[Primer] Elves!

[Dice_Box]

Have you tried Jitte in that slot? I won off that back of Jitte smashing face on a Pox player even though he never let me have more that two creatures. I also have found it useful in games where life matters but you unlikely to see a lot of critters in the grave. Like burn.

It's more or less my flex slot at the moment and I have had one, lately two, in my side for a while.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Kayradis]

I can see value of Golgari charm in the RUG/UWR matchup.

[amppyou]

We split the top 4 and cashed out instead of receiving the card-prizes. We each got 540 cash.

My sideboard has essentially been 13 cards for the longest time because I always end up with 2 crazy cards in my flex slots that don't do much. Last time it was Reverent Silence. This time those slots were Golgari Charms. 10 minutes before decklists were collected I almost audibled into Winter Orbs. Charm did nothing for me. I kind of wanna try Cursed Scroll or something wacky like that and see how it plays.

i'm more curious to see if Ruric Thar was useful in the 75. I know he has his uses vs. storm, but that's the only scenario I see him being great in. Looking forward to the report.

I can see value of Golgari charm in the RUG/UWR matchup.

It always seems like the discussion is coming full circle when ghostway/golgari charm come up. the deck's MO is to be as efficient as possible, utilizing mana to the max. leaving 2 up constantly to blank cards they'd possibly have seems counterproductive.

Anyone here test/run joraga warcaller in the past? There are lists that have done well with him, but nobody on this thread seems big on him. Can't say I'm a fan personally (don't like his 1cmc, as there is a lot of engineered explosives running around in my area) but he's def out there.

[trevaftw]

Ok, counter argument is accepted. I can agree with that. I would not want to go lower than 2 basic but hay, I will give that a go and see how it works out. At worst I watch my Fetches turned to mountains.

WRT 2 basics if you happen to get paired against nic fit you can use veteran explorer and get two basics instead of one. Since they don't typically run wasteland you can fecth a non basic and allow for 3 lands on turn 2 or three (depending on their line of play). Also I think Savannah is worthless compared to taiga. When you need to generate one white mana and one green for something like Gaddock teeg it's very easy to accomplish with a couple of elves and not strain yourself. On the other hand if you need to hardcast Ruric Thar you don't want to be wasting your resources on tapping two elves for one red when you should tapping three for three green and a land for red.

[Absolutflipz]

I can see value of Golgari charm in the RUG/UWR matchup.

Golgari Charm was a card I came up with a possible SB card a few weeks ago. Sideboard slots are precious in legacy and versatile cards can buy you "extra" slots.

Anyway, I've played a bunch of 2-mans and a Daily (3-1) lately and I've brought it in for all of the effects. I've used it against some of the new Young Pyromancer decks for the -1/-1 (while you keep your Deathrites, Nettles, and most importantly Scavenging Oozes). I've brought it in to combat Rough/Tumble with the Regen, and also have occasionally hit a Mongoose and Unflipped Delver with the -1/-1.

Against BUG, OmniTell, and Miracles, the enchanment destruction is relevant, though I've yet to actually draw and cast it in any of these matchups.

Danyul -- I'm surprised your SB had no Thorn Effects - were you just trying to resolve NO for Ruric Thar in the MU's where Thorn would be good? I.e. Storm and RUG Delver? I always cut NO against Spell Pierce/Daze decks, so I'm curious what you actually did and how it worked out.

[Lemnear]

We have only 1 NicFit in our meta and I'm not too fond of limiting my access to Black and White by running more Forests and less Fetches.

I'm sure Harmonic Sliver, Teeg and Thalia are enough potential reasons to run Savannah over Taiga. I've cutted Thar long ago because it always got quickly handled by Submerge, StoP, Jace, Chain of Vapor etc. and Hoof would have done much more damage in those scenarios. I still have the Hydra God for matchups in which you can't really develop a board.

@Daniel:

Dood, did the Mainboard V.Shaman has any real application? Wouldn't you have prefered the 4th NO?

[trevaftw]

We have only 1 NicFit in our meta and I'm not too fond of limiting my access to Black and White by running more Forests and less Fetches.

Fair Enough.

I'm sure Harmonic Sliver, Teeg and Thalia are enough potential reasons to run Savannah over Taiga.

Just because there are potential reasons doesn't necessarily mean they are strong. I've found in my playing that the times I needed taiga far outweighed when I needed a savannah but ymmv.

I've cutted Thar long ago because it always got quickly handled by Submerge, StoP, Jace, Chain of Vapor etc. and Hoof would have done much more damage in those scenarios. I still have the Hydra God for matchups in which you can't really develop a board.

