[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[door]

I haven't played GW Zenith since a long time. I've played Vial Maverick for a while before switching straight to Sunyveil's GWb Maverick list because I saw the advantages the splash has to offer. And I trust Sunyveil's judgement on that.

Team America is pretty much non-existent in the MODO meta, but there's lots of BUG Shardless and a very occasional Jund deck. The splash certainly helps, mainly due to DRS in those match-ups, although I wouldn't go as far as saying that it improves match-up X up to Y%.

But I fail to see how that's relevant in the discussion about Punishing Dark Maverick. It's my little pet project I'm working on as a sideline since I want to get the manabase right before dropping money on it.

Well, previously you were writing a lot about the GWb build and I'm asking you before you went too far into the 4-color depths =) The reason behind my question is based on my experience with the mentioned vial build, though I thought, it's easier to compare zenith builds. But as far as you played the vial build it's even better for me. The only matches that bother me, while playing with vials, are jund and Team America (more than existant in our meta). And now I need to make a choice, whether I tune my sideboard or try completely different build (GWb). Unfortunately I don't have enough time to comprehensively test both.

But since you say black doesn't make dramatical changes in these m/ups, I think, I'm closer to sticking to vials and adding some lieges, obstinate baloths or loxodon smiters to my sb.

Thanks anyway and good luck with punishing fires =)

[AreYouSerious???]

What? Thalia absolutely ruins Combo if she hits the board against them. If the combo decks are hurting you bad, add hate to your SB like Ethersworn Canonist or Mindbreak Traps (assuming your meta is more storm focused). If you're worried about reanimator style decks, try Bojuka Bog (tutorable by KOTR!), Surgical Extraction, and/or Rest In Peace (yes it makes KOTR weaker but it hurts Reanimator, RUG Delver, opposing KOTRs, etc.). The bottom line, though, is that you should be playing Thalia. I'd go down the Sword, or at least move it to the SB (personally I'd rather have one Batterskull and a Jitte only in main), because it's not going to do as well as the Jittes and it's easily one of the weaker swords you could be playing, maybe an Elspeth and Sylvan Library (both of which are usually 1-of's), and maybe one Mindcensor.

You should also really fix your land base. Horizon Canopy is good, but at a 3-of it'll kill you more than it'll save you, and I'll echo lolTemple Garden. Hell I'd just replace the Shocks for Cavern of Souls (calling Human on a Cavern in Maverick is the best thing ever when you have Hierarch, Mom, Thalia, and KOTR), get a Karakas (yeah the Thalia block trick is nice, but it nails target Griselbrand or Emrakul in one), and probably a Maze of Ith too, though I suppose that last one might be a little meta dependent.

Lastly, there's really never any reason you should need 3 Gaddock Teegs in your side. I'd go a max of 2, but usually you only need one since you'll either draw him or tutor him with GSZ and that should be more than enough.

Try to avoid looking at Maverick as a hard aggro deck, because it really isn't. It's a midrange deck through and through, building your board state to try manipulating it and gaining an edge on your opponent. The endgame is to beat their face in, sure, but it's something that takes longer to do than, say, Goblins or Affinity which drop their hands pretty quickly and smash their opponents, something Maverick almost never does.

But then inconsistency ensues.. I have a couple Mav buddies that have lost because they could'nt find their Elspeth or Teeg... I... I CAN'T believe I'm saying this, but Mindcensor I think CAN be taken out for...... Thalia -_- (god this sucks) .. I guess I'll be snatching her up next time I hit my local card shop.. I have to admit something here actually.. I've never actually played Maverick the deck above me is a test deck. I get my facts from meta game charts, price increases/drops, etc, and recently I've noticed some problems with the deck. I fuckin hate brainstorm builds and hope to see the card banned soon (in fact, I'm trying to build a deck completely around a massive, game-ending strategy so that MAYBE it'll be noticed for the Psuedo-Recall card that it is and finally get banned). I'm sorry for all the commotion I started on this forum; I can assure you my intentions we're good and well, I apologize for the comments to some of the experienced players as well (gotta watch out for the little guy)

