[Primer] Elves!

[Kayradis]

I strongly believe Ezuri is better than Eldamari.

But that's debatable.

[catmint]

In the RUG matchup, I end up going for NO on T2 so often with Dryad/Forest/Quirion and sometime Symbiote to add some insanity.

I once did the math on how regularly you can T2 NO to evaluate how strong NO/Thar is vs. Storm and it is pretty seldom that you T2 NO in general. RUG running daze/pierce making it even more unlikely so I would take "so often" with a grain of salt: How Strong is Thar against Canadian in general. If they have Submerge in Hand post-board it really sucks and with goyf + nimble/goyf they can just double block, which is a significant downside. However in my experience it can often be pretty tough against canadian to make good use of hoof/regal or to resolve NO in general (That's why I cut it down), so maybe Thar is the best target vs. Candian. I am not so sure though....

[Kayradis]

Anybody looked at Gaea's Herald?

EDIT : Multani's Acolyte? As a 5th Visionary?

[Dice_Box]

I strongly believe Ezuri is better than Eldamari.

But that's debatable.

I guess it depends on your plan. If you're more open to attack then yes, by far Ezuri is the better choice. If you're more after defence then Eldamari is the better choice. The two have merits and the answers I think is both based in ones own meta and testing.

Anybody looked at Gaea's Herald?

I have, I posted my thoughts above. It looks good but it also limits what can be counted to only Glimpse and fetches. Something that is actually of more harm to use that benefit.

[Kayradis]

So, tonight, I'm gonna try a tiny twist.

-1 Llanowar Elves, +1 Multani's Acolyte.

Ill let you know how it went.

[chinEsE girl]

Eldamari giving your things shroud seems like a nonbo to me. It means that all of your symbiotes and your rangers can't untap anything except arbor for value. Considering that I've had many games in which my combo turn involved untapping elves to either generate mana or have more attacks to make craterhoof legal I would certainly never consider running Eldamari. If your looking for some kind of pseudo protection for your guys (which I think is just not necessary for the deck but that's just my opinion) then Ezuri seems like a way better option.

[Dice_Box]

I would not push for wide spread adoption, but if the meta called for it Shroud might win you games.

[danyul]

I'm gonna say this at the risk of sounding like a dick - so here we go.

Without being too specific, a lot of the cards being discussed lately to resolve "problem matchups" are, to me, a bit superfluous. If you simply play your existing cards a little differently, you can beat those matchups more often than not. It's impossible to critique anybody's play without standing over your shoulder in an actual event, but know that you have all the power of Yavimaya, Llanowar, Pendelhaven, Titania, and Argoth in your hands. You have the tools to beat damn near any deck. You don't need cute SB tech or some obscure bullshit to beat some other obscure and *totally beatable bullshit*.

The thing is this...

You have to know when you were just plain beat by a topdeck or goddraw or whatever...

And you have to know when you just fucked up and misplayed your 75.

And that is a difficult thing to just throw at you in a digestible, text-based form. Some of that comes from experience and some comes from intuition, but knowing that difference will prompt you to rethink the way you play your cards, rather than the cards with which you play. Changing your approach to a matchup is, IMO, more valuable than changing your 75 into some janky doo doo.

I say this with all the elven-love I can safely muster.

[Koby]

I finally picked up a 3rd copy of Natural Order with anticipation of playing Elves in a larger competitive tournament. It looks like Elvish Archdruid may finally get the cut once and for all!

[chinEsE girl]

I'm gonna say this at the risk of sounding like a dick - so here we go.

Without being too specific, a lot of the cards being discussed lately to resolve "problem matchups" are, to me, a bit superfluous. If you simply play your existing cards a little differently, you can beat those matchups more often than not. It's impossible to critique anybody's play without standing over your shoulder in an actual event, but know that you have all the power of Yavimaya, Llanowar, Pendelhaven, Titania, and Argoth in your hands. You have the tools to beat damn near any deck. You don't need cute SB tech or some obscure bullshit to beat some other obscure and *totally beatable bullshit*.

The thing is this...

You have to know when you were just plain beat by a topdeck or goddraw or whatever...

And you have to know when you just fucked up and misplayed your 75.

And that is a difficult thing to just throw at you in a digestible, text-based form. Some of that comes from experience and some comes from intuition, but knowing that difference will prompt you to rethink the way you play your cards, rather than the cards with which you play. Changing your approach to a matchup is, IMO, more valuable than changing your 75 into some janky doo doo.

