[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[SaberTooth]

sh*t happens, just try to rebuild your list

[Jay_Gatz]

// Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Disfigure
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Carpet of Flowers.

I would be terrified to cast ad nauseam from any life total with this deck.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I would be terrified to cast ad nauseam from any life total with this deck.

Because of what? The one-of EtW? Remember the BW lists? And you needed to find one more ritual to have mana for your BW->awesomeness so it's not like you were better with BW than with EtW main.

It plays like this:
a) Turn-1 hand? Go for EtW.
b) Turn-2 hand? Go for EtW or go for PiF or go for AdN and stop when you're ready to go for EtW/PiF/ToA.
c) Turn-more hand? Kill with PiF.

AdN is tertiary engine.

[Asgar]

Ad Nauseam is a Bad Engine. Everyone, who Knies this de l will know this. It's what Carsten Kötter says and Even Timo Schünemann and Ari Lax call it the worst win-con.
Move it to the SB, Cut a Lotus Petal and a Discard spell for cantrips and/or a Second PIF, Play some Basics and start having success as Long as you cantrip Good enaugh.

[Asthereal]

Everyone, who Knies this de l will know this.

Wait. What? Sorry, but I still don't get that sentence after reading it three times.

But it's true that Ad Nauseam Tendrils is a bad Ad Nauseam deck.
TES is already a lot better, though TES also prefers to win through a natural spell chain.

If you want a good Ad Nauseam deck, try my "BR Opal Storm" deck.
It works a bit like Belcher, only with protection main deck.
Here it goes: (Stop reading if you want to play proper Storm!!)

4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 Badlands
2 Blackcleave Cliffs /14

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Diamond.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame /28

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize /7

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Empty the Warrens /11

Side:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames.
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Burning Wish
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize
3 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroclasm /15

[Jay_Gatz]

Because of what? The one-of EtW? Remember the BW lists? And you needed to find one more ritual to have mana for your BW->awesomeness so it's not like you were better with BW than with EtW main.

It plays like this:
a) Turn-1 hand? Go for EtW.
b) Turn-2 hand? Go for EtW or go for PiF or go for AdN and stop when you're ready to go for EtW/PiF/ToA.
c) Turn-more hand? Kill with PiF.

AdN is tertiary engine.

Extra 4-drop and 2-drops that aren't tutors.

[bjholmes3]

Ad Nauseam is a Bad Engine.

This is something that I've seen a lot of, and it kinda makes me cringe every time. Comparatively speaking, Ad Nauseam is our worst engine, but it is not a bad engine. Yes, it occasionally whiffs, but you can't deny that it's value remains as something we can always do if our grave gets attacked against Past in Flames or if we simply haven't the resources to tutor chain. It's also our most practically hard-castable option, from my experience, so if things go awry, we can always sit back on an Ad Nauseam. It's a very good backup plan, and it's quite decent on it's own.

Also, having read the past few pages, I've become very confused and frustrated. Particularly concerning Sensei's Divining Top. The interaction with Lim-Dul's Vault is cute, to be sure, but the card is slow in its very nature. ANT is already slow(er than other storm decks), but that's because it proactively protects itself with discard to make it more consistent than other storm builds. According to my understanding, SDT slows the deck down even further without offering enough value to offset said consequence. Have I missed something?

[egosum]

This is something that I've seen a lot of, and it kinda makes me cringe every time. Comparatively speaking, Ad Nauseam is our worst engine, but it is not a bad engine. Yes, it occasionally whiffs, but you can't deny that it's value remains as something we can always do if our grave gets attacked against Past in Flames or if we simply haven't the resources to tutor chain. It's also our most practically hard-castable option, from my experience, so if things go awry, we can always sit back on an Ad Nauseam. It's a very good backup plan, and it's quite decent on it's own.

Also, having read the past few pages, I've become very confused and frustrated. Particularly concerning Sensei's Divining Top. The interaction with Lim-Dul's Vault is cute, to be sure, but the card is slow in it's very nature. ANT is already slow(er than other storm decks), but that's because it proactively protects itself with discard to make it more consistent than other storm builds. According to my understanding, SDT slows the deck down even further without without offering enough value to offset said consequence. Have I missed something?