[Barook]

Well, previously you were writing a lot about the GWb build and I'm asking you before you went too far into the 4-color depths =) The reason behind my question is based on my experience with the mentioned vial build, though I thought, it's easier to compare zenith builds. But as far as you played the vial build it's even better for me. The only matches that bother me, while playing with vials, are jund and Team America (more than existant in our meta). And now I need to make a choice, whether I tune my sideboard or try completely different build (GWb). Unfortunately I don't have enough time to comprehensively test both.

But since you say black doesn't make dramatical changes in these m/ups, I think, I'm closer to sticking to vials and adding some lieges, obstinate baloths or loxodon smiters to my sb.

Thanks anyway and good luck with punishing fires =)

It really depends on the meta. The MODO meta is infested with combo and it was getting frustrating since hatebears alone didn't cut it for me anymore. Omnitell was the worst in that regard. Sometimes, it's just impossible to beat combo without discard. In the last Legacy DE I played against Storm (I think it was TES) and had a pretty solid hand on the play with T1 DRS, T2 Teeg. He had Chain of Vapor and a T2 kill. Sure, quite unlucky on my side, but a discard spell for his Infernal Tutor might have stalled him enough.

The power black adds, especially in form of DRS, shouldn't be underestimated, though. But if you're confident enough with the Vial build, go for it.

As far as Jund is concerned - they can be problematic, especially if they run Punishing Fire. Hence me testing PF myself. Had a game today were a single PF killed 2 Bobs and 2 Lilianas, giving me enough time to stabilize after a massive land flood and to StP his second Goyf. Everything but Goyfs dies to PF, including Liliana - which is huge.

From what I've seen so far, the mana base might be less than an issue than it appears first, because you're either Punishing Maverick OR Dark Maverick post-board. Thus you don't need to be greedy and fetch 4 colors. Haven't had a chance to play against RUG Delver and friends were it might be relevant, though.

[Koby]

I think it should go without saying, if you're running more top-heavy threats (like Elspeth/Thrun/Sigarda) or 3-4 color variations, you should increase the land count to 23 (omitting Maze of Ith from this count). You're going to need the consistent mana for both these strategies and missing land drops will directly lead to lost games.

[Barook]

I think it should go without saying, if you're running more top-heavy threats (like Elspeth/Thrun/Sigarda) or 3-4 color variations, you should increase the land count to 23 (omitting Maze of Ith from this count). You're going to need the consistent mana for both these strategies and missing land drops will directly lead to lost games.

I'm using 23 lands (all instant mana sources, no Cradle or Maze) along with 2 BoP, 3 DRS and 4 GSZ for a potential Dryad Arbor in my 4 color build. I wouldn't go above that, though, since you have less space for business and risk being flooded. 23 lands feels already like alot, but at least there's always stuff to do with the mana.

[BlackFlameAshura]

But then inconsistency ensues.. I have a couple Mav buddies that have lost because they could'nt find their Elspeth or Teeg...

I don't think you should ever really try to rely wholly on Elspeth for your win. She can give you the push to a win that you might need sometimes, but she isn't a direct win con herself like Batterskull, KOTR, or anything equipped with a Jitte. As for Teeg, playing one of him with 4 Green Sun's Zenith should mean he's never very hard to get out if you truly need him, and you're not always going to need him. I play him as a one-of main since he can lead to blow-out wins in some matchups but in others he's nigh useless.

I... I CAN'T believe I'm saying this, but Mindcensor I think CAN be taken out for...... Thalia -_- (god this sucks) .. I guess I'll be snatching her up next time I hit my local card shop..

