[Deck] Dark Depths

[Combo Player]

Hi guys! I am testing from the first new of changes of rules a BG combo. The only win condition is DD because i wanted a new pure combo.

4 Crop Rotation
3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Life from the Loam
1 Worldly Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Living Wish
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
2 Steely Resolve
4 Pithing Needle
3 Sylvan Scrying
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 2 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Spellskite

I play about 80 matches with the deck and I'm satisfied because is 50-50 with a big part of the meta. There are 3 MU very bad: Esperblade, S&S/Omnitell and Miracle.
Clock is 4-5 turn but sometimes third turn. The only protections are 4 Pithing Needle and 2 Steely Resolve, because there are basically 5 hate: Jace, Liliana, stp, Waste and Karakas. We stop 4 with needle and the lands with waste, stp are the best hate for our because we can make the combo another time without problems.

[adrieng]

Won a 32 person tornament, beating affinity 2-1 ; first game he kills me on turn four being nearly letal on turn three and i was on the draw had the turn four kill.
Second game i killed him tiurn three though vampire+dark depth removing his bloquer with golgari charm. Third game he had the turn five kill with bloquers but I had the turn four kill (ino the north) with seal for his bloquer. side : +3 seal +3 golgair charm - 5 shroud guy -1 expedition map
Beat UWR delver/geist 2-0 ; first game he has no pression just a single lavamancer. I had the turn one library turn three token he had the sword for it, I combo twice. Second game he has a turn three geist but I have a turn four safekeeper+ the combo. side +2 chalice -1 safekeeper -1 map
Beat merfolk 2-0 with submerge and phantsamal image side +2 seal -1 seal -1 steely resolve.
Beat jund 2-0 side +3 golgari charm+ 3 seal of primordium -6 shroud guy.
Concede to URG (submerge in sb) for the prices, but we played for fun and I won 2-1. Won game one easily, game two involved a missplay and me drawing three shroud guy, I played turn one mox+land into the north instead of needle on wasteland (cause I had two into the north), but the second one gets countered. I eat wasteland, and lost to two goyfs beatdown. I finish the game with hexmage in hand and an expedition map.
Won game 3, involving me trying to ghost quarter my forest to be submerge proof :P(him stifling) (he had the turn one delver turn two flip but no other pression) ; topdecking a crop and then comboing.

The list :

I am quite happy with it, wouldn't change anything even if I had bayou+fetches ; cause it makes you vulnerable to more things (wasteland on green can be a pain) and you need double bayou to hardcast the vampire. Didn't play any combo deck, but was somehow ready for it.

4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Into the North
3 Chrome Mox
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Pithing Needle
4 Steely Resolve
6 Forest
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Expedition Map
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 3 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

[TheSleeper]

adrieng: Love your list, for a dedicated combo list it looks really cool.

I wanted to share what I'm tinkering with, UG DreadLage:

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
2x Trickbind
2x Dispel
2x Crop Rotation

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Dark Depths
1x Forest
7x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Tropical Island

Most choices should be self-explanatory. Basically I wanted a high-threat density; the deck ramps up in power over time. Delver, Goyf, Dreadnought, Jace, Marit Lage.

I'm still working on a Sideboard. Unsure which (if any) Green SB cards would slot in. Any thoughts appreciated.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Into the North
3 Chrome Mox
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Pithing Needle
4 Steely Resolve
6 Forest
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Expedition Map
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 3 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

I like your list, especially Ghost Quarter. It's nice that you may "waste" their Karakas even under Needle naming Wasteland...
Any troubles because of zero Swamps?

[adrieng]

I like your list, especially Ghost Quarter. It's nice that you may "waste" their Karakas even under Needle naming Wasteland...
Any troubles because of zero Swamps?

Actually, the only black card you want to cast is vampire hexmage, so it is safer to play basic lands and urborg tomb (you hardly have two black sources).

Yeah, I might split ghost quarter into one ghost/one wasteland but it also allows you to destroy your forest to be submerge proof, or to fetch a forest when you don't have it.

