All B/R update speculation.

[Ellomdian]

As it stands, I'm hedging my bets at ~%15 that we see SnT banned. Really the only card right now I can see them touching, other than the lottery-odds Brainstorm ban. As it stands, I would really like them to publish the "Watchlist" to see the impact on the secondary market of cards, because I got burned on Time Vault way back in FlameVault land, and it would likely knock $20 off SnT if they are indeed watching it closely.

As for unbans, the list is actually getting really tight. If you eliminate ante/dex/AwkwardRules(TM) (Shaharazad - grrrr) you are only really left with a few options. Here's a curve-ball - Imperial Seal. It's effectively a "fixed" Vampiric Tutor that requires another investment to actually get the card into your hand. Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's secretly on the list for Availability reasons, and we haven't seen a Judge Promo to fix that. (HintHintHint...)

Can we just copy and paste the ten pages where this was discussed at length or do we have to go through this again?

Basically Oath is just way too good AND it is a combo that completely fits in sideboards. No thank you.

Why do we continue to talk about Oath? It's more degen than Hermit Druid, and that card still causes controversy when it's brought up. We should really have a FAQ for this thread that says "Discussion about Oath of Druids is as irrelevant as discussion of unbanning the P9 in Legacy."

I just want to mention that Genesis Chamber + Skullclamp + Vault Skirge + Memnite + Ornithopter + Cranial Plating + Signal Pest + Gaea's Cradle rapes Vintage atm. I do not want to see that deck in Legacy just with Sol-Lands instead of Workshops

"Rapes Vintage" is a strong accusation. "Is a very fun and strong Shop build" is probably more accurate. I like that it's a far less prison-y take on 'Shop, and it seems to change some of the weak spots of more traditional 'Shop strategies. I feel obliged to point out that Sol-lands are WAYYYYYYYYYYY different than 'Shop, especially if you don't have Moxes and Sol Rings to follow it up. You also still don't have Academy, Jar, and Lodestone Golem is less good *but by no means bad!* in Legacy.

But the discussion is moot. I think Clamp would be too strong for a number of reasons, all of which have already been iterated.

Nothing is interesting about a meta full of decks with the same broken *Blue Instant*

FTFY. Tongue firmly in cheek

[rufus]

As for unbans, the list is actually getting really tight. If you eliminate ante/dex/AwkwardRules(TM) (Shaharazad - grrrr) you are only really left with a few options. Here's a curve-ball - Imperial Seal. It's effectively a "fixed" Vampiric Tutor that requires another investment to actually get the card into your hand. Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's secretly on the list for Availability reasons, and we haven't seen a Judge Promo to fix that. (HintHintHint...)

IMO Imperial Seal is not unban material, and I think WoTC agrees since Mystical Tutor got hit recently.
Earthcraft,Mind Twist,Mind's Desire and Yawgmoth's Bargain are better unban candidates.

[Lemnear]

Deal won't be unbanned because of the pricetag alone

[Erdvermampfa]

In my opinion the actual discrepancy is that we're all content to play with and against cards like Delver of Secrets, Jace, Show and Tell, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay etc. but still argue whether things like Mind Twist, Hermit Druid and Black Vise should be unbanned.

[Ellomdian]

IMO Imperial Seal is not unban material, and I think WoTC agrees since Mystical Tutor got hit recently.

My only argument for Seal is that at Sorcery speed, you don't get to tutor and then untap/draw as part of a game action.

In my opinion the actual discrepancy is that we're all content to play with and against cards like Delver of Secrets, Jace, Show and Tell, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay etc. but still argue whether things like Mind Twist, Hermit Druid and Black Vise should be unbanned.

That's like saying that I enjoy Football, so why not just strap knives and machetes to all of the players since it's already violent :p

[Lord Seth]

In my opinion the actual discrepancy is that we're all content to play with and against cards like Delver of Secrets, Jace, Show and Tell, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay etc.

Did you actually just list Show and Tell as a card "we're all content to play against"? It's one of the most disliked cards in Legacy.

but still argue whether things like Mind Twist, Hermit Druid and Black Vise should be unbanned.

There's not that much argument on Mind Twist or Hermit Druid. There seems general agreement that Mind Twist would be a safe unban and that Hermit Druid is an absurd card that should not be unbanned. There's a little more disagreement about Black Vise, but honestly, it's tough to take your argument seriously when you seem to be claiming that Hermit Druid is on the same power level as powerful-but-not-broken cards like Delver of Secrets or Jace the Mind Sculptor. They may be good, but they don't have the ability "G, Tap: You win the game".

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd unban Mind Twist, Frantic Search and Black Vise.

Mind Twist is too slow and/or expensive in a format without Sol Rings.
Frantic Search does little when Dazed/Pierced and even if ti resolves, it still resembles Study/Looting, neither of which are b&.
Black Vise is crap and shouldn't occupy the list.

[Gheizen64]

I'd unban Mind Twist, Frantic Search and Black Vise.

Mind Twist is too slow and/or expensive in a format without Sol Rings.
Frantic Search does little when Dazed/Pierced and even if ti reloves, it still resembles Study/Looting, neither of which are b&.
Black Vise is crap and should occupy the list.

