All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

We can still question, how Survival + LED + Vengevine is better than LED + Infernal + Ad Nauseam, but the strenght lies still in the repetitive aspekt and the toolbox it opens

[GreekAsTheGods]

The top? Foreal? Dreidelstorm is the card most players would like to see gone? Jace, SFM, LED, DRS, Dark Confidant are all still legal and the top is seen as most banworthy?

Jace is seen as top tier even in Vintage. LED is one of the few remaining obviously broken manabombs. Dark Confidant lets Suicide Black decks pretty much pay 1 or 2 life every turn for a second Draw Phase, giving them further resource advantage over opponents. The printing of SFM has been labeled as a mistake even by R&D and DRS is the most efficient 1 drop creature ever printed ESPECIALLY in today's metagame where any of his abilities would be considered top tier if all they did was remove the targetted card and nothing else. And Dreidelstorm is the "top" voted banworthy card. (cwutididthar)

[Dice_Box]

Man forget the pool. It's been closed a long time. The fact the Lackey is on it is proof it a outdated as hell.

[Gheizen64]

Man forget the pool. It's been closed a long time. The fact the Lackey is on it is proof it a outdated as hell.

He's a troll dude ignore, did you read what the fuck did you answer to? Did you see his other post?

[apple713]

We can still question, how Survival + LED + Vengevine is better than LED + Infernal + Ad Nauseam, but the strenght lies still in the repetitive aspekt and the toolbox it opens

not sure that survival + led + vengevine works. You cant' get the mana from LED unles you have discarded your hand. If you discard your hand you wont be able to search via survival....So if what your saying is that you have to have 3x vengevine, 2 basking rootwalla, and an led in hand.... thats a 6 card combo.....why the hell are we even talking about a 6x card combo....

Survival's power came from its graveyard recursion. if you stop the graveyard you can stop most of the deck. Vengevines wont be coming back. if this is your argument then we need to ban the entire dredge strategy... If you choose to say that its powerful tutor, your mistaken. its a card for card exchange that requires mana. Its not like its a GSZ every turn.

Survival was banned before decks could adapt to it, which is why it was banned. Because the people in the format were too stupid to SB for it WOTC decided to make that decision for them. Green deserves a card like this. Its a hallmark of the color. Imagine if they banned any of the following

brainstorm
Dark ritual - thoughtseize
Lightning bolt
Swords

[GreekAsTheGods]

He's a troll dude ignore, did you read what the fuck did you answer to? Did you see his other post?

In what way am I a troll? My other post was sarcastic but it made a valid point. I don't see anything trolly about my post in this thread either.

EDIT: In fact by trying to invalidate my post by labeling me as a troll you're more of a troll than I am. You're avoiding healthy productive conversation by labeling things you disagree with as "trolling" instead of allowing other posters to voice their opinions.... which I believe they're entitled to do on a forum. Again, I don't see anything about what I posted that I'd considered trolly.

[Megadeus]

not sure that survival + led + vengevine works. You cant' get the mana from LED unles you have discarded your hand. If you discard your hand you wont be able to search via survival....So if what your saying is that you have to have 3x vengevine, 2 basking rootwalla, and an led in hand.... thats a 6 card combo.....why the hell are we even talking about a 6x card combo....

Survival's power came from its graveyard recursion. if you stop the graveyard you can stop most of the deck. Vengevines wont be coming back. if this is your argument then we need to ban the entire dredge strategy... If you choose to say that its powerful tutor, your mistaken. its a card for card exchange that requires mana. Its not like its a GSZ every turn.