I say this with all the elven-love I can safely muster.

I definitely agree with you on this one. The deck has so much power along with a wide range of play that I haven't really needed any special sideboard cards or tutor targets to win matches. Other than the necessary combo hate, decays, and regular GSZ targets, my deck has stayed mostly the same for the year. In all I've probably made 4 card changes in the entire 75 going back to February.

[Koby]

I definitely agree with you on this one. The deck has so much power along with a wide range of play that I haven't really needed any special sideboard cards or tutor targets to win matches. Other than the necessary combo hate, decays, and regular GSZ targets, my deck has stayed mostly the same for the year. In all I've probably made 4 card changes in the entire 75 going back to February.

Also agree with this. The only major change in the last 12 months has been:

Addition of DRS as a replacement for traditional mana elves and long-term grinding vs Spell based decks.
Addition of Craterhood Behemoth and Natural Order as an effective "I win right now!" strategy. This takes over the traditional Glimpse-chain into a million elves plan.

Sideboard has remained relatively intact. The trouble matchups continue to be fast-combo and heavy control decks (in past years, BUG Landstill, in this year, Miracles). Play tight, play well, and understand the deck's role in those matchups. The remaining 20% is a luck factor.

[bizdoin]

I strongly believe Ezuri is better than Eldamari.

But that's debatable.

eladamri is better vs punishing fire

[Julian23]

To be fair, Eladamri actually does almost nothing against Punishing Fire. Without him, they shoot your Symbiote, then all your Elves. With him, they shoot your Symbiote, then all your Elves starting with Eladamri. That's borderline-useful. I believe Ezuri is better against Punishing Fire as she at least lets you regenerate all your other Elves with P.Fire on the stack targeting her.

[phazonmutant]

eladamri is better vs punishing fire

Hasn't the way to beat Punishing Fire (and Firespout, and Pyroclasm, and Devestating Dreams, and Thunder Dragon when those were things) always been Absolute Law?

It always looked like not playing it was a meta call, but I haven't really played Elves so take that with a grain of salt.

If you're looking for a 1GG enchantment to shore up the matchup, I think you should look at City of Solitude before you look at Raking Canopy. Although it can nonbo with a machine gun strategy and makes the BFF combo slightly less efficient, it hoses miracles much more than our own synergies.

Again, pretty sure this is solved tech. Miracles can never ever ever beat Gaddock Teeg in play. You can either play multiple Teegs, or you can play a one-of Sylvan Safekeeper. I'm pretty sure I've seen both out of Elves before.

Also, from the primer:

Gaddock Teeg
This guy comes in against most combo, Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Sneak Attack, sometimes Force of Will. Be aware that he shuts off your own GSZ/Natural Orders, so only play him when denying your opponent is more important than denying yourself. You might also want to board out some number of Natural Order when bringing in Teeg to limit this kind of nonbo. You would leave in the GSZ as a way to find the Teeg to begin with.

[uncletiggy]

Doesn't miracles have six outs to gaddock teeg at any given time I think you are giving him too much credit, I would also never not play atleast one.

[phazonmutant]

Sorry, I was unclear. They can Plow Teeg, but if he's in play they can't realistically win. That's why I emphasized playing multiples or also playing Safekeeper.

[Julian23]

Sorry, I was unclear. They can Plow Teeg, but if he's in play they can't realistically win. That's why I emphasized playing multiples or also playing Safekeeper.

Also, in this matchup, Gaddock Teeg should never attack into two untapped lands. Never. But I feel more like in the Maverick than in the Elves thread right now.

[Dice_Box]

When I have Teeg I never attack with him. We can win in a single alpha strike. Why risk what you are using to defend yourself?

[jedi_gof]

Anybody looked at Gaea's Herald?

EDIT : Multani's Acolyte? As a 5th Visionary?

Multani's Acolyte is awesome if focusing more on glimpse combo.
I have played 2 and even 3 previously to great succes, having additional, though conditional, visionary's.
After NO plan is prevailing as the "secret" main game plan i think it is not as strong though. But should you wish to do a more comboish route, they are really, really good.

[Kayradis]

After going 3-1 yesterday in the weekly Legacy here in Halifax, I'm reverting the SB to my old config. The changes were cutes, but nothing really was groundbreaking.

Multani's Acolyte as the 5th visionary was really good. Kept bouncing him on my opponent's turn in order to dodge the echo cost. The absence of Llanowar elves as a 1 of wasn't noticeable at all.