All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

Interesting thought. I like it. Might test that in a vintage build for the fun of it.

Here is the thing, I have never said it was safe to unban. Ever. So you are openly fighting with someone that is on your side. All I was saying is I thought the change would be an interesting one and I stand by that statement. I would like to see the change but I have never once said the card was safe.

Also that is change to elves from the combo version, it would be a new build not elves as they are now. There would be two different and distinct decks.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Interesting thought. I like it. Might test that in a vintage build for the fun of it.

Here is the thing, I have never said it was safe to unban. Ever. So you are openly fighting with someone that is on your side. All I was saying is I thought the change would be an interesting one and I stand by that statement. I would like to see the change but I have never once said the card was safe.

Also that is change to elves from the combo version, it would be a new build not elves as they are now. There would be two different and distinct decks.

Nothing is interesting about a meta full of decks with the same broken artifact.

[Amon Amarth]

Double agree on Skullclamp being interesting. Idle speculation is fun.

[aahz]

Nothing is interesting about a meta full of decks with the same broken artifact.

Are you sure? *cough* Vintage *cough*

I think it is highly dependent on details like the specific "broken" artifact in question and what other cards are legal in the format. However, I'm pretty confident I agree with you regarding Skullclamp in the current iteration of Legacy. It might be different if clamp was joined by some rivals being pardoned alongside for "balance", but at that point we're just talking a shitty version of magical christmas land (i.e. nope, not yours, at least in Legacy) for those of us that enjoy our Magic games with the safety off. The powers that be would probably still just fuck it up somehow anyway. The important reasons Skullclamp should be banned in Legacy are the card itself is too stupid looking and it just is not nearly entertaining enough in its "brokenness". You can't play it in style and it isn't that fun anyway. There are better ways to draw cards, if that's what you're into.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Is Earthcraft banned because of Squirrel Nest or its power level in a deck like Elves? I feel like Earthcraft is the most unbannable card in the format.

[Dice_Box]

Is Earthcraft banned because of Squirrel Nest or its power level in a deck like Elves? I feel like Earthcraft is the most unbannable card in the format.

Nest. Elves don't need it. We make mana just fine without the enhancement and it can't untap Cradle so it's not that useful. A slot uses for something else. The Nest combo is what got it banned.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Lemnear]

I would estimate that Elves and Enchantress keep it banned for so long, but at least Elves doesn't need it anymore with the current iteration

[Kayradis]

It could be a nice little thing with an untapped Cradle and the possibility to fetch hoof in a tight spot.

Still. Very situational.

[Gheizen64]

It could be a nice little thing with an untapped Cradle and the possibility to fetch hoof in a tight spot.

Still. Very situational.

"untap target basic land"

[Malakai]

I'll agree that Earthcraft might actually be unbannable now that the Words of Wind + Exploration interaction isn't quite so ridiculous.

[Lemnear]

Honestly, with the recent work put into Elves and with Theros basically 1/3 of the Expansion being Enchantments, neither Elves nor Enchantress need a potential boost.

Edit: Bet they trade in Earthcraft for the next card they ban in Legacy.

[clavio]

I think part of the reason Show and Tell isn't placing more often is that it's just not a deck that the best players like to play. Keep in mind that I don't think Show and Tell should be banned right now.

Edit: Bet they trade in Earthcraft for the next card they ban in Legacy.

I don't know what you mean by that.

[apple713]

I think part of the reason Show and Tell isn't placing more often is that it's just not a deck that the best players like to play. Keep in mind that I don't think Show and Tell should be banned right now.



I don't know what you mean by that.

it means that when they ban another card in Legacy, They will ALSO unban earthcraft.

Earthcraft is fine, it leads to a 2 card combo, which is allowable in legacy.

The stuff that needs to remain banned are cards that are 1 card combo, like hermit druid.

They should probably also unban oath of druids. Since it has no immediate impact when its played, and you have to waititll your upkeep to use it. Also its practically worthless against other combo decks, and for the majority of the matchup against control. Also to activate it it has a conditional. Having to give your opponent a creature, which means its requires another card for its combo, forbidden orchard i think.

