All B/R update speculation.

[catmint]

Also agree... the poll is epic and shows you should just chill out - things are changing.

[Megadeus]

4)The format would be more diverse without show and tell.
Well this is very speculative and I doubt anyone can predict for sure what happens to a format given such a major banning. However if you look at the DTB the last couple of months the number of DTB decks is very high (like 10+) and there are tempo, control, midrange, show-combo, storm-combo, thalia,... and many other decks viable. Compare that to the past with Maverick, Stoneblade and Canadian as the only Tier1 decks BY FAR. I think strong combo decks attacking from different angles keep those super consistent "good stuff decks" in check which have a lot more potential of bringing the format to a boring stall. With show gone, storm as the only combo remaining to hate out, the best good-stuff decks can just take over. You won't be able to play naya or some non-blue pet deck once show is gone. Those decks will still lose the much stronger midrange decks.

To be fair, with Sneak and Show in the Meta, most of those decks have a lot of trouble beating those decks.

[GreekAsTheGods]

Also agree... the poll is epic and shows you should just chill out - things are changing.

To be fair some of the highest voted options are still among the most popular and powerful cards currently too =/ Just ignore the options that seem weirdest and add a few cards from the current dominant archetypes and there ya go.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes, exactly. That was totally intentional. *whistles nonchalantly*


Ok, seriously: the reason this thread doesn't get restarted is because, unlike deck threads, it doesn't require a sufficiently recent OP as a resource for new readers. You could have a new poll every X months, but I believe this would only make the level of discussion worse, by injecting popularity arguments into what should be a debate based on knowledge of the format. (If you think the opposite is true, feel free to make your case.)

Now, the actual reason the 2009 poll is still there is because there is no "remove poll" button in the ordinary moderation options, and I thought it couldn't be removed at all. I only googled just now that the function does in fact exist, buried in a corner of the Admin control panel. But I think dontbiteitholmes actually did put up a reasonable case about the value of keeping it in place, as a reminder to not be too trigger-happy. Thoughts?

By including such a wide range of options that almost no one even at the time thought should be banned I think it too easily serves as a basis for people to snidely dismiss any suggestion that a card should be banned for any reason, no matter how carefully laid out.

Contra the suggestion I don't think the vast majority of people are particularly trigger happy. A vocal handful might be but they've never been very successful at influencing others. Rather there are too many arguments of the form or basis that Wizards can do no wrong or the status quo must be correct.

[Mr Miagi]

USA whining/outcry got Survival banned in the first place (yes, it's put rather harshly, but it's not far from truth), let's just not blow into fire anymore then we need to..

I find the current poll rather amusing as an example of omg, look at all these cards people thought should be banned but look at them now, just another card in tier 1.5 deck.

[ShiftyKapree]

To be honest I'd like to see Delver banned, I do play the creature but I feel like ever since it was printed is a powerhouse. I just don't like seeing it in every other match in a tournament

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also the fact that there was no "nothing" option helps the poll further misrepresent as a case of, "Oh, well, people always want to ban everything so clearly no one who ever says anything is bannable is correct, ever."

[Koby]

To be honest I'd like to see Delver banned, I do play the creature but I feel like ever since it was printed is a powerhouse. I just don't like seeing it in every other match in a tournament

On that reasoning, Deathrite Shaman would also see a ban. Just because a card is powerful and popular, doesn't make it ban-worthy.

Now imagine if we had a time-out system for those. Card sees too much play? Time out for three months. If it goes to time-out three period in a row (Three months in, three out, three in, three out, three in, three out) then it gets the actual ban. That gives us enough time to evaluate its strength in the metagame, and gives us 18 months to ponder about the problem card. It may lead to some wonky metagame decks however; and that could change the format for the worse.

[swoop]

Unban Skullclamp. It's safe.

[Erdvermampfa]

Unban Skullclamp. It's safe.

I agree on that. Most creatures that see play today have higher toughness than 1 (see Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Insectile Abberation) and therefore Scullclamp actually seems somewhat lackluster and I doubt it would see much play besides decks that specifically aim to make use of it.

[Zombie]

One more issue with Show and Tell, apart from sheer boredom, is how specific the not-mass discard hate has to be. The deck does nothing characteristic of an unfair deck. It doesn't cast expensive spells, it doesn't cast many spells a turn, it doesn't cast spells from unusual locations, or try to put permanents into play from unusual locations. It doesn't try to do the Dredge thing and put it's deck into the graveyard.

It casts a single three-mana sorcery and puts a creature or enchantment into play from hand. Apart from what the card texts actually say, that's so unassuming mechanically/logistically that little existing hate hits it and that a hate card written for Show and Tell would basically have a ton of splash damage among fair decks.

[catmint]

One more issue with Show and Tell, apart from sheer boredom, is how specific the not-mass discard hate has to be. The deck does nothing characteristic of an unfair deck. It doesn't cast expensive spells, it doesn't cast many spells a turn, it doesn't cast spells from unusual locations, or try to put permanents into play from unusual locations. It doesn't try to do the Dredge thing and put it's deck into the graveyard.

It casts a single three-mana sorcery and puts a creature or enchantment into play from hand. Apart from what the card texts actually say, that's so unassuming mechanically/logistically that little existing hate hits it and that a hate card written for Show and Tell would basically have a ton of splash damage among fair decks.