I did an other tornament this week end going 3-2 losing to death and taxes and maverick, beating BUG tempo, merfolk and RUG delver.

I added a maze of ith, but maverick is hard because of Kotr which gave them the wastelock. I have been tinkeing about cursed totem and maybe dread of night.

We don't have a lot of combo in our meta, so I'ld better cut the trinisphere, chalice are for burn/elves/miracle/Ant(bad matchup).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

True, one Swamp does nothing and two are too many.
I think double Quarter is better, you nearly always want to start with Needle->Waste.

[apple713]

Won a 32 person tornament, beating affinity 2-1 ; first game he kills me on turn four being nearly letal on turn three and i was on the draw had the turn four kill.
Second game i killed him tiurn three though vampire+dark depth removing his bloquer with golgari charm. Third game he had the turn five kill with bloquers but I had the turn four kill (ino the north) with seal for his bloquer. side : +3 seal +3 golgair charm - 5 shroud guy -1 expedition map
Beat UWR delver/geist 2-0 ; first game he has no pression just a single lavamancer. I had the turn one library turn three token he had the sword for it, I combo twice. Second game he has a turn three geist but I have a turn four safekeeper+ the combo. side +2 chalice -1 safekeeper -1 map
Beat merfolk 2-0 with submerge and phantsamal image side +2 seal -1 seal -1 steely resolve.
Beat jund 2-0 side +3 golgari charm+ 3 seal of primordium -6 shroud guy.
Concede to URG (submerge in sb) for the prices, but we played for fun and I won 2-1. Won game one easily, game two involved a missplay and me drawing three shroud guy, I played turn one mox+land into the north instead of needle on wasteland (cause I had two into the north), but the second one gets countered. I eat wasteland, and lost to two goyfs beatdown. I finish the game with hexmage in hand and an expedition map.
Won game 3, involving me trying to ghost quarter my forest to be submerge proof :P(him stifling) (he had the turn one delver turn two flip but no other pression) ; topdecking a crop and then comboing.

The list :

I am quite happy with it, wouldn't change anything even if I had bayou+fetches ; cause it makes you vulnerable to more things (wasteland on green can be a pain) and you need double bayou to hardcast the vampire. Didn't play any combo deck, but was somehow ready for it.

4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Into the North
3 Chrome Mox
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Pithing Needle
4 Steely Resolve
6 Forest
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Expedition Map
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 3 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

i really like whats going on in this list.

I am however 100% confused about the golgari charm. Additionally, i feel as though this deck could defiantly use scrying sheets as a 1 of. Also, all the forests should be snow covered, there is no reason not to. They count as basic lands.

I didnt like how clunky 4 sylvan libraries felt. They seem like a if bad shit happens, I'm gonna dig for answers. Its really good but never as a 4 of. Theres so many 2 drops that are more important than this that it gets last priority. I feel like mirri's guile might actually be better here, as a 2 of and cut the libraries all together.

If bad shit happens, loam seems like the card you want.

maybe -4 libraries -1 forest +2 loam +2 mirri's guile +1 scrying sheets?


The deck plays surprisingly well and im impressed but i feel like its coming in 1 turn late against other combo decks... think theres anything we can do to fix that? Exploration?!? <---- doesnt usually draw hate

[adrieng]

I didnt like how clunky 4 sylvan libraries felt. They seem like a if bad shit happens, I'm gonna dig for answers. Its really good but never as a 4 of. Theres so many 2 drops that are more important than this that it gets last priority. I feel like mirri's guile might actually be better here, as a 2 of and cut the libraries all together.

Actually, library is quite good against sword to plownshare. If they sword your marit lage you can draw 5 cards and combo out a bit later with library (against miracle it is quite good

because you want chalice @1 after side)


I have been thinking of mirri's guile but didn't test it, maybe i'll give it a try.

Yeah the basic lands should all be snow covered forest but I had only three and without scrying sheets it hardly matters. Also, I am not sure scrying sheets is worth

it with only 13 snow cards but why not ; could be good with that mirri's guile/sylvan library.

