a card-in-hand and a land, it also hits *your* card-in-hand and *your* land, so we could easily imagine a situation where Smallpox is card disadvantage. That is, Smallpox is also, at its very best, a 1-for-1. It's of course a powerful card for its CMC, but it's *fair* because it hits you, too. Not saying Geth's is the best card ever, just that it does 2 good things and no bad things, at instant speed, and in a deck that doesn't worry about pulling non- lands, it has only advantages over say Diabolic Edict. Plus the use case for having Geth's in a list is that you've already got a great deal of discard.

4xSurgical, 4xExtirpate

Eight slots that require cards in the opponent's graveyard is a bit hit-or-miss. I'd think that something could be done with 2-3 Surgicals + 2-3 Extirpates, though, and my original leaning was to have 4 in Discard Pox (leaning to Surgical cast for "free"). I just kept running out of room. The other problem is that decks with lots of cheap, replaceable dudes invalidate this idea unless you get very lucky. Decks with few or narrow win cons cry, though.

I outraced a burn deck with it once.

Once? I think that the spell Pox knocking off ~7 life is pretty impressive, and that has the potential to deal the rest of this damage while attacking the ability of the opponent to fight back. What I don't think is such a sure thing is the ability to have 60 cards which broadly provide enough protection for you to survive while doing this. That is, Discard Pox is a burn deck of its own, and it might be able with Liliana to get some wins.

[Hardcore]

The arguments for geth 's verdict and against smallpox are weak. The verdict is no better than Diabolic Edict because it has worse mana cost. That one damage to the opponent is too insignificant in most games. Considering the importance of mana cost the Diabolic is probably the better card.
Smallpox then may be considered a 1-for-1 card, but in reality it is 3-for-3 (mostly better!) which is much more brutal on the opponent. Rightly non-pox players always point to smallpox as the best card in the deck.
I understand the wish to find cards that are less symmetrical, but that should not mean you replace the best cards in the deck.

[mujadaddy]

Yeah, I hear you. Just trying to break it, as always!

[Maikhell]

Hail!
So, for a long time i've been playing some pox build and 'till now i'm reaching some solid results.

Here's my, as I call it, "Brazilian Sickness" list:

// Lands
1 [OD] Cabal Pit
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
8 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
3 [MM] Nether Spirit
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [ON] Undead Gladiator

// Spells
2 [MR] Culling Scales
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MBS] Go for the Throat
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
4 [B] Sinkhole
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MR] Culling Scales
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [FBP] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [ ] Metagame Choices


It has a strong start and good late game plan with the SDT and the Undead Gladiator. Also I must say that the Culling Scales is extremely underrated, and paired with the SDT it makes a delicious soft lock. The Fetchs feeds the Tombstalker, shuffles for the SDT and helps the Cabal Pit. The multiple kinds of fetchs avoids Needles and opposite Extirpate.
The only points that I still not sure is about the number of Scales, if it shoud be 2 or 3 and the numbers of Cabal Pits (1 or 2).

Anyway, here is it, and I hope it brings more discussion to the thread...

Also, excuse me for my bad english.

[abetman]

Managed to borrow some cards from a friend and played at a local last couple days ago using this list:

3 wasteland
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 bojuka bog
1 cabal pit
1 dakmor salvage
12 swamp
4 mishras factory
1 tabernacle at pendrell vale
4 liliana of the veil
2 tainted aether
3 mox diamond
1 phyrexian totem
1 crucible of worlds
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
4 small pox
3 dark ritual
3 black mail
1 syphon life
1 trinisphere
SB
3 pithing needle (walkers/sfm)
2 leyline of the void (gy/drs decks)
2 extirpate (combo/gy/permission)
2 relic of progenitus (gy)
1 massacre (white aggro)
1 perish (green aggro)
2 oppression (combo / aggro)
2 infest (aggro)

Got 2-1-1

[abetman]

Got 2-1-1 here's the run down

round 1 - monoblack budget reanimator (2-1),

Game 1 - I owned him with early land d + liliana
Game 2 - he managed to bring back terrastodon and turned my win-cons factory and totem to elephants.
Game 3 - turn 1 leyline gg

round 2 - goblins without ports (2-0)
It was always swamp,mox,hymn,go. Turn two land innocent blood or sinkhole

round 3 - goblins with ports (1-2),
I was delayed by rishadan ports. Also misplayed in grouping his permanents using lili's ultimate which cost me the game.

round 4 - mono white soldiers/human (draw)

Game 1 - I was able to control his early turns, killing all his creatures and managing his lands. Until he establishes a karakas + mangara lock.
Removing all factories, crucible etc, should have conceded earlier

Game 2 - was piece of a cake controlled him early dark rit to trini, sinkhole, liliana, hymn

Game 3 - same as game 2 but would be unable to kill him in just 5 turns.



*props to mox diamonds - I really liked getting them on my opening hand. The explosiveness it gives is too good. Turn 1 hymn, turn 2 liliana.

Although I am thinking on re-organizing my build to be more discard centered and will be taking diamonds out of the build.

