[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[Modus Pwnens]

I managed to top4 "LQ4 + GPT Chile" at Mundo Kinoene yesterday with this list:
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Shambling Shell
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal

Sideboard:
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Reverent Silence
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
4 Mindbreak Trap


Went 4-1 in the swiss, most of my opponents had no idea how to face this deck, lol.
It went like this:
R1: Reanimator 0-2 (T2 Elesh Norn both games)
R2: UR Delver 2-0
R3: Shardless BUG? 2-0
R4: Deathblade? 2-0
R5: Jund 2-1 (lost g1 because of a Scavenging Ooze, which surprised me, since i had just killed a DRS the turn before)
Top8: Burn 2-0
Top4: Split

It was almost a goldfish all the way up into a top4 split, I also got R$200,00 + Brazillian National Legacy invitation for my troubles.
We splitted the prize pool, but i guess that was a mistake, since there were only favorable matchs ups in the top4 anyway.

I also didn't had to use my SB in any game, guess i could have gone with a 15 Islands SB plan instead, lol.

Btw, there was another Manaless Dredge in top4. (Griselbrand + Arbor version)

[Mr. Froggy]

I managed to top4 "LQ4 + GPT Chile" at Mundo Kinoene yesterday with this list:
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Shambling Shell
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal

Sideboard:
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Reverent Silence
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
4 Mindbreak Trap


Went 4-1 in the swiss, most of my opponents had no idea how to face this deck, lol.
It went like this:
R1: Reanimator 0-2 (T2 Elesh Norn both games)
R2: UR Delver 2-0
R3: Shardless BUG? 2-0
R4: Deathblade? 2-0
R5: Jund 2-1 (lost g1 because of a Scavenging Ooze, which surprised me, since i had just killed a DRS the turn before)
Top8: Burn 2-0
Top4: Split

It was almost a goldfish all the way up into a top4 split, I also got R$200,00 + Brazillian National Legacy invitation for my troubles.
We splitted the prize pool, but i guess that was a mistake, since there were only favorable matchs ups in the top4 anyway.

I also didn't had to use my SB in any game, guess i could have gone with a 15 Islands SB plan instead, lol.

Btw, there was another Manaless Dredge in top4. (Griselbrand + Arbor version)

Manaless is making a come-back!

Also, I really like your maindeck, looks a lot like mine.

[Fatal]

Good suggestion for all ppl playing Balustrade Spy -> replace it with Griselbrand - it has better body, its also black (feed Ichorids) and you don't lose to crop rotation/bojuka bog after it resolves since you can control how many cards you want to dredge (dredging 7 cards mean 7 x 5-6 - enough to kill)

[Modus Pwnens]

Good suggestion for all ppl playing Balustrade Spy -> replace it with Griselbrand - it has better body, its also black (feed Ichorids) and you don't lose to crop rotation/bojuka bog after it resolves since you can control how many cards you want to dredge (dredging 7 cards mean 7 x 5-6 - enough to kill)

Lol, that is not the case. Both can do the same thing, and they win games just as easily. Why would you DR spy if your opponent can wipe your graveyard at instant speed, anyway?

I switched to Spy because i wanted more answers to Deathrite Shaman game1. (Chancellor + Contagion) If deathrite decks weren't so dominant in my meta, i would just go back to Grisel+Dryad anyway. (Dryad is better vs Thalia decks)

[Michael Keller]

Lol, that is not the case. Both can do the same thing, and they win games just as easily. Why would you DR spy if your opponent can wipe your graveyard at instant speed, anyway?

I switched to Spy because i wanted more answers to Deathrite Shaman game1. (Chancellor + Contagion) If deathrite decks weren't so dominant in my meta, i would just go back to Grisel+Dryad anyway. (Dryad is better vs Thalia decks)

With Phantasmagorian, Contagion and Street Wraith, how many more slots realistically should one commit to a single creature? You have a far better chance of beating a turn-one Deathrite Shaman than they have of sticking one without an answer.