I disagree with your assessment. Assuming we're taking about a t2 hoof/ruric means you have 3 or 4 creatures for hoof's trigger but they are probably tapped for mana and can't attack. This means at most you'd be swinging for 10 damage which can get sworded (and prevented) or chained (and prevented) or submerged (and prevented) and etc. I think a near guaranteed 6 damage to remove him in these scenarios out weighs the possibility of 4 extra points of damage. This also doesn't factor in the possibility if they have a blocker of some sort to prevent some hoof damage.

If we start pushing back the turn we NO for Ruric Thar then yes he will become less useful compared to Hoof. The whole point of Ruric Thar is to get him out early and put pressure on so we have time to win.

[Lemnear]

Then we can do the math for having the turn 2 NO with 3/4 Natural Orders Maindeck for Ruric being maybe better than Hoof and do it again for turn 3 scenarios in which Hoof should easily do more damage/kill your opponent.

The turn 2 NO for Thar is significantly less likely than the turn 3 lethal Hoof.

I'm unwilling to run a NO target whichs shines only in 'bout 14% of cases. I think paying 2GG and a creature for just 6 damage is a horrible trade

[unemployer]

Hey guys, Played last Sunday here in Manila and landed 12th out of 53 players. Played the same build but changed the 1 Llanowar to a 2nd Birchlore.

2 birchlore rangers
4 deathrite shaman
4 wirewood symbiote
4 quirion ranger
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
1 wirewood hivemaster
4 elvish visionary
1 elvish archdruid
1 viridian shaman
2 craterhoof behemoth

3 natural order
1 beck // call
4 green sun's zenith
4 glimpse of nature

2 wooded foothills
1 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 tropical island
3 gaea's cradle
1 dryad arbor
2 forest

sideboard:
1 gaddock teeg
4 cabal therapy
2 mindbreak trap
1 flusterstorm
2 abrupt decay
1 natural order
1 dryad arbor
1 progenitus
1 harmonic sliver
1 sylvan library

R1 Shardless Bug 2-1

G1: He was the first round on my last tournament and we both know what we were playing. Comboed off on T4 or T5 with GSZ for Hoof with around 11-14 creatures due to Glimpse > Heritage and Nettle.
G2: I comboed on T2 but stopped after drawing around 8-9 cards. End of my turn he played Golgari Charm and almost wiped my board. I was left with 1 DRS and 3 Nettle. On his T3, he played a Shardless Agent and cascaded an Ancestral Vision. I attacked on my T3 and just played a land. On his T4, he played an infest. That was basically GG for me
G3: My combo stopped on T4 and met a Golgari Charm. He had another payday with Shardless > Ancestral but I had the NO > Prog on the next turn. GG

R2: Zoo 2-0
G1: Comboed off on T5 or T6. He had a lot of removals and I was until 4. I had 1 elf in play, a Nettle, Heritage, Symbiote and a Glimpse. I top decked a cradle and comboed from there.
G2: I played a T3 NO > Prog. He doesn't have any answer. GG

R3: UR Show and Tell 1-2

G1: He didn't keep a good hand and by the time he played SnT > Emra, I had a hoof in my hand and 1 NO. On my turn, I played NO for the 2nd Hoof. GG
G2: I boarded a lot of hate against him but he had better draws. I had the Teeg on T2 and on my T3, my combo stopped while drawing 6-8 cards. On his turn he played Pyroclasm and that was it for me. He then played the Griselbrand and the draw 7 bailed him.
G3: He played a T0 Leyline and couldn't play my Therapies. I drew a Hoof and Harmonic and I was thinking of just keeping them until I needed it for the moment. I played around 4 creatures which my met by Pyroclasm on the next turn. He played SnT on the next turn and I was thinking of what card he will show since he was down to 8. I thought about it and I knew it was Griselbrand, not Sneak or Emra, and I was right. I played the hoof. On the next turns, I just drew bricks and had no significant threats. He killed me after 3 turns with Grisel. I never recovered from his gain life and draw 7. GG

R4: Shardless Bug 2-0
G1: Comboed on T5 with 5 creatures in play and NO for Hoof.
G2: My combo stopped on T3 and he played Golgari charm and killed almost everyone. I had 1 Nettle and 1 DRS in play the NO > Progenitus. GG


R5: Shardless Bug 2-0
G1: I comboed on T4 and killed him with Hoof. He only had 1 4/5 Goyf and 1 DRS and I had 6 creature with NO for Hoof.
G2: I comboed on T3 and he had the chance to play Golgari Charm and didn't. When I had 4 mana, I played NO and in response he played Golgari Charm which left me 2 Nettle, 1 without summoning sickness, and 1 DRS. He thought that the Hoof cannot kill him on that turn. I brought in Progenitus and he had a 2-turn clock. GG


