All B/R update speculation.

[DragoFireheart]

Never did I state that WotC cares about the status quo.

Exactly.

And those are the only people worth considering about who cares about what. If WotC doesn't care, then it doesn't matter what the status quo thinks.

[Barook]

T1 Brainstorm is pretty bad, but T1 cantrip like Ponder or Preordain isn't that uncommon, especially in combo decks. And in those cases, you would keep 7 cards in hand for the next upkeep - just saying, without commenting whether Black Vise is safe or not.

[Ellomdian]

Koby,

You guys should do an Everyday Eternal episode on which cards are safe to unban. Either pick top 5 or pick from each color + colorless.

Is Balance really the only "unbannable" white card on the list? Sickness...
Mana Drain. Because... Counterspell?
Imperial Seal. Already discussed the up's and down's.
Worldgorger Dragon. Because Recruiter is TOO STRONK! (And who really cares about reanimator? Those guys smell funny...)
Earthcraft. I like squirrels. I just don't think it's stronger than say, Alluren.
Vise. Because if I pointed out that Mana Vault is dark ritual that produces colorless at the same card cost, I would be crucified.

I am starting to miss the talk about banning SnT.

Ban SnT - So I don't have to buy 4 for the damn invitational. F*$%& Mono-U Clash...

[Koby]

Koby,

You guys should do an Everyday Eternal episode on which cards are safe to unban. Either pick top 5 or pick from each color + colorless.

There are only two cards safe to unban:
Mind Twist
Earthcraft

Eliminating Ante and Dexterity cards, then P9; we need highly compelling and well reasoned arguments for why a card should be unbanned.

I could potentially see Frantic Search unbanned, but it would only fuel unfair blue strategies at the expense of the format. Not a good call in that respect.

Exactly.

And those are the only people worth considering about who cares about what. If WotC doesn't care, then it doesn't matter what the status quo thinks.

Uh... what is your argument? WotC has shown they don't analyze Eternal formats for what should be done. Instead, they listen to the loud voices to gauge what should be done. If we can't come up with those arguments, then neither will WotC. You're discounting a lot of our opinions for opinions WotC doesn't even know they hold. It's not as if we're playing WotC's Legacy format. We're playing our own format and letting WotC sanction it. We are a huge thorn in WotC's side.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

You want to discuss if apple is a bad player due to his statements? I think we should avoid evaluating each others skill like this. Such threads altough maybe entertaining surely cause bad kharma. :)

Also people (including myself) sometimes write nonsense, predict the meta wrong, exagerate or don't thing things through... that does not make them automatically bad players overall. measured by such a standard we would all suck.

Pardon! I'm THE bad player! Look, my nick says it, and I even spelled it bed!

T1 Brainstorm is bed!

Just a small note: I once played some wannabe-pro in our lgs, a really that kind of pompous adolescent/man-in-his-early-twenties who knows everything and speaks fluently the MtG jargon. I played a T1 BS which was followed by his rant how bad play it is and how bad player I am and how this and that and how some dude I don't know who writes for a site I don't care about explained in an article I won't read how T1 BS is bed, bed idea.
Needless to say, I won turn1 with PiF. And since then I made a habit of asking the guy in response to his loss if he has lost because he played turn1 BS.
Not that T1 BS ain't bad play, just...

There are only two cards safe to unban:
Mind Twist
Earthcraft

...

I could potentially see Frantic Search unbanned, but it would only fuel unfair blue strategies at the expense of the format. Not a good call in that respect.

Hm. Sounds good.
But I still gonna hoard Frantic Searches just in case...

[apple713]

unless im missing something, minds desire seems ok to unban. it doesn't seem like it would yield more wins or any better consistency than tendrils. I didn't play with it when it was legal so its possible im missing something.

if memory jar was not one sided it would probably be ok to unban but since your opponent never really gets to reap the rewards its "unfair".

If wheel of fortune was not splashable and was RRR instead of 2R then it would probably be an ok card.

Gush seems too slow to cast and if not cast it sets you back too many turns from land drops. It is Loosly comparable to thoughtcast.

[rufus]

unless im missing something, minds desire seems ok to unban. it doesn't seem like it would yield more wins or any better consistency than tendrils. I didn't play with it when it was legal so its possible im missing something.

if memory jar was not one sided it would probably be ok to unban but since your opponent never really gets to reap the rewards its "unfair".

If wheel of fortune was not splashable and was RRR instead of 2R then it would probably be an ok card.

Gush seems too slow to cast and if not cast it sets you back too many turns from land drops. It is Loosly comparable to thoughtcast.

I tend to think that Mind's Desire and Yawgmoth's Bargain relatively strong contenders for unban after Mind Twist and Earthcraft, after that, it gets a little stickier.

Wheel of Fortune for is still gross. It doesn't take that much imagination to put together a mono red deck that is more likely than not to either storm out or put together a lethal Molten Psyche.

The really twisted lines of play for Gush are things like using it as an 'untap' on turn 3 in some kind of combo/control deck, or in response to a Wasteland activation. Control-type stuff with Land Tax would probably also be obnoxious.

[Gheizen64]

unless im missing something, minds desire seems ok to unban. it doesn't seem like it would yield more wins or any better consistency than tendrils. I didn't play with it when it was legal so its possible im missing something.

if memory jar was not one sided it would probably be ok to unban but since your opponent never really gets to reap the rewards its "unfair".

If wheel of fortune was not splashable and was RRR instead of 2R then it would probably be an ok card.

Gush seems too slow to cast and if not cast it sets you back too many turns from land drops. It is Loosly comparable to thoughtcast.

Gush 0
Instant
Awesome (this card can be pitched to force of Will and you can use islands... not really since it cost 0 but whatever)
When you play gush, add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool.
Counter target wasteland activation
Draw 2 cards.
"How awesome am i?"