I'm actually in the process of switching over to the Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast package, with a sideboard that compliments the Salvages with Riftstone Portal, Undiscovered Paradise and slight anti-hate. I'm finding that the Dryad Arbors, while still useful, are susceptible to removal - which is a really bad hindrance with their post-board utility. Salvage allows for the return of at least one other body from the graveyard, which in turn enables Dread Return like the Arbors do. You can't tap an Arbor for mana the turn it comes into play, much like you can't tap a Salvage the turn it comes into play either. The only difference here is that Reverent Silence can work with Arbors and Salvage can't. Arbors are still bodies for Nether Shadow shenanigans, but the Bloodghasts fill that gap nicely.

I do know that my previous sideboard ran two fetches and a basic land, but I'm not really sure that's necessary at this point. In a build that maxes out on anti-hate in the board I can see that utility. However, I'm looking at a more redundant approach out of the board that can happily fight through hate as a bonus - not as a commitment.

The biggest difference here is access to green mana for the sideboard. This is a hot topic between Manaless players because some feel as though it is unnecessary to jam cards into a sideboard to fight certain hate cards like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. I've been testing Portals incessantly and have found they're actually more useful than originally imagined. Not only do they help turn on your anti-hate, they also become more reliable in the first few turns when you're realistically going to be dredging once or twice and hitting one to turn on your Salvages as faux-Savannahs.

The point is you're playing your game as you normally would with the nice bonus of naturally turning over green mana with dredges as opposed to being forced to open with a combination of cards and the inability to mulligan.

I'm being really careful what I say here, because I don't want anyone to think this is the absolute way to go; I'm simply trying something different that I'm finding some really good results with. I think the shift may be worth looking at more closely.

[Thrasher]

I don't understand the purpose of Rifstone Portal. Is it supposed to help you casting your anti-hate? It would be useless against rip or leyline.

I don't mind Dryad being susceptible to removal, i often play it right before sacrificing it to something, so that my opponent doesn't get the priority before me. And by the way, most opponents use swords to plowshares on ichorids/shadows at the end of draw step, they usually won't have more. Still, the bloodghast package might have it pro's, i think i might try it again before dismissing it completely. It just seemed kinda slow, the first time i have tried it.

Has anyone tried cutting Contagion/Shoal? I'm currently trying a build that does it, and it's working surprisingly well. Chancellor of the Annex maindeck semms a more flexible answer to DRS, a dredge usually is enough to get phantasmagorian in the grave and ignore the shaman. I have a big event in less than a month, so i am trying to build something as flexible as possible, and i don't like contagion being dead against miracles,tendrils,Omnitell and ,well, most combo decks. I might find one or two slots for contagion in the sideboard.

About the sideboard: I have cut the single forest, i'm playing with 4 arbors maindeck + 2 misty rainforest sb. I just couldn't remove enought stuff to bring in 4 Unmask, 4 Silence, 2 misty rainforest and 1 forest. Even without the forest it's kinda hard to choose properly what to cut for g2, but i like having 8 answers to rip post board. 4 Seems just too random.

[Modus Pwnens]

With Phantasmagorian, Contagion and Street Wraith, how many more slots realistically should one commit to a single creature? You have a far better chance of beating a turn-one Deathrite Shaman than they have of sticking one without an answer.

I understand your point, but sometimes you just don't draw the godlike hand with Gorian and multiple wraiths.
Sometimes a Shaman can be hard to deal with, if he is coupled with tarmogoyf/Spellbomb/relic/Surgical/removal. A single shaman can nullify your dread returns, and eat your ichorids while your opponent uses AbruptDecay/Bolt/PunishingFire/Liliana to destroy our bridges, and possibly beat our face with goyf.
Its also hard to recover from a wiped graveyard if they have a shaman online.

Those kind of situations happens a lot over here, that is why I went the chancellor+contagion route.

I'm actually in the process of switching over to the Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast package, with a sideboard that compliments the Salvages with Riftstone Portal, Undiscovered Paradise and slight anti-hate. I'm finding that the Dryad Arbors, while still useful, are susceptible to removal - which is a really bad hindrance with their post-board utility. Salvage allows for the return of at least one other body from the graveyard, which in turn enables Dread Return like the Arbors do. You can't tap an Arbor for mana the turn it comes into play, much like you can't tap a Salvage the turn it comes into play either. The only difference here is that Reverent Silence can work with Arbors and Salvage can't. Arbors are still bodies for Nether Shadow shenanigans, but the Bloodghasts fill that gap nicely.