What you say is just completely wrong. Besides of Show variants doing everything you claim that show is not doing (which is not the point): Dredge is the prime example of a deck requiring specific sideboard hate (graveyard). Show and tell like other combo decks is hit by the very popular and generic spell pierce (and discard which you mentioned) as well as prime sideboard choices like flusterstorm and red-blast. All cards which can be used to great effect against other decks. Vendilion Clique, Venser, Oblivion Ring and Karakas are other very good examples for cards which hate on show and tell (variants) but are also good against a wide variety of decks. We are not a state where each deck has to play 3-4 specific "show and tell hate cards" like it was for dredge.

[Dice_Box]

Unban Skullclamp. It's safe.

With Prospector and Krenko it would feel like Food chain goblins again. Hell I can get into that. Totally unfair, crazy if you built a deck with Stoneforge and a token engine. Is it safe to unban? No I don't think so, but it would offer fairer decks a speed boost that they can use to match decks like SnT and ANT.

[catmint]

I think Skullclamp was a troll anyway.

[Barook]

I agree on that. Most creatures that see play today have higher toughness than 1 (see Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Insectile Abberation) and therefore Scullclamp actually seems somewhat lackluster and I doubt it would see much play besides decks that specifically aim to make use of it.

Aside from blanking removal, it's the decks that make especially use of it causes problems. Survival wasn't banned for the utility builds either, but because Vengevine caused problems with it.

One more issue with Show and Tell, apart from sheer boredom, is how specific the not-mass discard hate has to be. The deck does nothing characteristic of an unfair deck. It doesn't cast expensive spells, it doesn't cast many spells a turn, it doesn't cast spells from unusual locations, or try to put permanents into play from unusual locations. It doesn't try to do the Dredge thing and put it's deck into the graveyard.

It casts a single three-mana sorcery and puts a creature or enchantment into play from hand. Apart from what the card texts actually say, that's so unassuming mechanically/logistically that little existing hate hits it and that a hate card written for Show and Tell would basically have a ton of splash damage among fair decks.

Putting 15/15 spagetti monsters or free spells/I-draw-my-library "I WIN" buttons into play is the very definition of unfair.

One could argue that RUG Delver is a deck close to the unfair spectrum that does borderline unfair things with free/hyper cost-efficient cards, but remains fair in the end because said effects don't do anything broken in particular.

Which brings up an interesting point: Where does "fair" end and "unfair" start?

[Mr Miagi]

Which brings up an interesting point: Where does "fair" end and "unfair" start?

Interesting point. But let's not ask wizards for the asnwer, since they will just point out to the "NWO" (current MTG setting) and it's not loong we'll all be playing durdle Modern with better manabase

[Zombie]

Of course Show and Tell is unfair, given how broken the things that it puts into play are.
What I was trying to say is that, absent card text, the things SnT does aren't characteristically broken. Like, Canonist is possible because unfair engine decks typically aim to cast many, many spells a turn, which is a thing that "fair" decks usually don't do, or if they want to it's less critical for them, and so on. That a resolved Ad Nauseam is backbreaking is thoroughly irrelevant - it's an expensive spell, and thus likely to do something ridiculous. Same for Natural order or a large Green Sun's Zenith or Blue Sun's for X=ton. You can write hate for it. Casting a single 3 mana spell isn't.

[GreekAsTheGods]

Aside from blanking removal, it's the decks that make especially use of it causes problems. Survival wasn't banned for the utility builds either, but because Vengevine caused problems with it.


Putting 15/15 spagetti monsters or free spells/I-draw-my-library "I WIN" buttons into play is the very definition of unfair.

One could argue that RUG Delver is a deck close to the unfair spectrum that does borderline unfair things with free/hyper cost-efficient cards, but remains fair in the end because said effects don't do anything broken in particular.

Which brings up an interesting point: Where does "fair" end and "unfair" start?

As someone who did balance work for multiple computer games in the past, "unfair" or "imbalanced" is usually when the counterplay options available either require massively higher investment than the play itself or when there's straight up no counterplay available. I don't know if that really translates perfectly to card games since balancing based on individual cards or as 60 card decks is pretty different. And judging by power creep in recent years I'd definitely say WotC doesn't use that rule of thumb to determine if what they're releasing is imbalanced or not.

Regardless, I think it's a decent place to start from as far as determining fair/unfair. So, are there ample counterplay options? And do those options require a much higher investment in terms of deck space, card advantage, etc?

[swoop]

With Prospector and Krenko it would feel like Food chain goblins again. Hell I can get into that. Totally unfair, crazy if you built a deck with Stoneforge and a token engine. Is it safe to unban? No I don't think so, but it would offer fairer decks a speed boost that they can use to match decks like SnT and ANT.

You mean goblins would be viable and stoneforge isn't too strong now anyways?

Stoneforge and jitte/batterskull is too strong of a package - it feels mandatory for most midrange decks to pack white and this guy just to be competitive.

[Dice_Box]

Goblins are doing very well without the card, the white splash has helped us quite a large amount.

I played goblins in onslaught, I have my Skullclamp set still from when it was first printed and I would be happy to out the two together again. Like old lovers, together at last. But I am not sure if it would take off like it did back then.

Granted though the card pool was not what is is now back then, Abrupt Decay was not a thing, as well as Dredge and whatnot. So it may be balanced. I personally do not think it will be balanced but my affection for the card has not died and I am not against it being set lose.

That said, goblins would rise again.

Reread that, came out as almost total junk, anyway posting from a mobile so I can't be bothered to edit.