[Primer] Elves!

[Kayradis]

I'm putting a lot of my time to try to find the most optimal configuration for an unknown meta. Anything can happen at a GP.

Pretty sure I'll stick to 18 lands.
1 Dryad Arbor.
4 NO main.
4 Birchlore
3 Quirion
1 Llanowar Elves. <- Not 100% Convinced on that one...

Anybody else is thinking about "Hoofin'" people in Washington this November?

[Alexeezay]

@Miracles Match: I've played this quite often until now, and in my experience the best cards have been Ruric Thar, Dryad Arbor, Natural Order & the BFF(visionary/symbiote). Deathrite Shaman is obviously pretty good but when he really isn't? I like how he stops SCM & can grind the game out. Just be careful that they don't go for a fast Entreat the Angels to catch you off-guard. Deathrite activations+ dropping Ruric Thar has been successful.
So you should rethink your sideboarding strategy a bit there maybe.
Hold up mana for Spell Pierce if you can when you go for NO
Discard isn't the best vs miracles. You might think the opposite, but they mostly play from the top of their deck with SDT. If they land CB, Discard is useless until Abrupt Decay.
It's fine to board out a few 1drops like Heritage/Quirion
Glimpse is insane if they don't have CB or you Decay'd it because that's a way to keep up with Terminus.
Anyway, it's really tough and you need to get lucky :D
sb question: thoughtseize always better than Duress? Also, I found that Thorn effects are quite good in the meta but then put them out again since we play 3-4 NO & other spells game 2/3, so it might counteract (also GSZ)

[Zombie]

Thorn in the board is correct. It hurts you, just as Teeg does, but it hurts the decks it's brought in against way, way more and buys you the time needed for the compensation usually.

[Dice_Box]

I have not gone against top since I stopped being mono green. Is Teeg not enough to save us?

[Zombie]

I have not gone against top since I stopped being mono green. Is Teeg not enough to save us?

Swords exists, which makes keeping Teeg onboard a bitch. If you can resolve a Safekeeper in addition to Teeg, then perhaps.

[igri_is_a_bk]

You need to shut down Sensei's Divining Top if you want to have any chance against Miracles. That's the card that sets up both Counterbalance and their namesake bombs. Krosan Grip is at the forefront of my shortlist of answers since it'll also hit Humility, unless you want to try Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker. Teeg is also a very disruptive creature here, but he is not enough alone. Most likely you still have to fire off a Glimpse to get enough bodies for the anemic beat down.

Since you aren't racing Miracles, you don't need four Heritage Druids. And since they don't play Wasteland, you don't need all four Quirions, which Alexeezy pointed out. I really want multiple Dryad Arbors in this MU since I grab them with my fetches multiple times each game after they are put on the bottom of my library with Terminus. It's an excellent way to avoid Counterbalance and get in for a point or two each turn.

Sylvan Library has been the reason I've won games in the past against Miracles. It's a permanent they have maybe one answer in their mb (usually either EE or D. Sphere) and life is a very expendable resource in this MU.

[Dice_Box]

I like the look of Sylvan Library and have bought some. I am going to try them out. It might be the tec I need against some of the decks that bug me locally.

I do not think Safekeeper is really worth playing. Losing a land is a dam steep price for his effects.

[amppyou]

@amppyou

Thx for the props, pal. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself and the deck and that's all I would care for. There's sure no reason to jab anyone in that case ;)

Your welcome. I was just going through the older posts yesterday, and I believe it was you, but someone was telling another player on here how it must be so great to play vs. opponents who don’t know what they’re doing. In my case, it was!

@amppyou
You probably mean Absolute Law, not Rule of Law? ...

Siding out Glimpses vs. Death & Taxes is wrong I think - you become pretty prone to Mindcensor just shutting down all your broken things.

As far as Miracles goes, that matchup is just bad...

Absolute Law is correct. That was a memory mistake. Thanks for the brain fart assist! I like your logic regarding Glimpse fighting Mindcensor. I’ll try a different configuration in the future and see how it works. As far as Miracles- yeah, what a whore of a deck for us.