I do know that my previous sideboard ran two fetches and a basic land, but I'm not really sure that's necessary at this point. In a build that maxes out on anti-hate in the board I can see that utility. However, I'm looking at a more redundant approach out of the board that can happily fight through hate as a bonus - not as a commitment.

The biggest difference here is access to green mana for the sideboard. This is a hot topic between Manaless players because some feel as though it is unnecessary to jam cards into a sideboard to fight certain hate cards like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. I've been testing Portals incessantly and have found they're actually more useful than originally imagined. Not only do they help turn on your anti-hate, they also become more reliable in the first few turns when you're realistically going to be dredging once or twice and hitting one to turn on your Salvages as faux-Savannahs.

The point is you're playing your game as you normally would with the nice bonus of naturally turning over green mana with dredges as opposed to being forced to open with a combination of cards and the inability to mulligan.

I'm being really careful what I say here, because I don't want anyone to think this is the absolute way to go; I'm simply trying something different that I'm finding some really good results with. I think the shift may be worth looking at more closely.

Well, that is interesting!
I assume the antihate of choice would be Ancient Grudge/Ray of Revelation? Rip/Cage/Leyline would still be a problem, because they turn off your riftstone portal.

[Michael Keller]

Riftstone Portal is more of a gimmick effort at this point than anything else, however I still feel it has its merits in a deck that cannot afford to mulligan. The point behind it is that no matter what happens, if an opponent drops a Rest in Peace you can respond to the trigger by destroying it with a Ray of Revelation or something similar. If you take a close look at the format right now, we're seeing less and less of Show and Tell and more and more of fair aggro decks using Young Pyromancer and Shardless BUG. Pyromancer is obviously a relatively simple match-up, as we're all but devoid of any interaction, but BUG - while still popular - is in my mind on a downtrend. Greedy manabases like that cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars to assemble, which is why we're seeing decks packing Blood Moon knock them out on their way to Top Eight finishes.

It's no fluke Imperial Painter made it twice(!) as far as it did, which leads me to believe we could be in for a renaissance with this archetype once again. I don't want to jump the gun, but it certainly seems possible. That all aside, I am definitely on the fence at this point with Dryad Arbors main. I love them and think they're incredibly good, but I also think at the same time we could be utilizing those slots for more redundancy in Bloodghasts and Dakmor Salvages. Three Salvages with a potential cut of a single Shambling Shell brings the deck up to seventeen dredgers (4/4/4/3/2) - which I really like.

I do really think though that a deck sporting a set of Bloodghasts should at least somehow be abusing Undiscovered Paradise's return-to-hand effect. It's not only great for sideboarding, but it can double-up as card advantage with Bloodghasts. There's also a hidden, yet critical aspect behind its utility: upon bringing it back to one's hand it could benefit the Manaless player with the Draw/Dredge bringing you back up to eight cards faster.

To me, that seems really good. Again, let's stir the pot and get the creative juices flowing again.

[aahz]

Again, let's stir the pot and get the creative juices flowing again.

What about lands like Maze of Ith and Diamond Valley/Phyrexian Tower/High Market out of the board? Maze can deal with some problem creatures and Valley allows for timing shenanigans in zombie production and combat tricks vs. creature decks to protect Bridges. I've had opponents side out Wastelands, so functional lands out of the board seems promising, at least in theory. Thoughts?

I find Manaless Dredge fascinating, though I only play it rarely and mostly just for the lulz. Most of my technical Dredge experience comes from Vintage, which is why I prefer Manaless (over the LED version) in Legacy. Except in Legacy you don't have to brave a field where half the decks pack 4xLeyline of Void in the side, so actually playing manaless is viable. Don't take my list too seriously (which is hopefully pretty obvious, I mean, look at that ridiculous sideboard). However, I did manage to take it to the Top 8 of a recent event (see here for decklist).

[ahg113]

So, something with Dakmor and Bloodghast...

Something like?