R6: RUG 0-2
It was the same guy from the last tournament I played and I knew he played RUG. I was at 7th place and he was at 8th. We hand to play the last round in order for 1 of us to reach Top 8.
G1: He played a lot of attrition and a lot of counters. I was down to 3 and he had 1 Insect and 1 Goyf and he was down to 13. I was left with 3 creatures, Visionary, Quirion and Birchlore with 1 Cradle and Bayou. He had 2 cards in hand and just played the FOW the last turn. I made a misplay and played my NO immediately without thinking or floating proper mana. I tapped the Cradle and Bayou and played NO and SACRIFICIED Birchlore. Stupid play! because I hurried that one. He played daze and that was GG for me. It could have been my game.
G2: I played a Cabal and hit Brainstorm. I saw 2 Rough/Tumble, FOW, Stifle and I forgot the 2 lands. I flashbacked but met a FOW. He played Rough with 2 creatures in play and an Arbor. Next turn, he top decked a Cursed totem while I had 1 land. GG for me.

[MD.Ghost]

Then we can do the math for having the turn 2 NO with 3/4 Natural Orders Maindeck for Ruric being maybe better than Hoof and do it again for turn 3 scenarios in which Hoof should easily do more damage/kill your opponent.

The turn 2 NO for Thar is significantly less likely than the turn 3 lethal Hoof.

I'm unwilling to run a NO target whichs shines only in 'bout 14% of cases. I think paying 2GG and a creature for just 6 damage is a horrible trade

I also play Ruric and sometimes he is strictly better. The main reason is, with 2 Craterhoofs you have a raw power setup but can´t choose another way. Ruric is also a much easier hardcast (play taiga) with only 6 mana (and sometimes you are under heavy disruption). More and more opponents know how they fight the new elves, it is allways good to have more options than Natural Order into Bomb (yeah we play glimpse - but most of the time smash with NO/Craterhoof, Progenitus).

Played last Sunday here in Germany/Mainz and landed 4th out of 22 players.

Matchups:
2:1 vs Shardless BUG (Ruric win both Games)
2:1 vs Death & Taxes (a wall of Hate Pieces and i cut Progenitus for this tournament)
1:2 vs ANT (Missplay Game 3...search a Quirion instead of Deathrite)
2:0 vs Jund (Game 1 Ruric, Game 2 Ooze - played 2 of them this time)
2:0 vs High Tide (Game 1, Play NO to bait Force, hardcast Craterhoof, Game 2 he fizzles against an Army of Dorks)

@danyoul: Gratz!

[Lemnear]

The goal of 4 GSZ, 4 NO and 2 Hoofs IS redundancy and there are not that many matchups which can't handle Thar mainboard so, as I mentioned, I don't run Ruric just to beat ANT game 1. More and more RUG Delver shift to UWR and run StoP + Geist + SFM which is bad news for Thar against those kind of decks.

6 mana isn't achievable under "heavy disruption" in my books facing Perish, Plague, E.E., Terminus, Grim Lavamancer, Burn, etc.

I still doubt players know how to tackle Elves. As long as Peeps counter DRS and Glimpse while underestimsting the redundant options to grab Hoof/Progenitus, Elves have an easy time which we acknowledge by all the good placings of even questionable builds around the globe

[Lemnear]

Oh myyyyy ... The spoilered Devotion-mechanic of Theros will bring up a nasty creature with 5/5 for GG for the formats #1 deck of colored permaments :)


(Double post for Headline)

[Zombie]

Oh myyyyy ... The spoilered Devotion-mechanic of Theros will bring up a nasty creature with 5/5 for GG for the formats #1 deck of colored permaments :)


(Double post for Headline)

Link?

Also, I wouldn't be so adamant on saying Thar is just bad. I think it's a meta choice, for the most part. You have lots of Delver/combo/Miracles in your meta, Thar is pretty kickass. If you have a midrange meta, the 2nd Hoof is pretty much the right call. Also, you can just have awkward hands where you can get a T2/T3 NO but not have much to swing with, where having Thar is good. Dealing with it makes them consume resources and take a good chunk of damage, and we still have the Hoof and a million ways to get it into play at a later point where it's game-winning. Plus you just tend to assume the opponent always has an answer to Thar ready in hand, which isn't always the case at all. At that point, they're pretty much screwed.