Golgair charm was for flying 1/1 (lingering souls etc...) and elf ; but I am now testing dread of night.

I don't think loam is worth it, there is too much grave hate maindeck (deathrite shaman mainly) and we have nothing to kill it.

I am testing maverick/death and taxes matchups, death and taxes is winnable but not maverick they have way too much hate in my testing (even with cursed

totem in sb), any idea ?

[apple713]

Actually, library is quite good against sword to plownshare. If they sword your marit lage you can draw 5 cards and combo out a bit later with library (against miracle it is quite good

because you want chalice @1 after side)


I have been thinking of mirri's guile but didn't test it, maybe i'll give it a try.

Yeah the basic lands should all be snow covered forest but I had only three and without scrying sheets it hardly matters. Also, I am not sure scrying sheets is worth

it with only 13 snow cards but why not ; could be good with that mirri's guile/sylvan library.

Golgair charm was for flying 1/1 (lingering souls etc...) and elf ; but I am now testing dread of night.

I don't think loam is worth it, there is too much grave hate maindeck (deathrite shaman mainly) and we have nothing to kill it.

I am testing maverick/death and taxes matchups, death and taxes is winnable but not maverick they have way too much hate in my testing (even with cursed

totem in sb), any idea ?

The problem is knight of reliquary. Combined with pridemage is for the needles it's bad. totem seems too specific. It also gets your hexmage. But steely resolve solves the targeting issues whether its karakas or maze.

Have you considered living wish? Cut 1 hexmage depths and stage for 3 main? It could also get you sb answers main.

Dread of night seems nice but I wish it effected all creatures. We still have other fliers to consider. Delver, clique, and bitter blossom.

Rug Delver was not as easy as I would have liked. wastelands, stifle, counterspells, submerge and a clock...


the more I play this deck, the more I like it. It's defiantly missing something to push it to that next level...maybe its in theoros


This deck wants to draw more cards when its looking for answers. It has all the answers main but it has trouble getting to them. Even with 4 sylvan librarys. I almost want to test dark confidant. My only thing is that he'll draw all the hate which might be good.

i dont like loam. feel like its too slow cause this deck wants to be fast. Im running with exploration right now and its nice but the multiples kill you late game cause its just a dead draw. 1 of couldnt hurt tho.

I have no idea about the sideboard but i dont think trini is necessary. Maybe it is cause combo is hard to beat and it improves our matchup there. It just doesnt help vs show and tell, which isnt good either.


RAWWWW this deck is so frustrating cause its got sooooo much potential. but the building process is solo ruff.

not of this world seems interesting here. its always gonna be free.

reanimator gives this deck trouble too.

this deck has very strange matchups. It has a lot of freebies but a lot of not great matchups too. It has an incredible amount of conistency and resilience but sometimes decks just have too much cause it plays no defense.

[apple713]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=79812

Check this out for a Dark Depths deck

this deck is pretty sick. I've been testing it. It's a great blend of combo, control, and aggro. I added thespian stage to main and board for obvious reasons. I think that list is pre stage. There hasent been a deck like this since Survival. I'll be tinkering the list. I've noticed it has a lot of advantages over adrieng's list but it is slower. I find it to be a good blend tho. Being slower isnt necessarily bad because it turns your bad matchups into much better. You actually have more interactions then just trying to get your combo off before your opponent beats you.