Please stop acting like Thalia's bad because she's far from it. The only things she hurts in this deck are minimal, especially since the deck accelerates reasonably well enough that it's not exactly unheard of to be able to hardcast a Batterskull while she's on the board, she'll halt your opponent's gameplan, AND she's a 2/1 first striker that both gets pumped by exalted triggers and gets Jitte counters before your opponent gets to deal damage to her. In addition, yeah, she can be bounced constantly via Karakas for an incredibly strong blocker. Mindcensor is good so I don't know if I'd take all of them out, but try around with some different builds. Most I've seen run just one but some run two, so I think it's, again, a bit of a meta call.

I have to admit something here actually.. I've never actually played Maverick the deck above me is a test deck. I get my facts from meta game charts, price increases/drops, etc, and recently I've noticed some problems with the deck. I fuckin hate brainstorm builds and hope to see the card banned soon (in fact, I'm trying to build a deck completely around a massive, game-ending strategy so that MAYBE it'll be noticed for the Psuedo-Recall card that it is and finally get banned). I'm sorry for all the commotion I started on this forum; I can assure you my intentions we're good and well, I apologize for the comments to some of the experienced players as well (gotta watch out for the little guy)

My only real advice here with regards to this is just don't come in acting like you've been playing the deck for awhile and then bash everyone else's opinions (who have been playing with it for awhile) when in reality you've barely touched it. You can only gain so much input and info by examining the metagame. It's an important piece, to be sure (and it's why my SB changes quite often depending on who walks into the shop I play at), but it's not going to teach you how to play the deck. You can't really "notice" problems (like you say Thalia is a problem for the deck) until you've actually played it for awhile. Maverick's a lot of fun once you've got the feel for the deck, so take some of our advice to heart as you build your deck. Try some variants while you're at it like Vial Maverick or Dark Maverick (which has been pretty popular lately).

[AreYouSerious???]

I don't think you should ever really try to rely wholly on Elspeth for your win. She can give you the push to a win that you might need sometimes, but she isn't a direct win con herself like Batterskull, KOTR, or anything equipped with a Jitte. As for Teeg, playing one of him with 4 Green Sun's Zenith should mean he's never very hard to get out if you truly need him, and you're not always going to need him. I play him as a one-of main since he can lead to blow-out wins in some matchups but in others he's nigh useless.



Please stop acting like Thalia's bad because she's far from it. The only things she hurts in this deck are minimal, especially since the deck accelerates reasonably well enough that it's not exactly unheard of to be able to hardcast a Batterskull while she's on the board, she'll halt your opponent's gameplan, AND she's a 2/1 first striker that both gets pumped by exalted triggers and gets Jitte counters before your opponent gets to deal damage to her. In addition, yeah, she can be bounced constantly via Karakas for an incredibly strong blocker. Mindcensor is good so I don't know if I'd take all of them out, but try around with some different builds. Most I've seen run just one but some run two, so I think it's, again, a bit of a meta call.



My only real advice here with regards to this is just don't come in acting like you've been playing the deck for awhile and then bash everyone else's opinions (who have been playing with it for awhile) when in reality you've barely touched it. You can only gain so much input and info by examining the metagame. It's an important piece, to be sure (and it's why my SB changes quite often depending on who walks into the shop I play at), but it's not going to teach you how to play the deck. You can't really "notice" problems (like you say Thalia is a problem for the deck) until you've actually played it for awhile. Maverick's a lot of fun once you've got the feel for the deck, so take some of our advice to heart as you build your deck. Try some variants while you're at it like Vial Maverick or Dark Maverick (which has been pretty popular lately).

Thank you ^_^ I could not have asked for a more pleasant post! I have reversed my opinions on Thalia and am looking forward to what she is going to do in the future meta game. Hope I didn't bother much of you!