I'm putting a lot of my time to try to find the most optimal configuration for an unknown meta. Anything can happen at a GP.

Pretty sure I'll stick to 18 lands.
1 Dryad Arbor.
4 NO main.
4 Birchlore
3 Quirion
1 Llanowar Elves. <- Not 100% Convinced on that one...

I’m a huge fan of the 4 Birchlore / 3 Quirion split. Is your Llanowar Elves coming in the flex spot? I felt that Scavenging Ooze provided me with peace of mind in the main.

@Miracles Match: I've played this quite often until now, and in my experience the best cards have been Ruric Thar, Dryad Arbor, Natural Order & the BFF(visionary/symbiote). Deathrite Shaman is obviously pretty good but when he really isn't?

Those are the exact cards that allowed me to grind and keep up with my miracles opponent in game 3, minus Ruric. I feel like the happenstance Karakas just makes the Ruric Thar plan laughable. In yesterday’s match, miracles had Karakas 3/5 games I played vs. it.

I definitely appreciate all the insights into the matchup, Alexeezay. I def know to hold up mana for pierce, but the game was inching towards inevitability for the miracles player and I made the incorrect assessment to go for it. Once again, no matter the situation, it seems like miracles always has us covered. Your advice on keeping glimpse in and siding out creatures seems self-defeating to me, though. If others care to chime in, that would be great, as I'm no expert.

You need to shut down Sensei's Divining Top if you want to have any chance against Miracles. That's the card that sets up both Counterbalance and their namesake bombs. Krosan Grip is at the forefront of my shortlist of answers since it'll also hit Humility, unless you want to try Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker.

I think Krosan Grip would have tilted game 3 in my favor. He was definitely using his SDT to no end to avoid drawing dead, finding fetches as necessary, and rigging miracles vs. me. I could imagine being tempted to concede 2 SB slots for it, but they always have multiples in my experience. Needle would be great if it didn't cost 1 in this situation.

Since you aren't racing Miracles, you don't need four Heritage Druids. And since they don't play Wasteland, you don't need all four Quirions, which Alexeezy pointed out. I really want multiple Dryad Arbors in this MU since I grab them with my fetches multiple times each game after they are put on the bottom of my library with Terminus. It's an excellent way to avoid Counterbalance and get in for a point or two each turn.

I only run 3 Quirion to begin with, and I can’t remember if I sided all or two of them out. Once I got the DRS up against him in the grindy game 3, I wondered afterward if Quirion could have helped me squeeze extra activations in. All game I was wishing I’d had another Dryad Arbor. I did effectively leave fetches up twice just to grab it and continue swinging in for 1 damage. I’m not sold on bringing the extra in to increase NO efficiency, but against miracles I def wish I’d had the option.

Sylvan Library has been the reason I've won games in the past against Miracles. It's a permanent they have maybe one answer in their mb (usually either EE or D. Sphere) and life is a very expendable resource in this MU.

Sylvan Library is a good call. I’m going to have to give it a test.

To Zombie, Alexeezay, & igri_is_a_bk, Thank you so much for taking the time to discuss Miracles a little bit. Here’s what I’ve gathered as far as SBing against miracles- 1. Krosan Grip might be overkill, but it’s important to handle top, as it gives them premium card selection. 2. sylvan library can get us out of jams that glimpse has a harder time doing in this MU. 3. Have a spare Dryad Arbor in the 75.

Would anyone care to discuss Concordant Crossroads? I know that if I’d had it vs. the miracles player, I would have beat him handily. A resolved concordant means we don’t have to slow grind against them, as our elves will start chipping away immediately. It follows the logic of having dryad arbors to fetch after they terminus- be ready to get 1 more point of damage in. I’m not sure how many entreat the angels they play though, as crossroads could have the reverse effect of allowing THEM to alpha strike US. Just a thought, though.

[Zombie]

You yourself said it - happenstance Karakas. We have nine or so Rurics in our deck. They have one Karakas, usually, plus dig. Ruric gives them a total of three spells and/or turns to do something before they just die, unless they have Moat which means the limit is three spells only. Still, pretty good since the deck is not Dredge.