I like it better as adrieng's list plays rather naked like belcher.

im on cockatrice testing it. lmk if your interested in playing

[Okapikid]

Heyall,
Looks like this thread is moving away from the all-in builds...but I'm a recovering belcher player :). That's my style so I'm still sticking with it.
Here's what I'm on at the moment:

4x thespians stage
4x dark depths
4x crop rotation
4x sylvan scrying
4x into the north
4x expedition map
4x pitching needle
4x ESG
4x steely resolve
4x not of this world (this card is actually incredible here)
3x chrome mox
2x lotus petal
4x snow covered forest
4x gemstone mine
3x ghost quarter
2x ancient tomb
1x okina
1x pendelhaven
*Gemstone/Okina/Pendelhaven are simply there to reduce the forest count (fight Submerge).
Only gotten a few games in so far, but I'm really liking the build. The hate is everywhere, but the deck is not only very fast, but it mulligans and recovers exceptionally well due to the innate and overwhelming focus/consistency.
The board is probably something like this:
4x Seal of Primordium
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Bojuka Bog
...then not sure. Maybe a tabernacle? Leylines? Howling Gale?
Anyone else still looking into/working on these types of builds here?
And yes, I'm aware of how good pithing needle is against me game 1 :)
Thanks for the input!

[Ingo]

A Jund color Lands-deck finished 17th at a starcitygames tournament.
It relied heavily on Depths-Stage as a wincon.
This is the link.

The mana-disruptive controlstrategy of lands, combined with the swift wincon of Depths, he can switch from a manadenialplan to comboing out very well. Seems like a very strong build to me.

[apple713]

A Jund color Lands-deck finished 17th at a starcitygames tournament.
It relied heavily on Depths-Stage as a wincon.
This is the link.

The mana-disruptive controlstrategy of lands, combined with the swift wincon of Depths, he can switch from a manadenialplan to comboing out very well. Seems like a very strong build to me.

doesnt lands get blown out by combo and grave hate strategies though? there are lots of them in the meta right now. seems like all the decks are running DRS or RIP Or some degenerate S&T combo.

[Ingo]

doesnt lands get blown out by combo and grave hate strategies though? there are lots of them in the meta right now. seems like all the decks are running DRS or RIP Or some degenerate S&T combo.

That's true, against combo, lands was too slow. But having a combo of their own (you can create the token T1 with a 5-card godhand like Urborg, Dark Depths, forest, Thespian's Stage, Manabond) improves the matchup a lot.
There's also gamble, which gives a decent chance of fetching specific hate T1.

There is a lot of maindeck gravehate in DRS, but PFire handles him well.
DRS main has the advantage that players sideboard less gravehate, and Dark Confidant is sided in against other gravehate.

[apple713]

I have been working on this in the rock thread. After much playtesting I have realized that while the deck has a heavy aggro element it really doesn't win via aggro and is more of a dedicated Depths combo. I will post here from now on. I have copied my two most meaningful posts here and deleted them in the rock tread. I apolagize for the confusion.



Ive been working on a list to incorporate dark depths. This is what ive come up with. The mainboard has been tested and I do not think it could be further improved but am open to suggestions. It is very very solid.


3x Vampire hexmage
3x mother of runes
3x thalia
4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant

4x crop rotation
4x thoughtseize
3x hymn to tourach
3x abrupt decay
3x path to exile
2x sylvan library

3x dark depths
3x thespian's stage
3x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2x wasteland
4x verdant catacombs
3x marsh flats
2x scrubland
1x savannah
2x bayou
1x karakas



Ive tried a number of different cards for the mainboaard and eventually cut them for the list above. Cards ive tried main include


Living wish
Into the north
Knight of the reliquary
Mirri's guile
Sensei's divining top
Sylvan scrying
Life from the loam
Swords to plowshares


Most of those cards are too slow, like knight of the reliquary, or are card disadvantage. Swords was removed hecause there is nothing worse than dying after attacking with a marit lage token because they were at 21 life.

A note on Mother of runes - is the most recent addition and solves many problems. Protects the token from almost all threats and can even push him through lingering souls tokens or other fliers. It also protects your important creatures like bob for card advantage and deathrite for mana fixing, thalia for combo.

A note on sylvan scrying - its card disadvantage and cradle and cabal dont get me any closer to the decks goal. The games the deck loses are to misplays which are very easy to do with this deck, and to decks that have a barrage of hate and not just 1 or 2 but like 4 or 5 and consecutively; swords, karakas, maze, lingering souls, wastelands, stifle. Obviously combo decks that get there faster, but thats why i run thalia and discard.