[test1985]

But then inconsistency ensues.. I have a couple Mav buddies that have lost because they could'nt find their Elspeth or Teeg... I... I CAN'T believe I'm saying this, but Mindcensor I think CAN be taken out for...... Thalia -_- (god this sucks) .. I guess I'll be snatching her up next time I hit my local card shop.. I have to admit something here actually.. I've never actually played Maverick the deck above me is a test deck. I get my facts from meta game charts, price increases/drops, etc, and recently I've noticed some problems with the deck. I fuckin hate brainstorm builds and hope to see the card banned soon (in fact, I'm trying to build a deck completely around a massive, game-ending strategy so that MAYBE it'll be noticed for the Psuedo-Recall card that it is and finally get banned). I'm sorry for all the commotion I started on this forum; I can assure you my intentions we're good and well, I apologize for the comments to some of the experienced players as well (gotta watch out for the little guy)

Let's break this down..

Your mav friends saying they didn't find teeg or elspeth meant that they're probably playing against miracles. Yes, it WAS a really bad MU. Counter-top-terminus singlehandedly wiped maverick out from the meta game for a while. Back then, there were no concept of "magic numbers" (cmc that cb can hardly reach) and over-commitment on the board was common. Abrupt decay is the easiest way out, hence the appearance of BGx decks. Now, miracles vs mav is 55-45 mb and 50-50 sb (w/ the correct sb, of course). Also, by mav, i meant any build (gw, pMav, dMav, vMav). Each has its own advantages and disadvantages.

Mindcensor can be replaced -- as long as you have a better hate. I replaced it with mirran crusaders in my GW build mainly because BGx decks are packing golgari charms. In my pMav build, thalia is in my sb. It all depends on your meta.

My advise, try playing maverick or play against it before you invest. Decks that aren't in the meta doesn't mean they're weak. It just means they're not popular right now. All the better, this would mean other players wouldn't be packing hate against us. Good luck.

EDIT: typo

[Barook]

Has anybody tried out Barbarian Ring/Cabal Pit in the respective builds as a KotR target?

If so, how did it go? Did you run Life from the Loam to support it?

[diakocjay]

Hi Team,

I was wondering what would be the best sideboard to use against Omnitell, hive mind or Omni-halls deck? I am currently trying the deck list of Jack Wang (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5181&d=229874).

[Barook]

Hi Team,

I was wondering what would be the best sideboard to use against Omnitell, hive mind or Omni-halls deck? I am currently trying the deck list of Jack Wang (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5181&d=229874).

From my experience so far, the match-up is very bad (at least Omnitell, no idea what Omnihalls is supposed to be since Omnitell runs both). The only thing that actually worked for me is getting lucky, putting an O-Ring into play and praying they don't have an instant speed answer.

Discard can be helpful, but between Brainstorm and Leyline of Sanctity, it isn't too stellar, either.

Probably the most upsetting thing is how they simply don't care about your hatebears - especially since you can't protect them thanks to Wipe Away.

[Fatal]

Maybe its quite insane but if you looking for best OmniTell hate use:
Trinisphere
Oblivion Ring
Any thalia/Gaddock in numbers
Thorn of Ametyst - best multiple
Red Elemental Blast
Ethersworn Canonist
Discard
Krosan Grips

Not tested too many games but Trinisphere looks quite promising, similar to Canonist but stops from countering answer to S&Ted Omni in your turn.

Best had which they can't resist - Oring on hand and Trini in hand, from S&T play Trini, then Oring in your turn or GSZ for pridemage, or reb / any other.. Same is with Canonist but they can FoW your answer.

[Megadeus]

Hatebears are great vs Omnitell and any combo of the two is very difficult for them to beat.

[AlbyLegacy]

I'm gonna play test this list and see how it does// Deck: modern maverick (60)

// Lands 23
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures 26
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Mother of Runes
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

// Spells 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Æther Vial


I know it look different then the typical maverick list but think of all the crazy interactions you get with fauna shaman + vial and all the different creatures.

[Barook]

I'm going to get my hands on the missing parts of the mana base to test Punishing Dark Maverick in the second Legacy DE later. The build I'm using is probably close to Sunyveil's - which is coincidentally pretty close to Fatal's list MD-wise.


@AlbyLegacy: I know DRS is huge right now, but why not a single copy of Squee to generate card advantage with every turn?