Survival was banned before decks could adapt to it, which is why it was banned. Because the people in the format were too stupid to SB for it WOTC decided to make that decision for them. Green deserves a card like this. Its a hallmark of the color. Imagine if they banned any of the following

brainstorm
Dark ritual - thoughtseize
Lightning bolt
Swords

You activate SOTF discarding vengevine (or whatever) and in response crack LED then use the green mana to chain a ton of discard VVine to find more VVine into a couple of madness rootwallas

[apple713]

You activate SOTF discarding vengevine (or whatever) and in response crack LED then use the green mana to chain a ton of discard VVine to find more VVine into a couple of madness rootwallas

so i guess his would require 3 mana on t2? not unreasonable, but it still seems like having the rootwallas/ vengevines in hand along with survival and the ability to have 3 mana on t2 is asking ALOT. Lots of decks have GODLY hands like that but because of their extremly low chance of happening its hardly a problem.

my modern deck has a better T2 than that.
T1 Faithless looting -> bin a griselbrand
T2 Goryo's vengence -> draw 14, Fury of the horde till they are dead... This also only requires 2 cards instead of 5 or whatever.

I guess i should expect the ban hammer on this soon too huh?

[Darkenslight]

You activate SOTF discarding vengevine (or whatever) and in response crack LED then use the green mana to chain a ton of discard VVine to find more VVine into a couple of madness rootwallas

Yup, the old "In Response, LED, GG"

[GreekAsTheGods]

So when does R&D update B/R list next? OP said next week in August of 2009. Is it still late August? If it is that means it's coming up again. What would the poll look like if it was remade for this particular year?

[Megadeus]

So when does R&D update B/R list next? OP said next week in August of 2009. Is it still late August? If it is that means it's coming up again. What would the poll look like if it was remade for this particular year?

B/R I'd updated at every set release so so the announcement will come around the release of Theros. I imagine the list would be now: Show and Tell, Jace, LED, Brainstorm, death rite, SDT, Griselbrand, stuff like that. Basically a card or two from most major tier one archetypes

[GreekAsTheGods]

B/R I'd updated at every set release so so the announcement will come around the release of Theros. I imagine the list would be now: Show and Tell, Jace, LED, Brainstorm, death rite, SDT, Griselbrand, stuff like that. Basically a card or two from most major tier one archetypes

Okay, that makes sense. That list actually closely resembles the cards I felt were banworthy at the moment as well. How do players feel about SFM and Dark Confidant at the moment? I feel like both of those cards are extremely strong as standalone cards but are a bit over the top due to the amount of support they have from other cards and the general deck archetype they fit into. Dark Confidant is functionally 1 to 2 life for a second draw phase in most Suicidie black decks (since suicide black is usually mostly 1 or 2 CMC control cards) and SFM ... kind of the same thing IMO. Too many cards that, by association, make her a tad over the top... similar to how Tinker wouldn't be broken if there weren't artifacts that were broken when tutored and mana cheated into play.

[apple713]

Okay, that makes sense. That list actually closely resembles the cards I felt were banworthy at the moment as well. How do players feel about SFM and Dark Confidant at the moment? I feel like both of those cards are extremely strong as standalone cards but are a bit over the top due to the amount of support they have from other cards and the general deck archetype they fit into. Dark Confidant is functionally 1 to 2 life for a second draw phase in most Suicidie black decks (since suicide black is usually mostly 1 or 2 CMC control cards) and SFM ... kind of the same thing IMO. Too many cards that, by association, make her a tad over the top... similar to how Tinker wouldn't be broken if there weren't artifacts that were broken when tutored and mana cheated into play.

its really hard to justify banning a creature, unless it breaks the format in half (those playing it and those not playing it). See hermit druid as an example. I think he and goblin recruiter are the only ones on the list.

SFM and Dark confidant are fair creatures. SFM probably shouldnt be banned in modern. Theres enough removal to keep it in check. creatures are easily killed and unless they change the game state immediatly its unlikly they will be banned.

[GreekAsTheGods]

its really hard to justify banning a creature, unless it breaks the format in half (those playing it and those not playing it). See hermit druid as an example. I think he and goblin recruiter are the only ones on the list.

SFM and Dark confidant are fair creatures. SFM probably shouldnt be banned in modern. Theres enough removal to keep it in check. creatures are easily killed and unless they change the game state immediatly its unlikly they will be banned.

Yeah, creatures are easily dealt with and few really break the format. But there are some that I feel are way too far above the curve in comparison to to other creatures. I think SFM, even if she only survives long enough to tutor and cheat a batterskull into play, is an example of a creature that may not break the format but is overly efficient to an extent where even if the actual intent isn't to have it banned it should at least be noted to prevent further power creep. Dark Confidant and DRS are other offenders in this respect.

