All B/R update speculation.

[Gheizen64]

There was a card recently released that's dangerously close to Windfall, I forget the name of it though. And I don't think there's any way Jace isn't going to at very least be looked at for possible ban. There's vintage players who laugh at the fact the card made it through development =/ I don't think it's unreasonable to say it's probably one of the more likely banhammer targets. IMO the card is one of the biggest oversights and design fails in pretty much all of TCG history... although not quite on the level of Tolarian Academy.....

That said, Jace is boring.... he's making the format a tad boring and CounterTop still has ways to win without him now with Miracle angel armies. UG Delver Decks can win without him too.

All windfall variants cost 4, that's the same difference as Timetwister and Diminshing return: a lot.

[Lemnear]

All windfall variants cost 4, that's the same difference as Timetwister and Diminshing return: a lot.

Tbh Time Twister and DR don't do the "exactly" the same, but the idea is correct: Mana matter in combo decks

[GreekAsTheGods]

Jace is one of the cornerstones of the few true control decks left in Legacy. Removing him would drastically damage an important archetype that many enjoy playing.

You can argue that playing against control is 'boring,' but I personally like playing through permission, removal, and other answers. It's very interesting, just like playing as or against combo is - assuming there's some amount of interaction, at least. While the games are a little slower, that's not really a problem as control doesn't necessarily want to prevent you from doing anything, they just want to prevent you from winning.

Extreme case of a 'boring' deck to play against is fast, reliable prison - something that should never exist in any healthy format, at least IMO. Current control is a long ways from that, though, so I'm not really seeing the issue.

I actually run a fast reliable prison deck xD

So perhaps our definitions of boring are a tad different. My deck is actually a monoblack Prison that rushes Panoptic Mirror onto the field and exiles Fatigue with it to deny the opponent any further draw phases. And then I deplete their remaining resources with Hymns and the standard mono black control cards.

To me a fast reliable prison is exciting because it's explosive but in an odd way. Maybe the game ends very abruptly with one side not having any more options, but a lot of the prisons I've seen are really creative and interesting. Like an intricate setup of dominoes. Tip one and the whole thing is over in a matter of seconds and then it's not much to look at but the theorycrafting and setup undoubtedly had a lot of time spent on it. I don't necessarily mind playing against control, but I do find some control decks pretty boring to watch operate. The last local event I went to I got eliminated early and the final round was a mirror match where 2 people just said "No" to everything the other did for X turns. x_x It was a snorefest and I had to wait til it was over to go to KFC cause there was a raffle the same day for a booster box.

[AEnesidem]

I actually run a fast reliable prison deck xD

So perhaps our definitions of boring are a tad different. My deck is actually a monoblack Prison that rushes Panoptic Mirror onto the field and exiles Fatigue with it to deny the opponent any further draw phases. And then I deplete their remaining resources with Hymns and the standard mono black control cards.

To me a fast reliable prison is exciting because it's explosive but in an odd way. Maybe the game ends very abruptly with one side not having any more options, but a lot of the prisons I've seen are really creative and interesting. Like an intricate setup of dominoes. Tip one and the whole thing is over in a matter of seconds and then it's not much to look at but the theorycrafting and setup undoubtedly had a lot of time spent on it. I don't necessarily mind playing against control, but I do find some control decks pretty boring to watch operate. The last local event I went to I got eliminated early and the final round was a mirror match where 2 people just said "No" to everything the other did for X turns. x_x It was a snorefest and I had to wait til it was over to go to KFC cause there was a raffle the same day for a booster box.

Mono black prison-> reliable and fast -panoptic mirror combo

yeah right, i'm sure it works but being very reliable and fast? it would have been scoring pretty well in legacy by now.

[Higgs]

There was a card recently released that's dangerously close to Windfall, I forget the name of it though. And I don't think there's any way Jace isn't going to at very least be looked at for possible ban. There's vintage players who laugh at the fact the card made it through development =/ I don't think it's unreasonable to say it's probably one of the more likely banhammer targets. IMO the card is one of the biggest oversights and design fails in pretty much all of TCG history... although not quite on the level of Tolarian Academy.....

That said, Jace is boring.... he's making the format a tad boring and CounterTop still has ways to win without him now with Miracle angel armies. UG Delver Decks can win without him too.

This whole post sounds like pseudoscience.

If we overload the galvatron engines the proton oscillators may be able to warp the hyperspace in 2 parsecs.

[GreekAsTheGods]

This whole post sounds like pseudoscience.

If we overload the galvatron engines the proton oscillators may be able to warp the hyperspace in 2 parsecs.

Cool story bro. Write it down in your Captain's log.

[GreekAsTheGods]

Mono black prison-> reliable and fast -panoptic mirror combo

yeah right, i'm sure it works but being very reliable and fast? it would have been scoring pretty well in legacy by now.

Not sure how your opinion of the deck matters.

[Lemnear]

Did you just name a 5cc Artifact with imprint-costs of X mana in combination with the word "fast"?

[Norm]

Did you just name a 5cc Artifact with imprint-costs of X mana in combination with the word "fast"?

He's everyone's dream first round opponent

[GreekAsTheGods]

He's everyone's dream first round opponent

"His deck isn't on the tier 1 list I get my decklists from, we must flame him relentlessly just in case he's on to something!!"

I got flamed by friends when I opened a Mirage booster and called LED amazing as well. At the time it was labeled trash, my friend even lit one on fire because he was mad that he didn't get another card he wanted. Now I have the 4 I acquired for the cost of one booster and a handful of commons to remind me of how narrow-minded and sheep-like the community is sometimes.