A note on - path vs swords...typically the creature I'm dealing with is small so 1-2 life isnt that big of an issue, but when we're talking about a 4/5 goyf or a batter skull then I'm really in trouble. Batter skulls life gain is hard enough to deal with, imagine if they gained another 4 life off the swords. If I'm using swords on the creatures it means that I need to slow you down. Also, the benefit from giving my opponent an additional land is probably not very beneficial. Im not playing a mana denial strategy. Thalia and Wasteland are included for other reasons.

The combo is fast, not Belcher fast but fast, I'll outline all the lines of play with it

T1 Urborg - ideally with a thought seize
T2 depths, hexmage -> win on t3

T1 urborg
T2 thespian stage
T3 Depths -> win on t4

T1 any land -> DRS
T2 thespian stage
T3 Depths -> win on t4

any 4 lands including stage and depths...usually a t5 win at latest if not disrupted.

Also keep in mind you can substitute and of those lands if you dont have them for crop rotation. So if you have a green and a crop rotation you can get your missing piece INSTANT SPEED (omg thats so important)

A note on Thalia - she is included strictly so I dont get blown out by combo decks. Since I can protect her with mother, that means that she'll not be answered easily by the other decks. The list of decks she affects is

High tide
ANT
TES
Belcher
ONMI-derp <----complete blow out if protected.
are there other combo's going on? enchantress....

S&T & other decks that cantrip, including rug, UR, miracles, UB tempo decks with stifle
Shardless (slows the cascade very minimally but still)

With her and discard package the combo matchups are not bad considering she plays nicely into the curve. T1 thought seize T2 thalia, T3 hymn, T4 combo

Now with all that said, I'm open to other options that do what she does. If they exist I dont know about them.

On a separate note, what i've found in recent testing is that the deck can be blown out to blood moon. Hasn't happened yet cause i discarded it but a potential problem. EDIT: it has happened and still beat through it with a DRS and wear. Wear gets countered sometimes but DRS lets you cast another DRS so you can hopefully have mana up for abrupt decay... Yes the stars have to align correctly but idk what else to do. Blood moon seems to be the only major problem now. (it happened in a S&T match, which turns off my crop rotation karakas plan. I still won the match cause his S&T helps me assemble my combo faster and a 20/20 is bigger than an emrakul :)

How to fix this? I'd really love to find an answer other than basics. Deathrite is one out but hardly the answer.

I wish there was a card I could run that would just blow out lands.deck cause that matchup requires to much thought. Its defiantly winnable but not easily.


Things I've discovered in testing

The manabase is surprisingly resilient. If they wasteland you, you can crop rotation in resp. most of the time game 1 they'll wasteland a colored source instead of saving it for depths. Game 2 is a different story but your colored sources are safe and your depths are being watched. This is fine cause typically you can play around 1-2 wastelands. The problem comes when it starts to be recursive with life from the loam or crucible. Or when its wasteland, karakas, maze all in a row.

Timing is so important in this deck more than any deck i've played just because crop rotation allows you to capitalize on their misplays. lets say you just have 2 forests showing and they choose to tap out with their karakas, you can double crop rotation, so wait for opportunities.

Once the counters are removed from depths, its going to resolve because its a statebased trigger. I dont know if there are any judges reading this but I was curious cause i read an old ruling on gatherer about state based triggers. If Depths has no ice counters on it and it triggers, and someone attempts to wasteland it, will it put another trigger on the stack above it because statebased actions are checked when priority happens or will it not add another trigger to the stack until its original trigger resolves?

Sideboard ( I have one now)

I am pretty dead set on these

4x pithing needle (karakas, wasteland, maze of ith, planeswalkers, kuldotha forgemaster, EQUIPMENTS)
1x bojuka bog (crop rotation target)

These are open spots im not convinced are the best options, but it is what im using at the moment.