[Qweerios]

I am by no means a Pox expert but I have been having notable success against tier 1 decks using this interesting pox brew:


1 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

2 Sylvan Library

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard (15)
3 Extirpate
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Thorn of Amethyst


The deck plays a Control/Prison strategy that relies on the graveyard for card advantage. I found this deck to complement Chalice @1 very nicely because it becomes so much easier to control the flow of the game when your opponent needs to make 2 consecutive basic land drops without us doing anything about it for them to sneak anything through. I usually start by trying to deplete my opponent's lands and creatures as fast as possible, then I rely on Chalice, Liliana, and WasteLoam to prevent my opponent from casting anything, and finally I use aggressive dredging of loam to dig 3 cards deep when I am looking for a way to close out the game. Mishras and Nether Spirit are all made accessible through self-milling and Chalice assures me that they won't be exiled.

The sideboard is very basic but some cards have really proven their worth. EE is extremely potent against Deathrite, Vials, mana stones(Tez), Goyfs, Mongeese, Bobs, CB, RiP, you name it... it does everything I need out of the board at a flexible cost. Thorn is my single most effective combo disruption. Eplague is the best form of permanent hate that I have found against Lingering Souls/Maverick/UR Delver/Elves/Goblins.

The deck is weak to Rest in Peace but can play through and around it, Planeswalkers are bothersome but manageable, and the deck overall has a pretty bad Sneak Show matchup. I originally played with Hymn but discard was always disappointing when I could have been spending my time locking my opponent. I felt very in control against Midrange, Tempo, and Control decks.

[Hardcore]

Shadow of Doubt. Main deck or sideboard card?

[mujadaddy]

Shadow of Doubt. Main deck or sideboard card?

I'm having trouble seeing your use case for this past the first few turns, when you want to be using for Smallpox or Hymn.

But, I've got a pretty sexy 60 at the moment (yes, 4xSmallpox) for which I'm trying to settle on a +15, so let's talk about sideboards in general. I'm going to go reread the primer first and come back; I'm messed up on cold medicine so I'm not thinking very abstractly at the moment about what the bad matchups are.

[Hardcore]

Shadow of doubt is a cantrip. Would not have considered it maindeck otherwise.

As for sideboard... Perish usually have secure place in mine. I recall having tried it maindeck once
(A friend like to have "one-off's" cards in main. Like Surgical Extaction. Worked against me last time so I have considered dpoing that too.)

Now that I think on it Perish is probably the only card i do not change in SB!!!

[mujadaddy]

Shadow of doubt is a cantrip. Would not have considered it maindeck otherwise.

Right, I just can't see really leaving the mana open for it is all; although we're light on instants usually. I can't imagine wanting more than 2 in your 75, and it would be VERY meta-dependent.

"one-off's" cards in main. Like Surgical Extaction.

I also have a few powerful singles (Surgical being one!) so that the wincons (and the deck the opponent sees) are as varied as possible (List will come after some testing; I was sick all weekend ).

Perish

I hate relying on color-specific hosers... but Perish always comes up in the 'Goyf age, doesn't it? I see Massacre a bit in sideboards, too.

[Hardcore]

Elf decks, DRS, Knights, Pridemage, Mongeese, Dryad Arbor, Hiearch, Ooze, Gaddock Teeg, Bloodbraid Elf, Shardless Agent, Garruks green tokens etc. etc. and yeah, goyf:)

What makes Perish useful is that Green creatures can be found in many decks nowadays, and many run the same creatures. They are all good and not likely to be replaced by better creatures of other colors anytime soon.

[beez]

I am by no means a Pox expert but I have been having notable success against tier 1 decks using this interesting pox brew:


1 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

2 Sylvan Library

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard (15)
3 Extirpate
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Thorn of Amethyst


The deck plays a Control/Prison strategy that relies on the graveyard for card advantage. I found this deck to complement Chalice @1 very nicely because it becomes so much easier to control the flow of the game when your opponent needs to make 2 consecutive basic land drops without us doing anything about it for them to sneak anything through. I usually start by trying to deplete my opponent's lands and creatures as fast as possible, then I rely on Chalice, Liliana, and WasteLoam to prevent my opponent from casting anything, and finally I use aggressive dredging of loam to dig 3 cards deep when I am looking for a way to close out the game. Mishras and Nether Spirit are all made accessible through self-milling and Chalice assures me that they won't be exiled.

The sideboard is very basic but some cards have really proven their worth. EE is extremely potent against Deathrite, Vials, mana stones(Tez), Goyfs, Mongeese, Bobs, CB, RiP, you name it... it does everything I need out of the board at a flexible cost. Thorn is my single most effective combo disruption. Eplague is the best form of permanent hate that I have found against Lingering Souls/Maverick/UR Delver/Elves/Goblins.

The deck is weak to Rest in Peace but can play through and around it, Planeswalkers are bothersome but manageable, and the deck overall has a pretty bad Sneak Show matchup. I originally played with Hymn but discard was always disappointing when I could have been spending my time locking my opponent. I felt very in control against Midrange, Tempo, and Control decks.

That is an interesting spin. Ratchet Bombs could help against RIP