[Primer] Elves!

[Lemnear]

Ooze is a far less narrow card in several matchups. You can't advocate for D.Militant if the only matchups it has any application is against ANT and Snapcaster.dec while each other combo deck, including, TES laughs about it.

I found RUG Delver with Forked Bolt insanly hard to beat without going nuts turn 2 or 3 (on the play), tbh.

Having your initial High Tides potentially taxed sets the deck back for turns.

[trevaftw]

Ooze is a far less narrow card in several matchups. You can't advocate for D.Militant if the only matchups it has any application is against ANT and Snapcaster.dec while each other combo deck, including, TES laughs about it.

I guess I prefer more narrow dedicated stuff than more generic less specific hate.

I found RUG Delver with Forked Bolt insanly hard to beat without going nuts turn 2 or 3 (on the play), tbh.

We have more creatures than they have burn. We have more Glimpse/NO/GSZ than they do counter. It takes time, I'll admit, but the matchup has gotten significantly easier for me to play over time.

Having your initial High Tides potentially taxed sets the deck back for turns.

High tide is a combo deck that doesn't go off early but rather wait for the late game. Having to wait is irrelevant to them.

[Absolutflipz]

I see the value gained from Ooze, but I don't think it's a necessary card. People talk about bringing it in against RUG and tbqh if you're losing that match up you're not playing it right. I've never had trouble with it. With respect to Ooze and dredge it is too slow against the deck and being able to crop rotate into bojuka bog or having the ability to play dryad militant against it has been super beneficial for me. Also add in that dryad militant is great against High Tide because it makes their time spirals significantly worse because all of their spells they played before it don't get recycled. MBT also is useful here since they have easy access to bounce via cunning wish. Also, I do know that thalia/thorn aginst high tide is fairly meh since they can go off through it easily where as making them force a MBT AND pitch another card gain be a pretty big setback.

I will try testing thalia's this week against my ANT player this week, though.

Kinda blown away here.

Ooze is an absolute all-star in several matchups, and I have no idea why you don't need him against RUG in particular. And Ooze/Deathrite are both definitely not too slow against Dredge by any means. Of course there will be games where you get T2'ed, but he's plenty relevant in any game where they dont just go off on t2 and much better to have in the deck than many other cards that have literally no impact.

Very confused here, too.

Dryad Militant...? Now, that's narrow...and not powerful
Relying on a 1-of Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog? see above

Thalia/Thorn, in addition to being much better against Storm, also helps in many other matchups.

You should look for high-impact sideboard cards that have multiple applications...especially in Legacy.

[Koby]

I guess I prefer more narrow dedicated stuff than more generic less specific hate.



We have more creatures than they have burn. We have more Glimpse/NO/GSZ than they do counter. It takes time, I'll admit, but the matchup has gotten significantly easier for me to play over time.



High tide is a combo deck that doesn't go off early but rather wait for the late game. Having to wait is irrelevant to them.

I wish I had your luck with the deck. I'd be so much richer from winning all the time.

[trevaftw]

Ooze is an absolute all-star in several matchups, and I have no idea why you don't need him against RUG in particular.

Wirewood Symbiote is a card you know. Oh you have a 4/5 goyf? Block and bounce. Oh you killed the symbiote instead of an elf? NBD, means I can combo off next turn because you didn't kill heritage druid.

And Ooze/Deathrite are both definitely not too slow against Dredge by any means. Of course there will be games where you get T2'ed, but he's plenty relevant in any game where they dont just go off on t2 and much better to have in the deck than many other cards that have literally no impact.

I never said DRS was too slow.
Dredge wins game one. Game 2 you start and you get Ooza out turn two and have maybe one or two mana open to eat something of his. you get a turn 3 and possibly go off or not play anything to keep a fair amount of mana open to eat stuff while he still has potential to just overrun it. Game 3 you still get Ooze turn 2 but he gets turn 3 first and wins. I'd rather only need to keep one mana open (ala crop rotation) or play a creature turn one (dryad militant/DRS) and not worry about anything and just go for the win.

Dryad Militant...? Now, that's narrow...and not powerful
Relying on a 1-of Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog? see above

They're narrow but powerful. I also have 2 crop rotation which gives me 3 effective copies of bojuka bog.

[Absolutflipz]

Wirewood Symbiote is a card you know. Oh you have a 4/5 goyf? Block and bounce. Oh you killed the symbiote instead of an elf? NBD, means I can combo off next turn because you didn't kill heritage druid.