4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Chancellor of the Annex
SB: 3 Forest
SB: 4 Reverent Silence
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Dryad Arbor


Anything with lands involves Griz instead of Balustrade Spy. I like it in principle, but I get jammed, I'd like to add another Flayer, couldn't find space at all for Undiscovered Paradise nor Riftstone Portal. U. Paradise doesn't make sense if it ends up in the yard. Riftstone Portal just seems a little gimmicky. Maybe in the SB, replace Forest, keep Arbor?

Mindbreak Trap vs. Nature's Claim is a Metagame call in my opinion.

[Michael Keller]

Anything with lands involves Griz instead of Balustrade Spy. I like it in principle, but I get jammed, I'd like to add another Flayer, couldn't find space at all for Undiscovered Paradise nor Riftstone Portal. U. Paradise doesn't make sense if it ends up in the yard.

Right, but by that logic Verdant Catacombs, Forest, Contagion, Reverent Silence and Nature's Claims don't make any sense when they hit the yard either. I'm weighing in-hand utility.

I like the list but am currently not 100% sold on Chancellor main.

[ahg113]

Right, but by that logic Verdant Catacombs, Forest, Contagion, Reverent Silence and Nature's Claims don't make any sense when they hit the yard either. I'm weighing in-hand utility.

I like the list but am currently not 100% sold on Chancellor main.

Yes and no, hitting a land with Spy is a lot worst than actually drawing cards with Griz or your draw step. The deck doesn't mulligan, so we're all used to sticking with the opening seven adn going from there, maybe unless it's four Nacros and three Ickys.

Have a list that makes sense, feel free to PM so not to put it on blast, I'll test it, cause I want it to work.

[Michael Keller]

Yes and no, hitting a land with Spy is a lot worst than actually drawing cards with Griz or your draw step. The deck doesn't mulligan, so we're all used to sticking with the opening seven adn going from there, maybe unless it's four Nacros and three Ickys.

Have a list that makes sense, feel free to PM so not to put it on blast, I'll test it, cause I want it to work.

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not talking about Spy lists, I'm referring to non-Spy lists. I've got a list I'm going to play next week in a big tournament, I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[Modus Pwnens]

A few things to take note:
-Surgical Extraction can 7 for 1 us, if they hit Dakmor Salvage
-Deathrite Shaman can also eat our Dakmors, turning off Bloodghasts
-I would add another DR if you are going the Chancellor route, sometimes they can win games on their own. (If you happen to not find a Grisel to do the job)
-Dakmor + Riftstone portal/Undiscovered Paradise + Ray of Revelation seems to be a more viable SB option than the full Reverent Silence Package(11 Slots).

Some random, and certainly bad, ideas:
Edge of Autumn could be used to recurr dead bloodghasts with the same land, and can take advantage of Dakmor Salvage to act as a pseudo-StreetWraith, its probably too narrow, tho.
Petrified Field could be used in SB in conjunction with Utility Lands like Bojuka Bog, etc


Edit:
This MD might work better with Bloodghasts, and it also frees up some SB slots:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Dryad Arbor

[ahg113]

This MD might work better with Bloodghasts, and it also frees up some SB slots:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Dryad Arbor

Good catch on the Salvage S.E interaction. That's all sorts of frown town.

The only thing I'm not wild about, is the lack of either removal or Chancellor. I feel as though either or should be in the deck for game 1, way too many DRS running around to just hope not to play against one. Make sense or am I just not ballsy enough?

Otherwise I like this deck config. What are you thinking for a SB?

[dunk]

It's no fluke Imperial Painter made it twice(!) as far as it did, which leads me to believe we could be in for a renaissance with this archetype once again. I don't want to jump the gun, but it certainly seems possible.

I definitely agree, the deck seems to be well positioned right now. Sure, Deathrite is everywhere, but the deck can handle a deathrite pretty well. There's usually too much to remove ;) The deck is probably better than Dredge with lands in the current metagame. Also, Phantasmagorian is such a beast. I look forward to see the deck in a SCG or similar t8 soon!