QFT.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Lemnear]

Also, having read the past few pages, I've become very confused and frustrated. Particularly concerning Sensei's Divining Top. The interaction with Lim-Dul's Vault is cute, to be sure, but the card is slow in it's very nature. ANT is already slow(er than other storm decks), but that's because it proactively protects itself with discard to make it more consistent than other storm builds. According to my understanding, SDT slows the deck down even further without without offering enough value to offset said consequence. Have I missed something?

Nope, you didn't. And because the decks becomes slower and slower with every iteration, suddenly new Problem occur which were previously solved by speed (DRS 4 example) and peeps reconfigurate the deck again to beat those cards with a lot of reactive changes which do nothing to actually advance the gameplan aka make it even slower.

That's a downward spiral.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, hell. Do what storm used to do: Get frustrated, find a way to combo faster, and just win that way. Hate is helpful, but when it becomes too much, speed up.

-ABC

[bjholmes3]

One other thing that I don't like to see is Empty the Warrens. Amassing an army of goblins loses much of its threat value after turn one, not to mention that it is yet another card that is just slow(er) by nature. Furthermore, it's more answerable by traditional sideboard options. Think about it; exempting commonalities, Tendrils is hated by Leyline of Sanctity-type effects, and is more vulnerable to taxing, I suppose, since a non-lethal Tendrils is arguably less valuable than EtW. Now, EtW is not only another off-color card, but is hated by mass creature removal and the fact that your opponent is not dead. The fact that Warrens is better on lower storm counts is not that big of a deal, as giving the opponent at least 2 more turns to do things is not the best of ideas. As for hate, Tendrils hate overlaps mainly with Burn hate, whereas Warrens hate overlaps with Elves! hate and Weenie variant hate. Which of these is more likely to be found abundantly in your opponent's Sideboard? Also, given that this is Legacy, many decks will laugh at your two turn post Warrens clock. Hardly the insta-win that Tendrils is.

[Lemnear]

One other thing that I don't like to see is Empty the Warrens. Amassing an army of goblins loses much of its threat value after turn one, not to mention that it is yet another card that is just slow(er) by nature. Furthermore, it's more answerable by traditional sideboard options. Think about it; exempting commonalities, Tendrils is hated by Leyline of Sanctity-type effects, and is more vulnerable to taxing, I suppose, since a non-lethal Tendrils is arguably less valuable than EtW. Now, EtW is not only another off-color card, but is hated by mass creature removal and the fact that your opponent is not dead. The fact that Warrens is better on lower storm counts is not that big of a deal, as giving the opponent at least 2 more turns to do things is not the best of ideas. As for hate, Tendrils hate overlaps mainly with Burn hate, whereas Warrens hate overlaps with Elves! hate and Weenie variant hate. Which of these is more likely to be found abundantly in your opponent's Sideboard? Also, given that this is Legacy, many decks will laugh at your two turn post Warrens clock. Hardly the insta-win that Tendrils is.

You totally miss the forest for the trees.

EtW found it's way into ANT for the same reason TES runs it for a year: lower stormcount needed to kill, cheaper (manawise) than AN or PIF, not graveyard-dependent.

Many decks like RUG Delver can't interact with a resolved EtW game 1 and opponents bringing in Mass-creature hate against a Spell-based deck are plain stupid because all those cards are dead if you go for AN/PIF/spellchain. EtW puts the opponent for games 2&3 in a difficult position do decide if and how much creature removal they keep to be not 100% cold to EtW.

It's like playing Belcher.dec and arguing against Goblin Charbelcher because the opponent can board Artifact-removal or Pithing Needle ignoring that those cards are dead against the EtW-plan of Belcher

[bjholmes3]

Perhaps my traditionalism is interfering with a good opinion on EtW, but do bear in mind, I'm referring to people who have suggested replacing Tendrils and/or AdN with Warrens. Including Warrens as a supplement to the deck is an entirely different matter than making it the focus.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Perhaps my traditionalism is interfering with a good opinion on EtW, but do bear in mind, I'm referring to people who have suggested replacing Tendrils and/or AdN with Warrens. Including Warrens as a supplement to the deck is an entirely different matter than making it the focus.

