You've wasted a nice chance that I'll ever read your reports just by the fact that you act like a jilted lover.Originally Posted by Lemnear
If you always meet idiots that can't play DRS correctly and simultaneously give you all the time you need and their only discard is Persecute Artist, than I really question where (and whom) exactly you play. Must be those tournamets that start at 1:00 pm during the pause between Gymnastics and Music and singing. In real life, there's that thing called variance and not every time you have a perfect hand (or the ability to sculpt your hand for X turns to get and keep the double Tutor AND acceleration AND maybe even protection). Sometimes (while not always) you don't have the luxury to just laugh at it, sometimes they just defeat you with the said shaman.
I can also win through DRS, I can win through anything, even foil Trinisphere andMind Twist on turn0. But saying that DRS does nothing is stupid, because that creature has words written all over it, so it must do something, unless it's a flavor text.
I seriously question if my friend wasn't right about all the net forums. "I don't join any of them, and even if I do, I hardly ever write or ask anything. All the people act like they're Superman and Obama combined: their hands auto-mull to eleven cards, their FoWs come glued to Ancestrals, and their penises are double the size of yours, no matter that you're native Uganda-born."
I'm done with you and I simply don't care of your other blathering how you're the best planeswalker ever.
How come? DRS can't do any harm, read what Teh Master has to say about it. You just do something something while they just stare, then do that and that and then in response [drumroll] you pull the rabbit out of silk hat and Chaos Orb their elf.
Anyone ever try playing a tutor/cantrip base of:
4 IT
1 B.Wish
1 Personal Tutor
2 LDV
4 Brainstorm
X Ponder
Y Preordain
1 Gemstone Mine
------------------------
It would mean switching up your sideboard only by 2-3 cards to use this setup as efficiently as needed for those corner-case situations it's needed for. I've been toying with a proxied version so I can test against it with my Deathblade list, and while my list isn't for this thread, it uses this setup and has been quite the contender at least against deathblade. Not the worst matchup for storm, but still fairly difficult when they know you are combo. I would like to hear some discussion on this matter, as I think it shores up some arguments. Here's another argument settled in my opinion: Grim Tutor. It sucks. I tried and tried in tons of different builds to make them useful or good. They are clunky. They are painful, and they are simply not synergistic with the number of mana produced by the mana-accelerants of the deck, or with Ad Nauseam because of the quadruple black mana required to play Grim and Ad Nauseam in the same turn.
-ABC
EDIT: I've also been dwelling on an idea lately that looks to use DRS within storm, as black's first and extremely good mana dork. It mini-tendrils by itself and is also on-color with Swarm and Abrupt Decay. Using Diabolic Intent for a Tutor would be an awesome possibility (play it off a Swarm after attacking with said Swarm) or off the deathrite that helped pay for it. Then there is Culling the Weak. I don't know if its a possible direction, as I am sceptical of creatures within storm. Just floating the idea.
Great quote. It applies pretty well to both sides of this little spat. It applies to me too, except that all those things are true for me
I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread (the world?) knows how to play through Deathrite Shaman, and also that sometimes you can't. You both are acting like you're menstruating.
Did you pull those numbers from a lotto machine? Pretty sure there's been discussion of Personal Tutor before and that it's still worse than the other options. Burning Wish at least puts the card in your hand and gives you access to conditionally powerful cards...unless you're only playing one. Then you're just messing with your sideboard for a 1-of. LDV is a fine card as IT 5-6, but seems to require some slight deck tweaks (Top). Grim Tutor may suck, but playing an awkward amalgamation of random tutors sucks more.
This made my day. I'm tempted to put it in my sig.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
That's more or less acceptable, but I find 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 2 Island, 1 Swamp and then all U/G Fetchlands with a Tropical Island and a Bayou in the SB is generally more reliable because in the 16 cantrip version of the deck you want to be able to Island, Cantrip. Island, Cantrip, Cantrip thru' Wasteland and win on your third turn as your go to play. You rarely lead with Duress or Cabal Therapy in the cantrip build, at least in game one, instead you lead with Pre-Ordain or Ponder into a Gitaxian Probe by turn 2 and then you know whether or not you need to fetch the Swamp in order to play thru' a counter wall + the possibility of Wasteland over multiple turns.
@People: Xantid Swarm is not for aggro-control, between Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning, Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares it's unreliable at best, Xantid Swarm is for the Show&Tell match up where a resolved Leyline of Sanctity turns off your entire disruption suite otherwise or for any match up that doesn't have an answer to it like Reanimator, High Tide or Merfolk etc.