[Lemnear]

it means that when they ban another card in Legacy, They will ALSO unban earthcraft.

Earthcraft is fine, it leads to a 2 card combo, which is allowable in legacy.

The stuff that needs to remain banned are cards that are 1 card combo, like hermit druid.

They should probably also unban oath of druids. Since it has no immediate impact when its played, and you have to waititll your upkeep to use it. Also its practically worthless against other combo decks, and for the majority of the matchup against control. Also to activate it it has a conditional. Having to give your opponent a creature, which means its requires another card for its combo, forbidden orchard i think.

First, you are correct about the B&R card-swap. WotC has shown a habit of doing that in the past to pat their own shoulders of how they keep the B&R list small and keep cleaning it.

Oath is a one-card-combo in Legacy most of the time. People complain about S&T as a 2-card-combo and you want Oath unbanned which doesn't even need the creature in hand but somewhere in the deck AND is even cheaper than S&T? No Chance in hell. Playing creatures would be an automatic drawback if every control deck just needs 4 Oath and a single Griselbrand to torture you (imagine it being run with Counterbalance!).

[evilGod]

I kinda feel like I'm falling for the troll here, but do you really not see how Oath of Druids is basically a 1 card S&T?

[dontbiteitholmes]

They should probably also unban oath of druids. Since it has no immediate impact when its played, and you have to waititll your upkeep to use it. Also its practically worthless against other combo decks, and for the majority of the matchup against control. Also to activate it it has a conditional. Having to give your opponent a creature, which means its requires another card for its combo, forbidden orchard i think.

Can we just copy and paste the ten pages where this was discussed at length or do we have to go through this again?

Basically Oath is just way too good AND it is a combo that completely fits in sideboards. No thank you.

[Lemnear]

I kinda feel like I'm falling for the troll here, but do you really not see how Oath of Druids is basically a 1 card S&T?

Legacy is a format in which about 95% of the decks kill their opponent with creatures + Oath of Druids triggers if your opponent controls more creatures than you + you only have 1-2 Fatties as creatures in your deck = opponent casts a creature -> you get a fatty in your upkeep

Edit: I agree with Holmes to stifle the topic "Oath of Druids" right here. It's always the same cards discussed over and over

[apple713]

Legacy is a format in which about 95% of the decks kill their opponent with creatures + Oath of Druids triggers if your opponent controls more creatures than you + you only have 1-2 Fatties as creatures in your deck = opponent casts a creature -> you get a fatty in your upkeep

Edit: I agree with Holmes to stifle the topic "Oath of Druids" right here. It's always the same cards discussed over and over

i think your numbers are skewed on how many decks actually win with creatures. For example, consider the following decks

S&T
Omnitell
ANT
TES

Painterstone
High tide
Burn
Lands.dec


The top 4 decks are all decks to beat and would oath probably would never trigger in those matches. The bottom 4 decks while not decks to beat are still played and would almost be immune.

Now consider that against miracles it wouldnt trigger. the deck could avoid playing creautre till they had an answer for oath...

SO, that leave you with all the aggro decks getting gang banged by a combo card... They usually get raped by combo decks anyways so there is almost no change here except just a different combo in the format that isnt really any faster than a reanimator strategy. The difference here is that aggro decks actually stand a chance. Aggro decks can kill oath before it triggers, Abrupt decay, krosan grip, qsali pridemage, mangara, theres tons of removal.

Oath is Defintaly not a sideboard card.... you have to have fattys in your deck to make it useful or you sideboard 6 cards, 4 oath and 2 fattys against all aggro decks? If thats the case all aggro decks should be packing removal that takes care of it anyways. seems like a non issue.

I'll go back and read the pages about it but i dont think its as broken as its been discussed.

[clavio]

Holy shit.

[Koby]

I guess this card doesn't exist:


Or this one:


Anyways, it completely hoses all creature strategies uniformly which would then push the format to become other Oath decks and non-creature Control and non-creature Combo decks. Seems like a hell of a format to play in. No thanks.