4x dread of night (just really good vs D&T and maverick which are unfavorable pre board. yes I play with white creatures but i take them out and side these in)
3x choke (more hate for blue based decks, rug miracles, S&T, OMNI, High tide)
1x enlightened tutor (extra 1 of the previous 11)
2x wear / tear (can get value with red produced by DRS - mainly included to deal with equipments, o rings, omni - halls, sneak attack. hits things abrupt decay doesn't.)


I've considered adding 3x jittes in board vs aggro heavy decks but havent tested it. Pithing needle seems to stop jitte along with other major purposes. currently wear/tear helps also but if that goes, which im not opposed to, i may need to revising the strategy vs aggro)

Since pithing needle answers all of the "problems" other than blood moon, Really I just need to improve my matchups with my board.

I'm currently trying to answer the following questions with my sideboard but need help.

How can I improve my matchup vs aggro...mainly D&T and Maverick, but also including RUG BUG and UWR, merfolk?

How can i improve my matchup vs graveyard recursive decks... mainly aggro loam and lands.deck, but also including dredge?

how can I improve my Combo matchups...High Tide S&T and ANT?

What cards are the above mentioned decks weakest too?

[Ingo]

I have been working on this in the rock thread. After much playtesting I have realized that while the deck has a heavy aggro element it really doesn't win via aggro and is more of a dedicated Depths combo. I will post here from now on. I have copied my two most meaningful posts here and deleted them in the rock tread. I apolagize for the confusion.

It's very interesting that you were working on The Rock Thread with a depths list, as there's also a discussion on depths/stage in the pox thread (on mtgsalvation). Who knows in how many other threads people are discussing this combo?
Anyway, I find your approach very refreshing as I am (stuck) thinking in BGR colors. One thing I noticed though is that you do not run Life from the loam. Why is that? It brings your pieces back, recurs wasteland, and dredging actually finds your pieces faster (it's on your cut-list).
I will give you some suggestions to some of your questions in a later post, through the experiences I had in BRG colors.

[apple713]

It's very interesting that you were working on The Rock Thread with a depths list, as there's also a discussion on depths/stage in the pox thread (on mtgsalvation). Who knows in how many other threads people are discussing this combo?
Anyway, I find your approach very refreshing as I am (stuck) thinking in BGR colors. One thing I noticed though is that you do not run Life from the loam. Why is that? It brings your pieces back, recurs wasteland, and dredging actually finds your pieces faster (it's on your cut-list).
I will give you some suggestions to some of your questions in a later post, through the experiences I had in BRG colors.

Well I posted in the rock list because I was looking for creatures / spells in those colors that might help facilitate.

It makes sense that its in pox cause it splashes very easily there. I dont think thats the best home for it though.

I am very interested to hear what you included in red that was any use at all. I cant think of any cards that help.

so im glad you asked about loam cause im not sure that i've talked about its shortcomings.

So on t2 you can cast loam but you probably won't. on t3 you could cast it but you probably wont cause what would you get back? Fetchlands? Wastelands to try and lock them out?

T4-5 is where it might be used to recover pieces of your combo if you fail. Typically you dont fail once your combo is pieced together. Often times if you do fail its simple to assemble the combo again. Loam would make that easier, but i dont think its necessary. Unfortunately it doesnt have any other application other than being a back up plan for a failed attempt. It does not help assemble the combo in the first place.




im currently in the process of testing out a different sideboarding strategy.

these will stay the same because they are simply something the deck cannot go without.

4x pithing needle
1x bojuka bog

the next 10 "flex spots" i've divided into either against combo, or against aggro

against aggro

1x knight of the reliquary
1x mother of runes
1x vampire hexmage
1x dark depths
1x thespians stage

The idea here is to increase consistency and redundancy. Cut the disruption. Get your combo faster and more often. It's common knowledge that Combo typically beats aggro.


Against combo

1x thalia
1x hymn to tourach
3x cabal therapy or 3x glow rider (being to heavily dependant on discard gets blown out by leyline of sanctity)

The idea here is the opposite of the against aggro. Increase disruption and cut removal. survive and assemble your combo along the way. Control typically beats combo.