[Final Fortune]

Riftstone Portal is more of a gimmick effort at this point than anything else, however I still feel it has its merits in a deck that cannot afford to mulligan. The point behind it is that no matter what happens, if an opponent drops a Rest in Peace you can respond to the trigger by destroying it with a Ray of Revelation or something similar. If you take a close look at the format right now, we're seeing less and less of Show and Tell and more and more of fair aggro decks using Young Pyromancer and Shardless BUG. Pyromancer is obviously a relatively simple match-up, as we're all but devoid of any interaction, but BUG - while still popular - is in my mind on a downtrend. Greedy manabases like that cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars to assemble, which is why we're seeing decks packing Blood Moon knock them out on their way to Top Eight finishes.

It's no fluke Imperial Painter made it twice(!) as far as it did, which leads me to believe we could be in for a renaissance with this archetype once again. I don't want to jump the gun, but it certainly seems possible. That all aside, I am definitely on the fence at this point with Dryad Arbors main. I love them and think they're incredibly good, but I also think at the same time we could be utilizing those slots for more redundancy in Bloodghasts and Dakmor Salvages. Three Salvages with a potential cut of a single Shambling Shell brings the deck up to seventeen dredgers (4/4/4/3/2) - which I really like.

I do really think though that a deck sporting a set of Bloodghasts should at least somehow be abusing Undiscovered Paradise's return-to-hand effect. It's not only great for sideboarding, but it can double-up as card advantage with Bloodghasts. There's also a hidden, yet critical aspect behind its utility: upon bringing it back to one's hand it could benefit the Manaless player with the Draw/Dredge bringing you back up to eight cards faster.

To me, that seems really good. Again, let's stir the pot and get the creative juices flowing again.

I've tried Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghasts in the past, I don't think Dredge 2 or returning an extra creature(s) is any more effective than just playing a Bauble list where in reality all you're really doing is trying to speed up the number of bodies you can put on the board for Dread Return, Griselbrand and GG. It does have the advantage of being more resilient to certain kinds of hate, but Tormod's Crypt seems to be a rarity these days. I think that kind of density is more effective as a SBing plan for when you do see one shot hate.

Probe is like insanely good, why do you never play that card?

[Michael Keller]

I've tried Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghasts in the past, I don't think Dredge 2 or returning an extra creature(s) is any more effective than just playing a Bauble list where in reality all you're really doing is trying to speed up the number of bodies you can put on the board for Dread Return, Griselbrand and GG. It does have the advantage of being more resilient to certain kinds of hate, but Tormod's Crypt seems to be a rarity these days. I think that kind of density is more effective as a SBing plan for when you do see one shot hate.

Probe is like insanely good, why do you never play that card?

Just picked up my Jap foil set...I'm definitely trying it out.

[sconnell]

Probe is like insanely good, why do you never play that card?

Probe is amazing when it's good, but it has some significant downsides. It's horrible if it gets counterspelled (you end up going -1 hand size and can't discard.) Playing Probe means you're not playing another dredger/utility card in that slot.

[Michael Keller]

I really think Gitaxian Probe is highly underrated in this deck. I used to play it in the deck's competitive infancy, and it was good when it worked. The issue I have with it is that for so many of the upsides to it, there are still the downsides of it being a completely useless card outside of your opening hand. I'm not mocking its utility, because I know how powerful it is, it's just that some cards when they cannot possibly be used from your hand still find corner-case utility, which I really like.

Take for example Bloodghasts. An earlier poster discussed how Bloodghasts would become effectively useless if someone decided to Surgical Extraction Dakmor Salvages from your deck. Bloodghasts can still be exiled to satisfy Ichorid in that instance. Additionally, if we were to go the Balustrade Spy route (which I like, too) and you choose to run a main-deck Blightsteel Colossus, you get some game against the stock-now-rising in Painter-Grindstone combo. It even gives you some more game against Show and Tell variants.

Even if you chose to run Chancellor of the Annex, he's still a decent Dread Return target.

Probe, on the other hand, is strictly only good from the opening hand and nowhere else. Every other card in the deck has at least some sort of utility outside of its natural use save for maybe Contagion, which is useless aside from your opening hand (but critical against Shaman).

Again, I see the upside of Probe and I'll give it a shot again. I just don't know if in the wide array of tools this deck uses that it's head and shoulders above other options.