It's not that they break the format necessarily so much as they warp the curve.

DRS for instance. If he was a 2CMC B/G B/G for example and was on a 0/1 body with the same abilities he'd probably still he absolute top tier and Jund would still probably run 4 per deck. The fact he's a 1 drop on a 1/2 frame with 3 abilities that are all amazing in a metagame like the current one seems straight up unreasonable. Does it break format? Definitely not. Does it warp the curve and drastically overshadow similar CMC utility creatures? IMO it does.

[apple713]

Yeah, creatures are easily dealt with and few really break the format. But there are some that I feel are way too far above the curve in comparison to to other creatures. I think SFM, even if she only survives long enough to tutor and cheat a batterskull into play, is an example of a creature that may not break the format but is overly efficient to an extent where even if the actual intent isn't to have it banned it should at least be noted to prevent further power creep. Dark Confidant and DRS are other offenders in this respect.

It's not that they break the format necessarily so much as they warp the curve.

DRS for instance. If he was a 2CMC B/G B/G for example and was on a 0/1 body with the same abilities he'd probably still he absolute top tier and Jund would still probably run 4 per deck. The fact he's a 1 drop on a 1/2 frame with 3 abilities that are all amazing in a metagame like the current one seems straight up unreasonable. Does it break format? Definitely not. Does it warp the curve and drastically overshadow similar CMC utility creatures? IMO it does.

no DRS would not be played if its CMC was 2. I thik it would be more fair if it was either green or black and the mana was not hybrid. Also you could make him a 0/1 and he'd still be played if he costed 1 mana.

Dark confidant will never get banned. SFM is a 1/2 with a good ability, but theres so many other cards that match its awesomeness and card advantage it gets lost in the shuffle of legacy. Its not OP because its on par with the other cards in the format.

take the cards you listed as example. Then add a few, Thalia, Snapcaster mage, tarmogofy

[GreekAsTheGods]

its really hard to justify banning a creature, unless it breaks the format in half (those playing it and those not playing it). See hermit druid as an example. I think he and goblin recruiter are the only ones on the list.

SFM and Dark confidant are fair creatures. SFM probably shouldnt be banned in modern. Theres enough removal to keep it in check. creatures are easily killed and unless they change the game state immediatly its unlikly they will be banned.

no DRS would not be played if its CMC was 2. I thik it would be more fair if it was either green or black and the mana was not hybrid. Also you could make him a 0/1 and he'd still be played if he costed 1 mana.

Dark confidant will never get banned. SFM is a 1/2 with a good ability, but theres so many other cards that match its awesomeness and card advantage it gets lost in the shuffle of legacy. Its not OP because its on par with the other cards in the format.

take the cards you listed as example. Then add a few, Thalia, Snapcaster mage, tarmogofy

Patrick Chapin had an article about Snapcaster being straight up too strong as well. Tarmogoyf is ridiculous but has no utility and its power is tied entirely to the graveyard which is the focus of like 75% of every side deck currently, DRS even shxts on it.

I'm not aware of too many other single cards that do what SFM does to be honest. Tinker is banned. Transmute artifact requires you to pay for the mana difference as well as sac'ing an artifact so although it tutors it doesn't mana cheat and it does require additional cards. And neither of those cards are permanents that draw removal either.

DRS I think would still see use as 2CMC. If I was shown the card for the first time and the mana cost was hidden and I was told to guess the mana cost in B/G I'd guess 2CMC or higher. All 3 of those abilities? 1/2? CMC that can be paid with either of 2 types of mana? Easily top tier even at 2CMC. For all 3 of those abilities on one permanent it could probably be higher and still see play to be perfectly honest. If it was 3CMC all B/G with all 3 abilities and was 2/2 and I'd never known a version that was a one drop I can honestly say I'd run 4 still.