KGrip for killing Top is paramount - Miracles = Top. Without a top the deck just shits on itself half the time.

[amppyou]

@zombie. Yeah, that's if we push the NO through their initial hate, though. Game 2 there was def an opening, and Crater sealed it for me. I still felt like I was lucky resolving it. Maybe a line of play of + 4 discard, 4 NO, rush Ruric Thar could work. They still have solid outs in jace, terminus, StP, and Karakas though.

I think it's unrealistic to say you'll be GSZing for 6 in this matchup. Overextending is tough cookies. In short, I don't think we have 9 Ruric Thars. I think he presents a game plan that can beat miracles if left unmolested. I feel like progenitus just does it better.

I def wouldn't side Ruric in vs. control after my experiences yesterday.

[MD.Ghost]

It is? I still have the impression that there's no real consense about:

1) Llanowar vs. Birchlores
2) 3 or 4 Quirion
3) 3 or 4 NO
4) 18 or 19 lands
5) 1 or 2 Arbor

Just that I and others successfully test a certain configuration, doesn't mean anything

1) I think, that sometimes Llanowar is a solid drop in the early turns, but after some testing i struggled in a match against TES. Llanowar and some other elves on board but i find no way to get black mana (2 Therapies in Hand...) so i lost. So i removed Llanowar from the current list and added the third bircholore ranger.

2) I still play four, because he es very flexible. He helps after sweeper (which usually also reduce our mana ressources), Untap is also usefull to get maximum number of attackers for Hoof-Smash. Against Wasteland-Decks, i really like the ability to save lands.

3) I included the playset in my current maindeck and it works quite good. Sadly, i switched Ooze from main to side. I play 1 Craterhoof and 1 Ruric (Main) and 1 Progenitus (Side), but i allways test other winconditions in these few Slots (which means Maindeck: "4th NO or something else " and/or Side: "4th NO + Progenitus or something else")
+
4) 4 Cradle, 1 Arbor, 7 Fetches, 2 Bayou, 1 Savannah, 1 Taiga, 2 Forest = 18 total, works good for me

5) 1 Arbor is most of the time enough, in some cases i wish i have the access to the 2nd, but i don´t want to hamper my starting hands or kick another creature

Tournament:
Yesterday i placed 9th (46 players, 6 rounds) with 12 points (5 guys with 13 above me -.-)

Round 1 vs RUG 2:1 (Ruric won Game 1)
Round 2 vs D&T 2:1 (one game he sworded my 1st Turn Deathrite and Rishadan Port vs 1 Land was GG)
Round 3 vs UW Miracle 2:1 (3rd Decay and my 2 ORings works good, after he sworded g.teeg)
Round 4 vs Dredge 1:2 (he kicked me with two turn 1 kills, one after he mulliganed to 5 cards...)
Round 5 vs BUG Team America 0:2 (some tight games!, but his sylvan library guarantee some nasty draws/topdecks...)
Round 6 vs Dark Maverick 2:1 (E.Plague + E.Cannonist vs NO :)

Tested Main: 4th NO (over Ooze), 3rd Bircholore (over 1 Llanowar), 1 Viridian Shaman (over 1 Q.Pridemage) / Side: 3rd Abrupt Decay (over 2nd Ooze), 1 Harmonic Sliver (V.Shaman Slot), besides my unlucky dredge matchup, it works well enough.

[Lemnear]

I think, that sometimes Llanowar is a solid drop in the early turns, but after some testing i struggled in a match against TES. Llanowar and some other elves on board but i find no way to get black mana (2 Therapies in Hand...) so i lost. So i removed Llanowar from the current list and added the third bircholore ranger.

That's no news to me, but one of the Main Features why I'd push Birchlore as a 4-off aside the insane turn 2 Glimpse-Combos and creating multiple Black mana for machine-gun-DRS. Enjoy your stay in the Birchlore-Hotel ;)

Your welcome. I was just going through the older posts yesterday, and I believe it was you, but someone was telling another player on here how it must be so great to play vs. opponents who don’t know what they’re doing. In my case, it was!

The difference is, that you realized that your playskill, the decklist and your opponents mistakes played together to grant you those victories.

