All B/R update speculation.

[lordofthepit]

black vise will never be unbanned. Ever, ever never ever, and if you are to foolish to see why, you should probably just quit playing magic.

Black Vise is one of the safest cards on the banned list.

Oath of Druids is probably the most dangerous card printed since 1995 (Urza's Block notwithstanding).

[kusumoto]

Black Vise is only good in your opener.

It's trash against combo.
It's poor against aggro (lol).
Its OK against tempo.
It's good against control.

The only decks actually doing mana denial are (terrible) prison decks and lands. The other "mana denial" that you see is coming from something like RUG that would never play Black Vise.

You don't want it in prison because chalice. I'm not sure lands really even needs the card. So maybe burn uses it? WATCH OUT GUYS!

You topdeck a Black Vise on turn 4. Against most decks in Legacy it will do no damage or just get countered if they even care. Too bad it wasn't a bolt.

BUT DARK RIT 3X VISE OMG!!!!

That will happen all the time I am sure.

Card is bad and would not perform if unbanned.

[HPB_Eggo]

I see no real reason to keep Vise on the B/R list, but I also don't really see any reason to take it off - it won't do anything interesting to the format even if it is good. It will just either be good and get stuck in a lot of existing decks or be bad and not be played at all.

Either way, who cares if it stays on the list? I certainly don't. WotC will probably remove it when they put something else under the pretense of throwing a bone to Legacy players.

[Koby]

Evidence:
I wonder if anybody feels ready to contribute to this thread with a deck-list inclusive of Black Vise capable to challenge the current Legacy Meta?

I err on the side that is safe to unban it.

Unfortunately, the onus is on those claiming it should be unbanned to prove it's safe. The status quo of Black Vise banned is a majority attitude, and to make a good argument to get it unbanned one would need to demonstrate it.

BUT DARK RIT 3X VISE OMG!!!!

That will happen all the time I am sure.

Card is bad and would not perform if unbanned.

The converse of Black Vise is The Rack, and in Dark Ritual decks discard is easier than forcing 7. The Rack barely sees play when it wrecks with Liliana. That should speak about how little play Black Vise will see.

[apple713]

The converse of Black Vise is The Rack, and in Dark Ritual decks discard is easier than forcing 7. The Rack barely sees play when it wrecks with Liliana. That should speak about how little play Black Vise will see.

yall are missing the key factor. Black vise is usable immediately, and the rack requires several turns to dwindle their hand down. With black vise you can race them, and i bet black vise will race any most aggro strategys.

there are so many efficient bounce spells taht just erase the threat of aggro decks. devastation tide for one. and for control decks, Sunder... not to mention it fits pretty well into tezzeret decks already existing. Its be an auto include in RDW id think,

[dontbiteitholmes]

yall are missing the key factor. Black vise is usable immediately, and the rack requires several turns to dwindle their hand down. With black vise you can race them, and i bet black vise will race any most aggro strategys.

there are so many efficient bounce spells taht just erase the threat of aggro decks. devastation tide for one. and for control decks, Sunder... not to mention it fits pretty well into tezzeret decks already existing. Its be an auto include in RDW id think,

I think you'd be wrong. The only decks I'd put Vice in would be Prison, Stasis, or possibly some kind of old school Prosperity combo deck (similar to what got Vice Restricted in Vintage back in the day). It would be meh at best in RDW.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think you'd be wrong. The only decks I'd put Vice in would be Prison, Stasis, or possibly some kind of old school Prosperity combo deck (similar to what got Vice Restricted in Vintage back in the day). It would be meh at best in RDW.

Yes, I'd play it in exactly those decks. I even may put it in some Pox-like GB prison that'll be trimmed to play more of the "destroy target" than "target discards".

4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox (yeah, but it keeps them from mana)
4 Iced Earth
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
4 Trinisphere
4 Pulse/Putrefy
4 Black Vise
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Nether Void
lands

[DragoFireheart]

Unfortunately, the onus is on those claiming it should be unbanned to prove it's safe. The status quo of Black Vise banned is a majority attitude,

Because WotC cares about status quo. That's that they dropped the Restricted List, reprinted dual lands on a mass scale, and kept Survival of the Fittest unbanned.

[Ellomdian]

Because WotC cares about status quo. That's that they dropped the Restricted List, reprinted dual lands on a mass scale, and kept Survival of the Fittest unbanned.

Status quo, ie, commonly used form of the original Latin "statu quo" – literally "the state in which". If your first statement is literal, then the suggestions you made afterwards would defeat it. If the first statement was in the absurdest parody, then why suggest things that WotC did not actually do that would defeat it? I feel like the emotion of your statement is clear, but the logic is giving me a headache.