It's the Karmic Justice of the MTG community.

[Barook]

"His deck isn't on the tier 1 list I get my decklists from, we must flame him relentlessly just in case he's on to something!!"

I got flamed by friends when I opened a Mirage booster and called LED amazing as well. At the time it was labeled trash, my friend even lit one on fire because he was mad that he didn't get another card he wanted. Now I have the 4 I acquired for the cost of one booster and a handful of commons to remind me of how narrow-minded and sheep-like the community is sometimes.

It's the Karmic Justice of the MTG community.

To be fair - LED only became amazing with Burning Wish and especially Infernal Tutor.

[GreekAsTheGods]

To be fair - LED only became amazing with Burning Wish and especially Infernal Tutor.

Way back in the day you could load a second hand into a Knowledge Vault over a few turns and effectively get 3 free mana before sac'ing the vault and having a new replenished hand too. LED always had its uses. The same thing happened with Bazaar. I got my first and only one for $0.75 and was told that I got ripped off cause the card was garbage. The MTG community is among the worst at theorycrafting because more than any other community they'd rather just flame anything that someone else hasn't already made successful and just hope people don't remember if it ends up being successful.

[Gheizen64]

Way back in the day you could load a second hand into a Knowledge Vault over a few turns and effectively get 3 free mana before sac'ing the vault and having a new replenished hand too. LED always had its uses. The same thing happened with Bazaar. I got my first and only one for $0.75 and was told that I got ripped off cause the card was garbage. The MTG community is among the worst at theorycrafting because more than any other community they'd rather just flame anything that someone else hasn't already made successful and just hope people don't remember if it ends up being successful.

Or maybe after ten years and thousands of cards the value of certain cards can change??!?!!????!!?!??!?!??

You're also speaking of combo pieces, which are all 100% garbage in a vacuum until cards that combo with them exist. You're just baiting responses and polluting the thread.

[GreekAsTheGods]

Or maybe after ten years and thousands of cards the value of certain cards can change??!?!!????!!?!??!?!??

You're also speaking of combo pieces, which are all 100% garbage in a vacuum until cards that combo with them exist. You're just baiting responses and polluting the thread.

Says the guy who posted a response to my first post on this forum calling me a troll and telling everyone to disregard what I said. Now you're accusing me of "baiting responses".

This is a forum... conversating is what it's for. If you don't like it then ignore my posts, but stop with your borderline paranoid accusation about other peoples' intent while posting on a forum. Hooooly crap dude. I'm not even sure if you're trolling anymore.

[Norm]

"His deck is terrible, we must flame him relentlessly to keep his ego in check"

Yeah, pretty much.

[GreekAsTheGods]

Yeah, pretty much.

I responded to someone who said prison decks were boring. There was nothing cocky or egotistic about my post. All I did was say that I use a prison deck and I find it and other prison decks exciting. Someone else decided to criticize said deck based on 2 cards that he knows are in it.

So yeah... nice try but your flame is just flame regardless of how you try to justify it.

[AEnesidem]

I responded to someone who said prison decks were boring. There was nothing cocky or egotistic about my post. All I did was say that I use a prison deck and I find it and other prison decks exciting. Someone else decided to criticize said deck based on 2 cards that he knows are in it.

So yeah... nice try but your flame is just flame regardless of how you try to justify it.

All i meant is that your deck didn't fall under the "fast reliable prison deck" cathegory. We have boring prison decks already and yeah sure your panoptic horror pile might be one but it's nor fast nor reliable enough to lock down the metagame or be tier 1. In fact that's the whole problem of those prison and MUD decks, they are unreliable.
The probloem of boring decks only emerges when they are present in great numbers.

[GreekAsTheGods]

All i meant is that your deck didn't fall under the "fast reliable prison deck" cathegory. We have boring prison decks already and yeah sure your panoptic horror pile might be one but it's nor fast nor reliable enough to lock down the metagame or be tier 1. In fact that's the whole problem of those prison and MUD decks, they are unreliable.
The probloem of boring decks only emerges when they are present in great numbers.

Goblin welders make anything artifact oriented fast. It's after they board in gravehate that I insta-lose.

Or if opponents waste my badlands cause besides those and Lotus Petals i have no red mana sources.

[Lemnear]

Goblin welders make anything artifact oriented fast. It's after they board in gravehate that I insta-lose.

Or if opponents waste my badlands cause besides those and Lotus Petals i have no red mana sources.

Come on ... you need a Discard-Outlet + Welder + the Artifact of choice here, in a format which has sooooooo few answers to a summoning sick 1/1 creature that depends on the GY ;)

Hilariously the same applies to DRS ... to an extend ;D

[GreekAsTheGods]

Come on ... you need a Discard-Outlet + Welder + the Artifact of choice here, in a format which has sooooooo few answers to a summoning sick 1/1 creature that depends on the GY ;)

Hilariously the same applies to DRS ... to an extend ;D

Entomb works well. And once I find a weekend where I don't spend quite so much going out I'm gonna try Gambles. In the case of an artifact it's basically win-win for my deck. Not sure how they'll work though... like I said, I have the smallest splash of red in my mana base so I might end up regretting it.

EDIT: AEnesidem is right that the decks are unreliable. That's part of what i enjoy about it though. I don't expect the metagame to drastically shift towards Prison decks anytime soon. Just when a prison deck does work it's a beautiful thing. Even if the decks, perhaps, have terrible tournament results due to lack of reliability. Nothing bores me more than watching two people take turns saying "Nope". That's just me though (literally it seems).