I think the TES vs ANT arguments are incredibly fucking misinformed, because neither deck is played in a gold fishing vacuum. TES will have a better game in discard or permanent based hate environments, i.e. Jund, Miracles or Maverick where ANT will have a better game in aggro-control environments like RUG, BUG and Blade because of the speed and redundancy vs the stability and consistency respectively. The problem I have with Burning Wish variants of ANT is that people are playing them in environments where TES would be more suitable, I've never played the Grim Tutor version of ANT because of the price of Grim Tutor but facially I can understand why somebody would play it with so much discard in the metagame.
As far as the 1 kill condition getting discarded and removed from the game, I don't think it happens often enough to be worried about it, but one of the things I've been mulling over for awhile is whether or not Ad Nauseam should be replaced with Empty the Warrens in the MD because both cards often have redundant functions vs a lot of the same decks but Empty the Warrens is cheaper and not dependent on your life total. The only draw back to SBing Ad Nauseam is that you probably aren't going to win any of your combo mirros based on speed, but meh.
I'm not asking to be snarky, but would it not be better to fill that slot with something that can be used in the aggro control matchups? (ie Defense Grid) Even with plenty of discard, RUG and UWR Devler aren't exactly walks in the park. I'd go so far to say that any of those decks would be glad to sit across from a Storm player.
I admit that my having awful luck might skew my thinking here, but I've lost every game against Shardless BUG where I've been unlucky enough to naturally draw my Tendrils without a way to Brainstorm it away. This happened twice out of several games last night... the first I got my Tendrils discarded to Hymn or something, followed by him activating his t1 Nihil Spellbomb. The second time, I had a sick hand of double Ritual, double LED, and Infernal Tutor. The downside was that I also had my only Tendrils in hand and he had an active Deathrite. I wait and hope to draw out of it, eat some discard, and lose on the spot. Maybe the answer is simply to board into a second Tendrils against discard?
I think it's a psychological problem where the time it does happen, it traumatizes you to the point where you never want it to happen again regardless of whether or not it's objectively good to play Burning Wish etc. I think the second Tendrils is probably not objectively good as well, but I'd really recommend you try cutting Ad Nauseam from the deck in favor of Empty the Warrens.
Haven't messed around with Defense Grid in Storm in a really long time, so I honestly can't say whether or not it's worth playing just to increase the amount of disruption vs aggro-control. My gut feeling is that two mana is too much for any disruption spell in Storm and probably wouldn't be any better than more discard considering the abundance of Abrupt Decay. If I were really tight on SB space, maybe, but I don't usually find that to be a problem in ANT. If you want to play around with it then go for it and let me know if I'm wrong, but I don't really so much potential in the card because I already do pretty well vs RUG and Blade as is.
On another note, LDV and Top seem really good in the metagame right now, I think Carsten is probably on to something with top deck manipulation vs extra cantripping in a Thoughtseize run world.
It's your choice to ignore the detailed reports I once handed out to demystify the TES deck and give insight how to tackle certain matchups (most peeps on the Source found them very enteraining and helpful; maybe you'll get over it and take a peek), just for the reason we two have a heated discussion about how relevant DRS is against decks which aim to present a lethal PIF/AN/EtW within the first 3 turns of their game.You've wasted a nice chance that I'll ever read your reports just by the fact that you act like a jilted lover.
If you always meet idiots that can't play DRS correctly and simultaneously give you all the time you need and their only discard is Persecute Artist, than I really question where (and whom) exactly you play. Must be those tournamets that start at 1:00 pm during the pause between Gymnastics and Music and singing. In real life, there's that thing called variance and not every time you have a perfect hand (or the ability to sculpt your hand for X turns to get and keep the double Tutor AND acceleration AND maybe even protection). Sometimes (while not always) you don't have the luxury to just laugh at it, sometimes they just defeat you with the said shaman.
I can also win through DRS, I can win through anything, even foil Trinisphere and
I seriously question if my friend wasn't right about all the net forums. "I don't join any of them, and even if I do, I hardly ever write or ask anything. All the people act like they're Superman and Obama combined: their hands auto-mull to eleven cards, their FoWs come glued to Ancestrals, and their penises are double the size of yours, no matter that you're native Uganda-born."
I'm done with you and I simply don't care of your other blathering how you
Sadly you still lack an explaination why TES is a bad deck due to Burning Wish rather than just BECAUSE the deck contains the card. :/
It would be really helpful if you stop the habit of making bold claims about things you never tested (Gemstone Mine), things a third Person just told you (Basic-less 4c manabase) or things you imagine/Wish for (all ~30 Players in my tournament just being bad at the game 'cause you can't stand me or my arguments).