Suffice to say that I feel WotC's involvement in Eternal Magic (Legacy and Modern) in the last half decade makes it abundantly clear that they would prefer it to be 'healthy' whatever that happens to mean. They have also expressed a clear desire to 'clean up' the banned lists to reflect a perspective with (now) 2 decades of history.

Half a year ago I decided I won't support WotC/Hasbro anymore. It was like when you tear off the veil and may see clearly....Fuck this.

Yes, I'd play it in exactly those decks.

Bed Decks would play Abrupt Decay? But that was printed (counts internally...) 11 Months ago? So you support Hasbro/WotC up until February almost exactly?

Unless...

Guys! If they unban Vise, Bed Decks will take back everything he said and make up with WotCHasbro and be BFF's!

[Koby]

Because WotC cares about status quo. That's that they dropped the Restricted List, reprinted dual lands on a mass scale, and kept Survival of the Fittest unbanned.

Never did I state that WotC cares about the status quo. If we're going to have an intelligent and well reasoned arguments in this thread, then the proof that something is safe to unban must come from those trying to get it unbanned, not for those that are claiming it is too powerful to be unbanned.

It is like accusing that you stole from me, then demand that you show me how you didn't; which is absurd.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Bed Decks would play Abrupt Decay? But that was printed (counts internally...) 11 Months ago? So you support Hasbro/WotC up until February almost exactly?

Unless...

Guys! If they unban Vise, Bed Decks will take back everything he said and make up with WotCHasbro and be BFF's!

Sry dude, I don't have a smallest clue what's your post about. And I mean it literally - I simply don't understand it. Could you elucidate a bit? (If it's necessary...)

[FTW]

So if I get this right...

black vise will never be unbanned. Ever, ever never ever, and if you are to foolish to see why, you should probably just quit playing magic.

This is coming from the guy who thinks Oath "should probably be unbanned". You're not very good at this game, so try to avoid statements like this.

you start your turn at 14, then if you play a land and a brainstorm, which is probably the most common opening hand ever

T1 land, Brainstorm? No offense to apple, but looks like FieryBalrog was right.

/discussion

[catmint]

You want to discuss if apple is a bad player due to his statements? I think we should avoid evaluating each others skill like this. Such threads altough maybe entertaining surely cause bad kharma. :)

Also people (including myself) sometimes write nonsense, predict the meta wrong, exagerate or don't thing things through... that does not make them automatically bad players overall. measured by such a standard we would all suck.

[FTW]

You want to discuss if apple is a bad player due to his statements? I think we should avoid evaluating each others skill like this. Such threads altough maybe entertaining surely cause bad kharma. :)

Also people (including myself) sometimes write nonsense, predict the meta wrong, exagerate or don't thing things through... that does not make them automatically bad players overall. measured by such a standard we would all suck.

No, I was trying to end the (3rd?) discussion of Vise because there are really no new arguments surfacing.

I'm not saying apple is a bad player in general (hence "no offense apple"), just that it seems Fiery Balrog has won this particular debate. That quote shows he is clearly not always right about Magic, therefore making statements like "this is how it is. period" are invalid without providing adequate arguments.

The other argument made, conditional on a sol land and 2 Vices, is a low-probability opener and a low-probability deck build (what deck with Sol Lands wants Vices and not Chalice @ 1?), so is insufficient to warrant being too dangerous to unban. Broken opener is broken opener. Some decks can goldfish on turn 1. Meh.

And so /redundant Vise discussion

[(nameless one)]

Koby,

You guys should do an Everyday Eternal episode on which cards are safe to unban. Either pick top 5 or pick from each color + colorless.

[clavio]

just imagine a sol land deck that dropps 2 vises on their first turn. you start your turn at 14, then if you play a land and a brainstorm, which is probably the most common opening hand ever, you start your second turn at 10.

Wouldn't you be at eight?


I'd love to see vise unbanned because I <3 prison. I have no idea if it's safe or not, but it seems ok.

[apple713]

So if I get this right...
T1 land, Brainstorm? No offense to apple, but looks like FieryBalrog was right.
/discussion

Please don't take my words out of context, and if you are going to quote me, quote me correctly

"just imagine a sol land deck that dropps 2 vises on their first turn. you start your turn at 14, then if you play a land and a brainstorm, which is probably the most common opening hand ever, you start your second turn at 10. "

Assume you are not playing the deck with vises and you are on the draw. During your Upkeep you take 6, draw for the turn, have 8 cards in hand. Drop a land (7 cards in hand) cast brainstorm, (still 7 cards). During your next upkeep you are actually at 8...not ten....even worse

Also, with brainstorm being the most played card in the format, Around 64% of decks use it, i think its safe to say its probably the most common t1 play I see.