Empty the Warrens is actually much better than Ad Nauseam against tempo strategies. It is also random sweet against certain combo decks when you have a Therapy hand. I have put in 150+ hours with this deck and have replaced my Ad Nauseam with Empty. It lets me run 2 Grim Tutors comfortably main which makes my Past in Flames better. This has been discussed a ton in the last 6 months or so. You really just need to play different versions of the deck in the current metagame and make a judgment for yourself.

[Lemnear]

Empty the Warrens is actually much better than Ad Nauseam against tempo strategies. It is also random sweet against certain combo decks when you have a Therapy hand. I have put in 150+ hours with this deck and have replaced my Ad Nauseam with Empty. It lets me run 2 Grim Tutors comfortably main which makes my Past in Flames better. This has been discussed a ton in the last 6 months or so. You really just need to play different versions of the deck in the current metagame and make a judgment for yourself.

Without AN you can indeed throw all the Arguments about the 3cc and 3 damage of Grim concerning AN-flips overboard.

But that's no news to me. As i suggested cutting AN months ago because of the issues of being a tertiary engine which fails too often because of the slower nature of ANT (aka loosing more life) and the higher average cc, I was called stupid, 'Cause "AN is still sooooo good". Kinda satisfiying like the predictions that TES and ANT develop towards each other in several elements

[Fatal]

There is one little argument which probably is missed when Ad N will be cut - Speed - you can't mostly kill turn 1-2 which mean you will be dead vs other combo decks which can do that, second argument is about life from cards so Ad N for value where your life doesn't matter or your opponent can't deal you final dmg this turn, I strongly suggest just keep ad N even in sb for those MU.

Note also that EtW is much easier answer then lethal Tendrils - EE, Pyroclasm, Plague, Golgari Charm are very common sb cards.

To fight vs hatebears you have two roads:
- have answers vs them (bounce/removal)
- combo out faster before they came on table

Let get scenerio fightning vs Dark Maverick - you have 1-2 turn before first hatebear hit the table, you can tutor single card with 5 mana floating:
what would you cast:
- EtW for 6
- Ad N

The best +EV play will be Ad N bacause you can:
- draw answer vs hatebear
- end the game right there

EtW way have chance to fizzle since he could sb EE/Plague or just fight with SFM/Batterskull,

Someone will ask also about PiF route - sure but in g2 it will be much harder fight with additional dynamic hate like surgicals.

[Lemnear]

Why the heck do you seriously think your opponents would board creature removal against a storm.dec??

Everytime I read such things I know why some storm isn't more successful. Even some pilots don't have a clue about how the deck works. Depressing

[Zombie]

Why the heck do you seriously think your opponents would board creature removal against a storm.dec??

Everytime I read such things I know why some storm isn't more successful. Even some pilots don't have a clue about how the deck works. Depressing

They can have dead so much dead stuff anti-token sweepers are a good idea. Better to play a marginal card than a blank.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I usually don't win with Empty more than once in the same round. If you don't play it game 1, they are not going to think you have Empty in your "ANT" deck. If you do play it game 1, they might board in some bad cards for it.

People come up with awkward situations where they say they want to cast AN, but I will say that I never want to cast AN with no mana floating in ANT.

Speed - Empty is actually faster than AN, in that you can go off more often turn 1 before the opponent casts discard, Deathrite, or holds up countermagic.

@Lemnear: I've always been a big advocate of this as well and have been on no Ad Nauseam since January. Glad more people are coming around (sort of… I like the surprise factor of Empty…).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Why the heck do you seriously think your opponents would board creature removal against a storm.dec??

Maybe because people are not that stupid as you think? One Rough/Tumble or Golgari Charm or Pyroclasm or whatever is not going to dilute their deck and if you really think that EtW is that sweet against tempo decks, than why should they miss that fact and lose to it repeatedly.
This thread makes me wanna vomit.