I never said DRS was too slow.
Dredge wins game one. Game 2 you start and you get Ooza out turn two and have maybe one or two mana open to eat something of his. you get a turn 3 and possibly go off or not play anything to keep a fair amount of mana open to eat stuff while he still has potential to just overrun it. Game 3 you still get Ooze turn 2 but he gets turn 3 first and wins. I'd rather only need to keep one mana open (ala crop rotation) or play a creature turn one (dryad militant/DRS) and not worry about anything and just go for the win.




They're narrow but powerful. I also have 2 crop rotation which gives me 3 effective copies of bojuka bog.

I give up

[nudon]

I also have 2 crop rotation which gives me 3 effective copies of bojuka bog.

2 crop rotations and you never lose to RUG? I'd love to play against some of your opponents...

Just curious, how do you guys usually board against dredge?

[trevaftw]

I give up

Look man, I get that you're trying to say why you think I'm wrong, but you can't just make blanket generic statements and not back them up. I'm giving reasons and support examples and you're just saying I'm flustered that you think this and then don't do say anything to say why you're point of view is better.

[Koby]

2 crop rotations and you never lose to RUG? I'd love to play against some of your opponents...

Just curious, how do you guys usually board against dredge?

Here's what I did at the Deals event vs Joseph:

+2 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Thalia
-1 Viridian Shaman
-1 Craterhoof?
-1 Quirion Ranger? (don't have as much time to durdle, need to go off ASAP)

Heritage Druid is hyper important in this matchup. Perhaps -1 Elvish Visionary instead of Quirion.

[Koby]

Look man, I get that you're trying to say why you think I'm wrong, but you can't just make blanket generic statements and not back them up. I'm giving reasons and support examples and you're just saying I'm flustered that you think this and then don't do say anything to say why you're point of view is better.

There are certainly games when RUG has a weak draw, or all creatures and can't interact with Elves as much. I enjoy those games just as much as anyone in this thread does. Then, there are games that go like this:

T1: Delver, Daze your elf.
T2: Flip Delver, Volc -> Bolt you guy. EOT, Submerge your other guy in response to fetchland.
T3: Goyf.
T4: Rough. Game.

[igri_is_a_bk]

That's pretty much what I do.
-1 Hoof, -1 V. Shaman, -1 Visionary, -1 Arbor
+2 Ooze, +1 Thalia, +1 Thorn

Honestly when I played Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog, I was really impressed with it against Dredge. One MU wasn't enough to keep it around though.

[danyul]

LOL I actually lose to RUG more often than I lose to Miracles.

I beat Miracles somewhat often simply because they have to dig for answers. RUG is just all answers. The matchup is not fun. They also have Rough/Tumble postboard. PLZ tell me your secrets.

[Absolutflipz]

2 crop rotations and you never lose to RUG? I'd love to play against some of your opponents...

Just curious, how do you guys usually board against dredge?

I've been conflicted here before and I'm not sure I have it all the way correct.

My maindeck has 1 Scavenging Ooze.

Side is:
4x Therapy
2x Thorn
1x Thalia
1x Ooze
2x Choke
1x Progenitus
2x Decay
1x Teeg
1x Viridian Shaman

I've boarded various ways in the past, and I think I would go with something like:

-1 Craterhoof (assuming 2 main), -1 Visionary, -1 Symbiote, -1 Quirion, -1 Birchlore

+1 Ooze, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg

Thalia/Thorns is quite the hoser against them given many times a Dredge opponent will be on 1 mana or a diminishing gemstone mine and a Cephalid Col. The additional 1 really prevents/slows down flashing back of stuff like Therapy, Looting, Dread Return, and sideboard cards like Firestorm.

There is obviously tension here as it can slow down your combo plan, but I've found the disruption buys you plenty of time and this is also a matchup where your Cradles are always going to be safe (and to a lesser, but still large extent, your mana guys) and you will be able to produce mana over top of the Thorn.

The main talking point to me is the Teeg. Is Teeg worth it to shut off mainly Dread Return and to a much lesser extent Breakthrough...while possibly hosing your own GSZ and NO? If not, probably keep in the 1 Birchlore.