You can insult me, but attacking the credibility of other people by a strawman is classless even if the Obama/Superman speach was excellent. :)
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
It would be really helpful if you stop the habit of making bold statement about what I ever tested or not. Also, if you can't understand hyperbole (e.g.: I don't think that every person you ever met is an idiot), feel free to skip my posts.It would be really helpful if you stop the habit of making bold claims about things you never tested (Gemstone Mine), things a third Person just told you (Basic-less 4c manabase) or things you imagine/Wish for (all ~30 Players in my tournament just being bad at the game 'cause you can't stand me or my arguments).
Look it up, then. I already wrote it: the clunky multi-BW/IT hands, strange Brainstorms, a bit harder decision trees and Chrome Mox alone would be enough, but the FACT THAT TES ISN'T A DTB may quench your curiosity.Sadly you still lack an explaination why TES is a bad deck due to Burning Wish rather than just BECAUSE the deck contains the card. :/
But I may be mistaken. After all, what is good and what's not is personal opinion, right?
No, I chose to do so because I don't like pompous people.It's your choice to ignore the detailed reports I once handed out to demystify the TES deck and give insight how to tackle certain matchups..., just for the reason we two have a heated discussion.
/menses
The DtB section on TheSource isn't defined by a decks strength and Individual performance but indicates trends and the frequency you'll face the deck. ANT is a much more likely storm.dec to face than TES thus it remains here.
The fact that we had Burn.dec/Meerfolk/etc. listed as a DtB for ages and that there's a current discussion about the parameters to define a DtB in the Community Section of the forum might give a clue, that being listed as a DtB isn't all that important.
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
lemnear is a tes player, so i cant blame him for his vision about storm combo. i play both decks and when i play tes, some hands makes me think that ant is the way to go XDD, but well, i won a candelabra of tawnos playing tes
Anyway, the think is that ant and tnt are equally good. is a metagame choice and nothing else
In favor of Lemnear
TES is much more difficult to play than ANT, this is a fact, the reason - you have a much larger decisión tree,
I've won several Tournaments with ANT (more small than big tournaments) and not many with TES, Thats why when gitaxian appeared made TES much better as the decisión tree is smaller, At first I did not want to play Gitaxian for this same reason, In order to play TES perfectly you need to have a brain that can memorize all possibles plays OR have been played TES for years, you also need to 'smell' your opponent.
I've won tournaments with DDFT, topeitghted in a 80 people with DDFT, but not yet with TES,
On difficult matter for me: TES > DDFT > ANT, at least for me, DDFT once you know the piles is quite easy to play.
My Parfait Build
My Psychatog Build
Yes, I am advanced and you know it...
Suggestion: Play Magic as a Hobby. Competitiveness is uniquely usefull in this Era and just to evolve the human being to a certain extent...
Why do you nitpick up just one parameter I defined? Also, check "why Doomsday sucks" thread to learn about the "unforgiving" and "hard to master" decks. Sadly, I must quote IBA, but the reason why some of the decks are not played / don't Top8 is the fact that they're... unforgiving, hard to master and bad.
Btw, I didn't even wrote that TES is bad, as you still try to put into my keyboard. I wrote it's worse than ANT, not bad per se. In fact I assume TES a Tier 1,5 deck. Tier 2 at worst.
On sounds and such:
You still ask for a sound reasoning on my lands. I already wrote two times that (mainly when you're on the play) you may easily go for the non-basics because the opponent can't start wasting (even if he starts with Waste, which isn't 100% guaranteed; it's neither a basic land nor Relentless Rats) you without deploying threats and/or keeping mana open for Pierce/Snare/REB/Stifle. The only reason why I tinker with an idea of keeping one basic in (read: Island) are those hands (namely when on draw) where we open with a sole fetch. So or so, fetching an Island lets you Ponder/BS on turn 1, then again on turn 2 (and keep the second fetch uncracked in case you fear Waste) and then burst on turn 3. So yes, I think I'll use 4 Delta, 4 Tarn, 1 Island, 6 nonbasics (alternatively 2 Tarn + 2 Mire to be able to fetch Bayou, but I much more like the ability to sell the Mires), but that's about that. On the Gem Mine affair: we can't fetch the land, so there's little gain in it's 5-color mana ability, as we don't see it often enough. I'd rather have my lands that tap for less mana (but I may search the necessary one with a fetchland) and I'd rather don't use (many) basics so that I may have access to any color I need, which is crucial esp. post-sb, when you need green for your sb cards, etc. (That's also the reason why I hesitate to cut Bayou. But I'm not willing to move it into sb to save slots.)