[danyul]

Tourney report up here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...layers-8-25-13

Have you tried Jitte in that slot? I won off that back of Jitte smashing face on a Pox player even though he never let me have more that two creatures. I also have found it useful in games where life matters but you unlikely to see a lot of critters in the grave. Like burn.

It's more or less my flex slot at the moment and I have had one, lately two, in my side for a while.

I have thought about that. It's definitely on my list of things to try.

Danyul -- I'm surprised your SB had no Thorn Effects - were you just trying to resolve NO for Ruric Thar in the MU's where Thorn would be good? I.e. Storm and RUG Delver? I always cut NO against Spell Pierce/Daze decks, so I'm curious what you actually did and how it worked out.

Storm and RUG Delver aren't as popular in my meta anymore so I don't stress too much about having specific SB cards for them. I seem to do alright with my Therapies and Teeg for Storm and Scooze + whatever for RUG on the rare occasion that I get paired against them.

@Daniel:

Dood, did the Mainboard V.Shaman has any real application? Wouldn't you have prefered the 4th NO?

The Shaman has saved my ass plenty of times before. I didn't really use it much in this latest tournament but I have seen more Chalice decks running around the meta so I leave it in as a safety net. Also, Stoneforge decks are always around.

@danyoul: Gratz!

Thanks!

Ruric Thar was a bit lackluster for me all day. But I may have been simply bringing him in for the wrong matchups. For now I'll leave him in but I'm officially upset with him and our relationship is strained. He is in the doghouse.

[Lemnear]

Link?

Also, I wouldn't be so adamant on saying Thar is just bad. I think it's a meta choice, for the most part. You have lots of Delver/combo/Miracles in your meta, Thar is pretty kickass. If you have a midrange meta, the 2nd Hoof is pretty much the right call. Also, you can just have awkward hands where you can get a T2/T3 NO but not have much to swing with, where having Thar is good. Dealing with it makes them consume resources and take a good chunk of damage, and we still have the Hoof and a million ways to get it into play at a later point where it's game-winning. Plus you just tend to assume the opponent always has an answer to Thar ready in hand, which isn't always the case at all. At that point, they're pretty much screwed.

Miracles have Terminus, StoP, Karakas and SDT to find those, so I would step away from saying Thar really does more than 6-12 damage against them.

The combo-thing is twofold: it's pretty nice against ANT if you can land it turn 2 (or turn 3 in the play) but is often too slow against OmniTell, TES and Reanimator. Therefore I suspecf other cards than Thar for those matchups unless you combine him with a flurry of other hate like Therapy, Thalia, etc. and at this point it's impossible to argue that Thar was a cornerstone of your victory.

@spoiler

In MaRo's latest article he spoilered a 5/5 for GG and with the Devotion mechanic as a successor of Chroma, combined with the Infos we have already gathered about the Devotion-Demon and the first God, it's only counting 1+1 to imagine WotC printing a Legendary enchantment creature God for GG which is a 5/5 creature and indestructible as long as you control a certain about of green manasymbols among permaments (otherwise it's just an enchantment) + having a color-specific ability in both forms

[Zombie]

It probably doesn't. But neither does a Hoof played out when you don't have friends to swing with it, and it's vulnerable to all the same hate. And it's not like a Ruric configuration lacks the ability to just Hoof for lethal. It still has that. It's more that Ruric replaces those low-value Hoofs which you''d use the second Hoof for in the first place by doing roughly the same things plus extra value against combo and a lot of corner case utility where an opponent doesn't have answers ready in hand.

Whether it's a cornerstone depends entirely on the hand. Sometimes it's NO=>Thar, sometimes it's Thorn, sometimes it's Therapy, sometimes Teeg. Often two of those. The idea is to just have too much hate, which Thar helps ensure backbreaking plays all day long for low slot investment.

[Lemnear]

So you have Teeg + Thar in your SB as GSZ/NO targets?

[Zombie]

So you have Teeg + Thar in your SB as GSZ/NO targets?

Maindeck, actually. My meta is almost nothing but combo and tempo. Teeg/Ruric main, Prog, 2 Oozes, 2 Thorn, 4 Therapy side. For a fairer meta I'd swap Teeg to the side and the one Ooze to main at least.

[Lemnear]

Maindeck, actually. My meta is almost nothing but combo and tempo. Teeg/Ruric main, Prog, 2 Oozes, 2 Thorn, 4 Therapy side. For a fairer meta I'd swap Teeg to the side and the one Ooze to main at least.

In addition to a single MD Hoof i guess? I support the SB in that case

[Zombie]

In addition to a single MD Hoof i guess? I support the SB in that case

Of course. I thought 1 Hoof main was a foregone conclusion for this deck? O_o'