I honestly think Search would be stronger than Desire in current legacy. Candelabra, Reset and tournabout, on steroid, with added filter functionality. Untapping 3 is very strong. I'd unban Jar, Earthcraft or Bargain before it.

[apple713]

black vise will never be unbanned. Ever, ever never ever, and if you are to foolish to see why, you should probably just quit playing magic.

As for imperial seal, every combo deck not already playing black would splash black for it...I think making combo's easier to assemble for all combo decks is not what you want unless you play combo. Then combos become 1 turn faster / more efficient, and you get hozed. Its an auto include 4 of... really? thats what you want?

[Lemnear]

It makes each combo deck easily 700€ more expensive. That's pretty disgusting and unhealthy for the metagame

[Dice_Box]

black vise will never be unbanned. Ever, ever never ever, and if you are to foolish to see why, you should probably just quit playing magic.

Comments like this bother me. "My opinion is right and I am so good I do not need to state what it is. If you disagree with me your a dick that should fuck off and die." Its not at all helpful. Why not put forward your views rather than just flat assume your views are right and everyone else either agrees with you or is unworthy of the game?

[Lemnear]

Comments like this bother me. "My opinion is right and I am so good I do not need to state what it is. If you disagree with me your a dick that should fuck off and die." Its not at all helpful. Why not put forward your views rather than just flat assume your views are right and everyone else either agrees with you or is unworthy of the game?

Tbh the topic of black vise was discussed at least twice in this thread already

[Dice_Box]

Be that as it may, the issue was not with the card but the attitude toward other players that may or may not agree with Apple on that topic. I have no interest in discussing Vise. I have no care about it, what does bother me is the idea that someone can get state "Agree with me or fuck off" and have that just be the end of the topic.

[Lemnear]

Sure we can discuss behaviour, but I'm often enough in the same mood as Apple: Annoyed about reading the same things and repeating arguments endlessly. It's a long-time effect of being a member here. He doesn't intend to be rude. He's a good one

[Gheizen64]

Sure we can discuss behaviour, but I'm often enough in the same mood as Apple: Annoyed about reading the same things and repeating arguments endlessly. It's a long-time effect of being a member here. He doesn't intend to be rude. He's a good one

Because anyone that think Vise should be unbanned should probably just quit playing magic ? No reason to be rude, especially when you bring up a point that was brought out at least three times in this topic and the general consensus is that vise sucks and wouldn't be even played. I was around the first time one made an assessment like he did, and after i tried to convince him Vise was fine by building every shell for it imaginable and testing it, the most the guy could do was dismiss me as "nice joke decks, you shouldn't ever question unbanning black vise". Mighty fine open mindness you have there.

[FieryBalrog]

black vise will never be unbanned. Ever, ever never ever, and if you are to foolish to see why, you should probably just quit playing magic.

This is coming from the guy who thinks Oath "should probably be unbanned". You're not very good at this game, so try to avoid statements like this. BV is certainly a safer unban than Oath, even if it should probably remain banned.

[Ellomdian]

It makes each combo deck easily 700€ more expensive. That's pretty disgusting and unhealthy for the metagame

Because a Sorcery speed tutor that puts a card on top is an auto 4 of in every combo deck. liek, evars!

I think people are too quick to compare this to Vampiric. Then again, I think it would be funny to watch WotC core-set reprint something from P3K since I don't believe it's part of the reprint policy restriction just to watch the Market self-correct from over-inflation left over from IS's vintage restriction.

But it's moot - I don't think WotC can come out officially and say "This card is too expensive, so it's Banned."

[Darkenslight]

Because a Sorcery speed tutor that puts a card on top is an auto 4 of in every combo deck. liek, evars!

I think people are too quick to compare this to Vampiric. Then again, I think it would be funny to watch WotC core-set reprint something from P3K since I don't believe it's part of the reprint policy restriction just to watch the Market self-correct from over-inflation left over from IS's vintage restriction.

But it's moot - I don't think WotC can come out officially and say "This card is too expensive, so it's Banned."

...wait - I remember a good few years ago (shortly before the hardening of the Reprint Policy) when most of the Portal rares were on the List.

Now they're not.

...Weird.

[Rush80]

Evidence:
I wonder if anybody feels ready to contribute to this thread with a deck-list inclusive of Black Vise capable to challenge the current Legacy Meta?

I err on the side that is safe to unban it.

[apple713]

This is coming from the guy who thinks Oath "should probably be unbanned". You're not very good at this game, so try to avoid statements like this. BV is certainly a safer unban than Oath, even if it should probably remain banned.

i would bet that black vise being unbanned would be worse for the format than oath. Oath isnt colorless and does not cost 1 mana. Black vise on the play even with only 1 in play will get you about 6 damage. a deck that is designed to abuse it will end up doing a lot more. It would fit effortlessly into ALL mana denial strategies, which is something wizards doesnt want to support. just imagine a sol land deck that dropps 2 vises on their first turn. you start your turn at 14, then if you play a land and a brainstorm, which is probably the most common opening hand ever, you start your second turn at 10.

My argument for oath is that its an enchantment that has a delayed effect. most decks should have an answer for an enchantment, except red. Build your most awesome version of oath and we can get on Cockatrice and test it against the meta and see how well it does.