On tests:
You are mistaken by the fact that I wrote "lets see what happens" concerning the tourney that starts tomorrow evening. This doesn't mean that this setting is untested. First of all, Slosh tested it and plays it without much trouble. I wasn't at a tournament with it yet (hence the "lets see..." phrase), but a) I tested it a lot (there's a miraculous program called Magic:the Workstation that lets you test over the internet; it's completely free and you may spend hours with friends... hey, even with randoms - but in this case remember to immediatelly quit any person that greets you "ciao" or "salut".) and b) I believe in what Slosh says and to his experience. I know that it might make you jealous (what other reason would be to try to convince me that it's you not Slosh - or anyone else out of all the internet alter egos that frequent this site -, who's right). Look: I may trust anyone I wish to and I decided to trust to (and try) Slosh's approach.
On lands:
Basically one may try the "old" lands composition of the "old" decks (I mainly think of UBr ANT/Iggy Pop) that sports up to three basics and dodges Waste like a champ. But I don't feel comfortable with me not having access to colored mana in the "new" lists that incorporate several colored spells esp. in post-board games. For the reasons stated above (and also as an offer to you) I decided to run at least the miser's Island so that I'm not stuck landless when I open with the infamous one-lander and Ponder bricks. Imagine it's fetchable GemMine.
As for DRS (and trust me, this is painful to write, cause everybody knows how to play around him and still everybody loses to him/her/whatever-its-gender sometimes.):
You act like DRS shortcut stands for Woodland Druid, but honestly, DRS has even more text all around him and none of it is a flavour one. In fact it has three abilities that use words "exile" and "graveyard" very close to each other. You may argue as hard as you can and pretend that you don't care of DRS (and thus look very pompous), but if you'd take a minute to read your own words, you'll realize that DRS at least forces you to rethink your usual play and change plans adequatelly, sometimes he even forces you to twiddle for turns until you got your double-IT hand or whatever - read: DRS does something. Which is hardly the same as "DRS does nothing". This is esp. true when they are on play and start with him turn 1; this way the guy (or girl) suppresses thresh, eats life total and generally does a lot to stop both AdN and PiF. Also, when we're at it: how come you're always having double-IT hand (and do not fear any opponents' counteracting), while they never have double DRS and sit on triple Swords? Because, you know, they may let you resolve PiF and then eat both the ITs and let you durdle with Ponder->Ponder->Preordain->BS->GP->loss to Norwood Ranger, all this while pretending that you even have mana for this stuff, because CRit doesn't have all the death metal skulls over it when you have three cards in gy, so you needed to sac LED to pay for PiF.
If you want to play the game where you name a combo, then I name one that stops it, then you name another one.. make a different thread. However, this point counterpoint thing is fucking pointless. And Deathrite Shaman is not Sanctuary Cat, go check them.
Dude, I don't fear DRS. Btw, when speaking of MtG, I fear nothing. Hey, I'm the person who takes a completely non-basics ANT to our lgs and goes home with Tundra tomorrow evening. But writing crap like you wrote above makes you look like it's you who knows about the ANT exactly the same as DRS does against it. (Now, I wanna see how you'll cope with this gimmick...)Take a look at my fucking reports in my sig to see how irrelevant DRS against storm are and save your "but, but, but you have no idea!" crap.
I don't agree with either of you, not only are Badlands, Tropical Island and Bayou a liability in the MD but they're also completely unnecessary, provided you're not playing Burning Wish, the only red cards in your deck are Past in Flames and Empty Warrens and the only green cards in your deck are SBed. Considering SB space in Storm decks is abundant, again provided your not playing Burning Wish, there's no reason to decrease your win percentage vs Wasteland game 1 just in order to save on SB space.
Gemstone Mine is also bad, it's a Wasteland target and it destroys itself after three turns in a deck that frequently plays past turn three vs aggro-control or control in order to provide access to red mana, which you need for at most 2 cards that both come at the end of an Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond activation anyway, and green mana, which you don't need until you SB in Xantid Swarm and/or Abrupt Decay of which you don't SB either vs any deck with Wasteland regardless.
In other news, does any one else think Personal Tutor is borderline playable?
In all honest, just because I'm used to write the HotS-reports piloting TES doesn't mean I do/did not play all previous/current iterations of storm. I'm very familiar with UBr ANT and am amused by the Return of LDV which was a direct substitute for Mystical right after it's banning and sleeve it up here and there for larger tournaments. I do play TRS Doomsday and Elves too. Marking me a TES fanatic is far from the truth.