EDIT: Thalia I actually don't see as a problem creature to be honest. I think she's pretty good but balanced. The decks she hurts the most are decks that are either creature-less or nearly creature-less and those are the decks that are usually loaded to the teeth with answers to her. Her affect doesn't specifically affect her opponent as well. She's right where the curve should be IMO.

[L-Luck]

Deathrite Shaman would be straight up unplayable for one more mana, saying anything else is delusional. If you untap with your two drop, it better draws an extra card, becomes a vigilant 4/4 lifelinker or puts the opponent on a 3 turn clock.

[apple713]

Patrick Chapin had an article about Snapcaster being straight up too strong as well. Tarmogoyf is ridiculous but has no utility and its power is tied entirely to the graveyard which is the focus of like 75% of every side deck currently, DRS even shxts on it.

I'm not aware of too many other single cards that do what SFM does to be honest. Tinker is banned. Transmute artifact requires you to pay for the mana difference as well as sac'ing an artifact so although it tutors it doesn't mana cheat and it does require additional cards. And neither of those cards are permanents that draw removal either.

DRS I think would still see use as 2CMC. If I was shown the card for the first time and the mana cost was hidden and I was told to guess the mana cost in B/G I'd guess 2CMC or higher. All 3 of those abilities? 1/2? CMC that can be paid with either of 2 types of mana? Easily top tier even at 2CMC. For all 3 of those abilities on one permanent it could probably be higher and still see play to be perfectly honest. If it was 3CMC all B/G with all 3 abilities and was 2/2 and I'd never known a version that was a one drop I can honestly say I'd run 4 still.

its not even possible to compare SFM to tinker. I mean SFM is good dont get me wrong but its not cheating blightsteel colosus into play or anything like that. its comparable to a steelshapers gift and a 1/2 creature. The added ability doesnt break the card it really only has 1 interaction and its because of a living artifact which probably wont see print again. Its also slow and mana intensive. If SFM dies, your now just hold a useless card for 3 turns at least.

Snap isnt broken but man is he annoying. Hes perfectly fine for standard but his overpoweredness comes from the 20 years of efficient spells being printed in legacy.

Creatures shuold so something awesome. When they are more or less the lifeblood of the game. When you have degenerate S&T combos clogging up the format and winning t2-3 a SFM pales in comparison.

[GreekAsTheGods]

its not even possible to compare SFM to tinker. I mean SFM is good dont get me wrong but its not cheating blightsteel colosus into play or anything like that. its comparable to a steelshapers gift and a 1/2 creature. The added ability doesnt break the card it really only has 1 interaction and its because of a living artifact which probably wont see print again. Its also slow and mana intensive. If SFM dies, your now just hold a useless card for 3 turns at least.

Snap isnt broken but man is he annoying. Hes perfectly fine for standard but his overpoweredness comes from the 20 years of efficient spells being printed in legacy.

Creatures shuold so something awesome. When they are more or less the lifeblood of the game. When you have degenerate S&T combos clogging up the format and winning t2-3 a SFM pales in comparison.

Steelshaper's gift is only a tutor affect, it doesn't cheat the card into play. IMO the cheating into play part is what makes the card banworthy, not just because of the OP interaction with batterskull but because it also limits all other Equipments that are ever released as well.

I respect that you disagree on it, but I really do feel that no card should be able to tutor and mana cheat and be a permanent that poses a threat and draws removal all in one. To me that's too much in one card, and while the end result may be comparible to what other cards in the format do, and by that reasoning it may not be game breaking, I do think that it's warping the curve in an extremely unhealthy way. DRS too. I agree it isn't breaking the format but it's definitely changed peoples' perceptions on what the curve for a rare creature should be.

I agree creatures should do things. I just think that there's a significant power creep going on and it may be a bit over the top. Magus of the Bazaar is one of my favorite creatures and it's a Bazaar of Baghdad on a stick. The creature itself is a 2 CMC 0/1 creature. I think the card is amazing and is right on the curve for a utility creature. I don't think SFM and DRS are on the same level.... I put them far above.

[Zombie]

Magus is unplayable. Has been for most of it's life in most formats even before Lorwyn happened. Just saying.