Other stuff to think about:

- 1 SFM to tutor for Jitte

- maybe 1 Mangara as extra removal and to establish the Karakas combo?

- if you run Vial, Weathered Wayfarer might be of interested for you which belongs to the core of Vial Maverick

- a few copies of GSZ to find your Fauna Shamans and increase the consistency of your green creatures probably doesn't hurt as well

[AlbyLegacy]

I'm going to get my hands on the missing parts of the mana base to test Punishing Dark Maverick in the second Legacy DE later. The build I'm using is probably close to Sunyveil's - which is coincidentally pretty close to Fatal's list MD-wise.


@AlbyLegacy: I know DRS is huge right now, but why not a single copy of Squee to generate card advantage with every turn?

Other stuff to think about:

- 1 SFM to tutor for Jitte

- maybe 1 Mangara as extra removal and to establish the Karakas combo?

- if you run Vial, Weathered Wayfarer might be of interested for you which belongs to the core of Vial Maverick

- a few copies of GSZ to find your Fauna Shamans and increase the consistency of your green creatures probably doesn't hurt as well

Thanks. These are all good cards to consider. I have some testing to do.

[andrebonotto]

(...)
I would definitely run SoFaF in the MD. It's already damn good in the normal Maverick variants and it can be used to power up the Grove/PF engine to absolutely decimate their board. Whether or not to run a third SFM is debateable since space is premium.
(...)

Hi,

I'm assembling a Maverick deck (initially the classic Zenith-GW version) and I'm not experienced with the deck, but your statement intrigued me.

Why is that the Sword of Feast and Famine is "already damn good in the normal Maverick variants"?

I often see builds playing with "just" 2x Umezawa's Jitte. What's the point of this sword? (And why not any other?)

And how is it often arranged in terms of card slots for "the pack" (X Equipments + Y SfM) in the decks that use it?

Sincerely,

- André

[Barook]

Hi,

I'm assembling a Maverick deck (initially the classic Zenith-GW version) and I'm not experienced with the deck, but your statement intrigued me.

Why is that the Sword of Feast and Famine is "already damn good in the normal Maverick variants"?

I often see builds playing with "just" 2x Umezawa's Jitte. What's the point of this sword? (And why not any other?)

And how is it often arranged in terms of card slots for "the pack" (X Equipments + Y SfM) in the decks that use it?

Sincerely,

- André

You're going to need some outlet to fight BUG Shardless, even if they run AD to kill the sword. If it's left unchecked, it wrecks them.

[Koby]

Sword of X & Y are a preference call. Sometimes, SoFI is the nuts; other times SoLS is; other times it's SOFF.

SoFF is likely best against combo because of the ability to discard the opponent and to deploy more threats (Thalia/Teeg/KotR into Wasteland).

They are all too slow when you really just want Hate-bears.

@Barook,
Every sword has a huge benefit against BUG. SoLS is able to give you some recursion and SoFI gives you extra cards. They can kill the sword regardless with AD; and if they can't their only recourse is blocking. With Mom providing evasion, each single sword will give a ton of card advantage.

[Zupponn]

Maybe its quite insane but if you looking for best OmniTell hate use:
Trinisphere
Oblivion Ring
Any thalia/Gaddock in numbers
Thorn of Ametyst - best multiple
Red Elemental Blast
Ethersworn Canonist
Discard
Krosan Grips

Not tested too many games but Trinisphere looks quite promising, similar to Canonist but stops from countering answer to S&Ted Omni in your turn.

Best had which they can't resist - Oring on hand and Trini in hand, from S&T play Trini, then Oring in your turn or GSZ for pridemage, or reb / any other.. Same is with Canonist but they can FoW your answer.

Hi, I'm a Dragom Stompy player and I can verify that Trinisphere is very good vs OmniTell. It can stop them dead in their tracks while you go for the kill. Also, it's probably not ideal for you guys, but Confusion in the Ranks is really good against them as well, either stealing Omniscience or allowing you to steal Emrakul on your following turn.