[Lemnear]

I have no fucking clue how you beat Lightning Bolt/Forked Bolt/Rough while your NO is kept in check with FoW/Pierce

[Koby]

I do'nt think Teeg is worth boarding in. It only shuts down Dread Return, which if it's occurring a lot of things had to go wrong including a really fast start. The best goal is to get Scavenging Ooze online ASAP and hopefully with some mana to start eating the graveyard right away. I think in this respect, you want Birchlore Rangers in as well to help pump out as much mana as possible.

[igri_is_a_bk]

The main talking point to me is the Teeg. Is Teeg worth it to shut off mainly Dread Return and to a much lesser extent Breakthrough...while possibly hosing your own GSZ and NO? If not, probably keep in 1 Birchlore.

That's completely dependent on their dredge build. If they're on quadlazer without DR, then no Teeg is necessary. I don't think hating on Breakthrough is worth shutting off your best way to win. They still have Study, Looting and Coliseum to sidestep Teeg.

[trevaftw]

2 crop rotations and you never lose to RUG? I'd love to play against some of your opponents...

I take them out.

Just curious, how do you guys usually board against dredge?

+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Dryad Militant
+1 Bojuka Bog

-1 Wirewod
-1 Visionary
-1 Archdruid

There are certainly games when RUG has a weak draw, or all creatures and can't interact with Elves as much. I enjoy those games just as much as anyone in this thread does. Then, there are games that go like this:

T1: Delver, Daze your elf.
T2: Flip Delver, Volc -> Bolt you guy. EOT, Submerge your other guy in response to fetchland.
T3: Goyf.
T4: Rough. Game.

And that's variance. I've had that happen to me, and I've played games where they had no daze/stifle or couldn't find a threat. They get the nut, we get the nut.

Honestly when I played Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog, I was really impressed with it against Dredge. One MU wasn't enough to keep it around though.

When I get two more cradle they're replacing the crop rotations.

[Dice_Box]

Reread everything twice and I am still lost about what is going on here. Are we really hearing that not bringing in Ooze against the deck that mains Burn and Goyf is a plan or am I just confused? This is not sarcasm. I am really really lost right now.

[Absolutflipz]

Look man, I get that you're trying to say why you think I'm wrong, but you can't just make blanket generic statements and not back them up. I'm giving reasons and support examples and you're just saying I'm flustered that you think this and then don't do say anything to say why you're point of view is better.

It's mainly because we are so far off and I feel most of this stuff is very easily understood if you've been playing/having an understanding of the deck and its match-ups.

But, here are more specific reasons.


Scavenging Ooze vs RUG -- this matchup is very attrition based and quite the race. Also, Rough/Tumble is a huge card. They play lots of burn and removal.

Ooze does -- grows out of range of Bolt/all of their removal, gains life to win said race, lives through a Rough/Tumble with a single activation, gives you a huge threat on offense and defense (untap with ranger/symbiote) that they lose to unless they hit a temporary answer in Submerge, eats their GY to keep Mongoose off threshold, Goyf smaller. I didn't go into such specifics as if you had ever actually played this match with some number of Scavenging Oozes you would have abundantly realized how important and amazing he is against RUG.

Against other deck: Jund Punishing fire -- eats Punishing Fire in the yard while providing a threat that doesnt die to it, Goyf gy applications, etc..

Dredge/Reanimator - GY removal

Dodges Engineered Plauge

Provides a big threat after a board wipe (one of our weaknesses)

I'm sure I'm missing points, but you get the idea.

Dryad Militant is NOT powerful as you say it is. It's a 1 mana 2/1 that has very narrow applications. Narrow does not equal powerful here, either. The card is extremely underwhelming.

Relying on a 2-of crop rotation into a Bojuka Bog doesnt give you much consistency vs having a 6-8-of (ie 4 deathrite + 4 GSZ or 2 Ooze + 4 GSZ). Further, Crop Rotation is horrible against Daze/Spell Pierce decks.

Thalia/Thorns are incredibly effective against many decks and are high impact cards that belong in the sideboard. You only get 15 slots, make them count and have cross-applicability.

[Absolutflipz]

I do'nt think Teeg is worth boarding in. It only shuts down Dread Return, which if it's occurring a lot of things had to go wrong including a really fast start. The best goal is to get Scavenging Ooze online ASAP and hopefully with some mana to start eating the graveyard right away. I think in this respect, you want Birchlore Rangers in as well to help pump out as much mana as possible.

Yeah, that's my inclination, too. Just good to hear it from another person and confirmed that I would put the Birchlore back in for the same reason, ie to be faster.