No, I was trying to end the (3rd?) discussion of Vise because there are really no new arguments surfacing.

I'm not saying apple is a bad player in general (hence "no offense apple"), just that it seems Fiery Balrog has won this particular debate. That quote shows he is clearly not always right about Magic, therefore making statements like "this is how it is. period" are invalid without providing adequate arguments.

The other argument made, conditional on a sol land and 2 Vices, is a low-probability opener and a low-probability deck build (what deck with Sol Lands wants Vices and not Chalice @ 1?), so is insufficient to warrant being too dangerous to unban. Broken opener is broken opener. Some decks can goldfish on turn 1. Meh.

And so /redundant Vise discussion

the sol land example was just a mediocre example, and not even best cast scenario. Best case scenario would be much better but less likely. There are many situations where black vise gets you ahead in the life count far to quickly for 1 colorless mana. Absolutly wrecks control decks. puts a clock on combo because they are trying to race it while digging.

IDC about it any more please move on to other cards....Didnt know there was that many previous discussions about this...there are 200+ pages that im not gonna preread

[Gheizen64]

Please don't take my words out of context, and if you are going to quote me, quote me correctly

"just imagine a sol land deck that dropps 2 vises on their first turn. you start your turn at 14, then if you play a land and a brainstorm, which is probably the most common opening hand ever, you start your second turn at 10. "

Assume you are not playing the deck with vises and you are on the draw. During your Upkeep you take 6, draw for the turn, have 8 cards in hand. Drop a land (7 cards in hand) cast brainstorm, (still 7 cards). During your next upkeep you are actually at 8...not ten....even worse

Also, with brainstorm being the most played card in the format, Around 64% of decks use it, i think its safe to say its probably the most common t1 play I see.




the sol land example was just a mediocre example, and not even best cast scenario. Best case scenario would be much better but less likely. There are many situations where black vise gets you ahead in the life count far to quickly for 1 colorless mana. Absolutly wrecks control decks. puts a clock on combo because they are trying to race it while digging.

IDC about it any more please move on to other cards....Didnt know there was that many previous discussions about this...there are 200+ pages that im not gonna preread

Dude no offense, but you didn't even understand why he quoted you on that. Playing Brainstorm T1 is almost always the wrong play, and there are two cases here:
- you play with really bad players overall who do one of the worst regarded play you could ever see, T1 brainstorm (that's probably worse than land bolt go)
or
- you don't actually play against legacy player and assume you'd want to play Brainstorm T1 because it's a 1 mana card. This is not a common play and i can think of no situations where T1 brainstorm is the correct play, unless i guess you are on the play and your opponent is going off on T1 and you really need that FoW.


What Black Vise do, Lava Spike do better, because that's how many average damage you'll get from it. 3 at best. Any Vise played past T1 is a dead draw and deal 0 damage. Every force on any T1 play make Vise useless for the rest of the game. An hypotetical card that said:

Visebolt R
Instant
Play this only first turn of the game
Deal 5 damage

would be terrible, and Vise is way worse in burn decks. Sol land-> 2x vise is also the worst possible play you make on a prison deck. T1 Chalice is autowin against a lot of decks, and you still don't see that because of consistency issues. Vise has far worse consistency issues.

Your examples also assume no counters, and no play for 2 consecutive turns. What kind of deck are you playing? You're just using extremely bad examples, and while doing so, also showing a pretty big inexperience in the format for someone that said "you should quit legacy if you don't understand why Vise should never ever be unbanned". Big statements require decent backup, not assertions about fantasy players that play T1 Brainstorm and say they actually play Legacy.

Your "i can't read 200 pages" also reeks of hypocrisy. Maybe before saying "no one should never ever say that Vise is safe to unban", you should've checked if someone actually said it? You know, in a topic about unbanning cards, by the way. There's a search function for a reason.

In short, you're making several wrong assumption, and i won't explain what those are because i don't want to degenerate the discussion into a personal argument. But please, next time, ponder more carefully what you're saying because no one here comes with the gift of omniscience and precognition, but we're here to discuss.

[Dice_Box]

I am starting to miss the talk about banning SnT.

[AEnesidem]

-snip-

Also, with brainstorm being the most played card in the format, Around 64% of decks use it, i think its safe to say its probably the most common t1 play I see.

If T1 brainstorm is the play you encounter most, your environment is either full of combo or you need to find yourself a new playgroup. T1 brainstorm is as horrible as it gets in most cases and making a play like that makes you deserve the loss. It's in no way a common play when you play on a decent level.

That is in no way an argument to keep vise banned.