Choosing the most complex storm iteration just made sense to write in-depths reports and guides about.
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
If Personal Tutor was a instant it would be borderline playable. The ability to tutor for a utility card during your upkeep is pretty good. But the fact is its a sorcery which means that you have to pass your turn in general before you have access to the card you tutor for and it doesn't normally build storm for you. I would rather just play with preordain or a singleton Snapcaster mage.
Yeah, I want to fetch a basic Island most of the time. That is the beauty of the 16-cantrip version. You get to fetch basics then cantrip every turn FTW. So is this what you are running:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire/Scalding Tarn/etc.
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
Then swapping in a Trop and Bayou for two fetches or fetch/Island post board?
Speaking of post-board, I have some questions about what people are boarding out. Here is how I generally view things:
- Preordain: These are the "extra" cantrips. I shave these when I want my full set of Probes and discard (so most blue decks), but something else from the board.
- Gitaxian Probe: These are less useful against decks without counters. They do make Cabal Therapy better but beyond that I would rather have Chain of Vapor/Abrupt Decay. I cut these against decks bringing in permanent based hate.
- Duress: I cut these when I know my opponent is bringing in creature-based permanent hate (Maverick, DnT). However I might leave these in against something like Jund, which is mostly hoping to disrupt you with discard.
Maybe, but your "DRS is nothing" argument is strange. It's easy to play around a DRS theorically, but in real games is more difficult. For example, playing ANT i need a tutor chain or ad nauseam to evade the little elf (going off with pif is possible too of course, but you need a lot o cards), but the decks that runs DRS are packed with a lot of discard, so a turn 1 DRS and a turn 2 Hymn is a very powerful play against ant that is a slower combo than tes, and is a very common play for jund for example. Again, of course Ant can beat a DRS, but there are escenarios where is not that easy.
On build's topic, i think that the real problem is that there is a little space to discuss the card choices because the decklist are so tight
Tbh about 40% of my games against DRS are with TES due to my lack of time to play in general and for the HotS reports and the lil' Elf is a much lesser Problem for the 5c storm if you AN/EtW/DR in the first 3 turns and are less depending on PIF.
Even if I'd love to take that fact and the omnipresence of DRS to label TES the superior choice for a meta packed with Discard and 1cc Hybrid mana graveyard hate, I want to ignore those games and focus on the recent experience piloting UBr ANT (which I do if I expect facing a shitload of mana denial in a meta or am too tired to navigate Wishes for 7+ rounds after a day at work).
I'm used to fetch a Basic Island (that's why I was so biased to see a list without it but a lot of non-blue Duals instead) and just play several cantrips per turn (playing 16-cantrips), floating my biz ontop of my library and gather my mana in hand or on board. Doing this for 3-4 turns should fill your grave to t.hold and beyond, despite an active DRS. All you have to do then is drawing your floated Infernal, play out all your mana and go for the PIF loop and/or Tutor-chain.
Considering DRS alone, that's 6 lost life and 3 removed cards. Sure we won't discuss variations like enabling a turn 3 Bloodbraid Elf into Hymn, but aside the 3 removed cards, which can be negated within the 16-cantrip Version of ANT very easily, he did not harm you more than a Kird Ape which I hyperboled into "doing nothing" as long as he's not Part of a triangle paired with a flurry of discard (Taking all your mana) and increased damage with BBE, Tarmogoyf, an Army of Elves and Shardless Agent which would distract us from the initial question.
Being on the dealing (BGw Elves) and receiving (TES, UBr ANT, TRS Doomsday) end of DRS I dare to disagree with It being itself a real gamebreaker in the storm matchup.
@Secretly.A.Bee
Classy post -.-
Let me get this right...you turn something like this:
which is by all means a simple tutorchain which requires 2 more mana for each additional active DRS into something like:
and that:
neither of which is required, while posting stuff like:
and this
I'm starting to think you are just trying to troll us all.
If the things you posted are meant serious you might take a look at Carsten's latest Article as it is focused on helping people get used to the deck.
No offense...
Greetings Chris
"I came into this world covered in someone else's blood and screaming, I'd like to leave it the same way."
Thanks, I've been reading yours and I gotta say you wouldn't know "classy" if it kicked you in the groin.
As to a second Tendrils, I think it's a wonderful choice. Double tendrils is awesome in the situations being discussed currently (DRS, discard/having ToA in your hand, disallowing you from your win-turn). Really turns that singleton BWish I use into a gem.
-ABC
There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)