I havent had much time to test this sideboard but its what im currently in the process of testing. I'll update when i have some results.

[Kyle]

Hey apple713, I think what Ingo was saying about Life From The Loam is that you can use the dredge ability to get more lands into your graveyard, and then Loam them back. In our testing I definitely understand that it isn't totally necessary since Crop Rotation and Bob find your pieces pretty reliably.

That leaves Loam as an insurance policy, however one other thing I realized is that Loam also leaves you much more vulnerable to graveyard hate, specifically a 1/2 1 green mana elf called Deathrite Shaman.

In any case, if you've felt that the deck sometimes fizzles out, Loam might be the thing to try.

[apple713]

Hey apple713, I think what Ingo was saying about Life From The Loam is that you can use the dredge ability to get more lands into your graveyard, and then Loam them back. In our testing I definitely understand that it isn't totally necessary since Crop Rotation and Bob find your pieces pretty reliably.

That leaves Loam as an insurance policy, however one other thing I realized is that Loam also leaves you much more vulnerable to graveyard hate, specifically a 1/2 1 green mana elf called Deathrite Shaman.

In any case, if you've felt that the deck sometimes fizzles out, Loam might be the thing to try.

I understand that its an insurance policy. It also reveals more about the deck than is preferable.

Additionally its weak to DRS which is everywhere. pretty much anything thats black or green, which is about half the field

The other part of the field plays RIP.

I do not feel like the deck fizzles out. The only time that really happens is when its trying to assemble the combo a 3rd time. Assembling it a second time isnt hard at all. Many times you have it sitting in your hand.

in the few matches i've played I'm liking the new SB that im testing. Forcing someone to pay 6 for a S&T is nice. (thalia and 2 glow rider) Then they cant force your crop rotation into a karakas :) Owned.

[Ingo]

I understand that its an insurance policy. It also reveals more about the deck than is preferable.

Additionally its weak to DRS which is everywhere. pretty much anything thats black or green, which is about half the field

The other part of the field plays RIP.

I do not feel like the deck fizzles out. The only time that really happens is when its trying to assemble the combo a 3rd time. Assembling it a second time isnt hard at all. Many times you have it sitting in your hand.

I agree that you should not run life from the loam if its just for recurring the combopieces. But you can integrate a sort of loam package (like in loampox, or other loamdecks).
Cards often run together are Wasteland (ofcourse), Punishing Fire, Grove of the Burnwillows, Cyclelands (forgotten cave, barren moor for cardadvantage), Mox diamond, Gamble/entomb, Burning wish (3 loams maindeck, 1 in board), Devastating dreams, Raven’s crime, Worm Harvest

Loam is very synergetic with PFire/Grove. By dredging you get these in the yard, and have recurrable creaturekill. Pfire handles DRS very well, especially with gamble to tutor for it. Gamble also gets you your pieces, but with loam as backup (random discard). It’s very true that DRS is everywhere, but the advantage is also that players pack less gravehate in the sideboard because they run DRS main.

I like playing with loam, but you must feel comfortable with this strategy. Playing a loambased deck though, has the advantage that you can retrieve your combopieces.
But as you pointed out, the graveyard is vulnerable, so I also include Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library (especially when your opponent swords the token, you have 20 extra life to pay for carddrawing). I’ll also test Faithless looting.

Further cards are disruption (inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, sinkhole, abrupt decay). In the poxvariant there’s also smallpox, that gives a very strong manadenialplan along with sinkhole, devastating dreams, croprotated wastelands or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Loam recurring wasteland. But the reason I am dropping smallpox (and some part of the manadenialplan) is that you can’t run Dark Confidant along with it. I also run Raging Ravine and Tomb of Urami as a backup plan. So this is what I’ll test (no sideboard included yet):

2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian’s Stage
4 wasteland
1 Raging Ravine
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 badlands
2 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
2 Barren Moor
1 Forgotten Cave
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami

3 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
3 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Confidant
2 Sylvan Library
2 Faithless Looting
4 inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Mox diamond