[uncletiggy]

What are everyones thoughts on rakking canopy to fight off angel tokens does some splash damage vs delvers flicker wisps and mind censors. I'm thinking three decays and a canopy for this matchup plus some amount of discard. I agree the matchup is horrendous as its one of the primary decks I test against that and reanimator

[Zombie]

Mindcensor fucks us over without ever having to swing. The Angel tokens aren't the problem, it's the rest of their deck. Specifically Terminus and CB-Top being murder.

[uncletiggy]

I understand sweepers and cb are the issues with miracles but raking canopy shuts off thier win condition no matter how many angels they have they'll all take four qhen they swing so will cliqie or connolade if they are playing it for me beating miracles has alway come between 2-4 damage at a time and staying out from under a cb lock with decay

[amppyou]

I understand sweepers and cb are the issues with miracles but raking canopy shuts off thier win condition no matter how many angels they have they'll all take four qhen they swing so will cliqie or connolade if they are playing it for me beating miracles has alway come between 2-4 damage at a time and staying out from under a cb lock with decay

If you're looking for a 1GG enchantment to shore up the matchup, I think you should look at City of Solitude before you look at Raking Canopy. Although it can nonbo with a machine gun strategy and makes the BFF combo slightly less efficient, it hoses miracles much more than our own synergies.

[uncletiggy]

Had not thought about city could have applictation in several other matchups no time to test tho

[Dice_Box]

Played Elves again tonight. Dam I love them.

Ok not going to do a full write up but I went 3-1 with the loss as close as close can be. Won against Affinity, Goblins and Aluren. Lost to Shardless BUG. MVP sideboard card was Therapy and therapies in a glimpse combo are just evil. You just empty their hands and even if you happen to fizzle, they are out of threats and you have the win more or less in the bag for the next turn.

I do not miss Llanowar, I like Quiron as a 3 of, I want to test 4 though. The FNM Visionary looks so sick, get it. Lastly 4 Cradles was gold for me. I had my hand Seized, lost Cradle and then Teeg. I was left with only one Hoof in my hand. Top a Cradle, tap the one in play, play the second, win. Rocks.

Lastly. It is funny to watch someone who does not know this deck try and count out loud how much mana you have. The guy thought I had 7, I could make 11. Took a DRS target off me and was shocked when I just bounced a Forest and replayed it untapping Dryad. It is interesting seeing the way people think this deck works. Not just Glimpse of which I did have one guy ask me on, but the fact that the mana math is beyond some people who are looking at us play. Everyone is so use to combat math that the moment you change the situation it spins them out a bit.

[Kayradis]

In the RUG matchup, I end up going for NO on T2 so often with Dryad/Forest/Quirion and sometime Symbiote to add some insanity.
Thar is slowly making it to a permanent MD slot. I do agree, he's not as good as Hoof, but damn, he just stops so many decks right there!

My Llanowar elves is still my flex slot. If sylvan safekeeper was an elf he would take that spot in a heartbeat, but unfortunately, he's not. I'm still digging to find a good 1CMC elf or a toolbox creature to take that slot.

Ideas?

[Dice_Box]

I have given some thought to adding in some kind of toolbox but I hit a brick wall each time. The deck simply does not have the space and the elves that could fill out a tool box are not as useful as said tool box cards in other decks.

Think about it, to keep our combo going the tools need to be:
A) Elves
B) Cheap
C) Have a strong enough draw to cut something else and add them.

Now I can list some cards I like, but they almost never fill all three slots. Gaea's Herald first came to mind, but all it saves is Hoof really. Everything else you want to use to bate counters with and I would rather lose to a counter a Nettle or a Heritage than a NO. To that thinking I dropped that idea.

The other that I still debate is Eladamri. I think he could add something and with the rise of burn he forces someone to deal with him first and then your other Elves. In a deck like Delver they often lack the critical mass of burn to do that, Jace is forced to bounce him. All in all he offers something. But what he gives he takes away. Shroud cuts off tricks with Symbiote and that can really hurt. That said each time I think about him I really want to draft him into my army for a while.