[Koby]

Gush 0
Instant
Awesome (this card can be pitched to force of Will and you can use islands... not really since it cost 0 but whatever)
When you play gush, add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool.
Counter target wasteland activation
Draw 2 cards, then proceed to Storm 10.
"How awesome am i?"

ftfy

[Lemnear]

gush 0
instant
awesome (this card can be pitched to force of will and you can use islands... Not really since it cost 0 but whatever)
when you play gush, add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool.
Counter target wasteland activation
draw 2 cards.
"how awesome am i?"

qft

[Megadeus]

Balance unbanned? Chirst no that would be far far worse than most other cards on this list like mind twist. I think Nedleeds said it, that it would send creature strategies back to the stone ages

[dontbiteitholmes]

Uh... what is your argument? WotC has shown they don't analyze Eternal formats for what should be done. Instead, they listen to the loud voices to gauge what should be done. If we can't come up with those arguments, then neither will WotC. You're discounting a lot of our opinions for opinions WotC doesn't even know they hold. It's not as if we're playing WotC's Legacy format. We're playing our own format and letting WotC sanction it. We are a huge thorn in WotC's side.

WotC has actually shown they are very conservative with banning cards which is a good thing. I think they have done a much better job at maintaining the Legacy banned list than anyone will give them credit for.

[lordofthepit]

WotC has actually shown they are very conservative with banning cards which is a good thing. I think they have done a much better job at maintaining the Legacy banned list than anyone will give them credit for.

Agreed. I haven't agreed with every single WotC decision with regards to B&R (basically, banning Mystical Tutor in 2020 before Miracles had existed as a mechanic--I agree it would be busted now), but they do a very good job and I'm much comfortable with their decisions over those of this forum.

In terms of printing stupid permanents, however, R&D had a lot of explaining to do.

[Koby]

FYI - the "loud noises" I refer to are published articles, not murmurings in strategy forums. Generally putting a real name to a bold idea and getting an editor to agree to print is means you have a well enough reasoned argument for or against a card being banned.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Gush seems too slow to cast and if not cast it sets you back too many turns from land drops. It is Loosly comparable to thoughtcast.

Just stop while you are way way way behind, seriously.

[Ellomdian]

Balance unbanned? Chirst no that would be far far worse than most other cards on this list like mind twist. I think Nedleeds said it, that it would send creature strategies back to the stone ages

I don't think you can unban Balance, but based on the criteria (one from each color) it is physically the only White card on the list. (Except Shahrazad, and that is effectively a 'Dex and Ante' card now.)

More an observation that an argument to unban.

unless im missing something, minds desire seems ok to unban. it doesn't seem like it would yield more wins or any better consistency than tendrils. I didn't play with it when it was legal so its possible im missing something.

if memory jar was not one sided it would probably be ok to unban but since your opponent never really gets to reap the rewards its "unfair".

If wheel of fortune was not splashable and was RRR instead of 2R then it would probably be an ok card.

Gush seems too slow to cast and if not cast it sets you back too many turns from land drops. It is Loosly comparable to thoughtcast.

My brain hurts. Tendrils just happens to be the card that wins you the game if you satisfy a certain criteria. Desire can not only be a Wincon (FREE SPELLS!) but it's the engine that gets you there - no one Tendrils into Tendrils like you can Desire into Desire...

Jar IS one sided, and an (effectively) one-sided draw7 at that. Nope, nothing inherently broken here!

But most of all, and the reason my brain is leaking out of my ears - Gush is absurd. I think RUG would immediately run 5. Gush should only ever set you back a land, as you play it before a land drop (that it guarantees,) it effectively draws you 3 instead of 2 (again, that land "stranded" in your hand, and it's not like Brainstorm or Jace is a card in Legacy,) it's a free spell (debatable as the most powerful mechanic ever, only ever arguably tied with Storm,) and on top of all, it happens to pitch to FoW and is protection from Wasteland. If Thoughtcast were printed as legal US Tender, on Gold Tablets, with the 11th and 12 commandments on it and a pony attached, it would still compare unfavorably to Gush. If anything, Gush compares unfavorably to Ancestral Recall.

And we used to complain about it in Limited. /sigh....

[Lord Seth]

My brain hurts. Tendrils just happens to be the card that wins you the game if you satisfy a certain criteria. Desire can not only be a Wincon (FREE SPELLS!) but it's the engine that gets you there - no one Tendrils into Tendrils like you can Desire into Desire...

Mind's Desire isn't really a wincon, because you have to Mind's Desire into something that can actually win you the game; that's your win condition. When you cast Mind's Desire, your goal with it is to get your win condition, whatever it is, similar to when you cast Ad Nauseam. Tendrils of Agony, on the other hand, is a win condition.

The real comparison points for Mind's Desire should be Past In Flames and Ad Nauseam, not Tendrils of Agony.

[ahg113]

There are only two cards safe to unban:
Mind Twist
Earthcraft
I could potentially see Frantic Search unbanned, but it would only fuel unfair blue strategies at the expense of the format. Not a good call in that respect.

Imperial Seal should be unbanned, cost be damned. Mind's Desire enables the win, but is not the win, think that could come off the ban list. Survival of the Fittest, trolling, because soo much grave hate, maybe to coincide with an [loud noises]ENCHANTMENT BLOCK[/loud noises] they let it off.

I disagree with Frantic Search for the stated reason. I would really like to see Windfall and Wheel of Fortune come off, but that's ludicrous, I know. I think because it's "balanced" it'd be ok, but it'd be broken in half by blue/storm/b. wish combo in an oppressive way to keep up an unfair strategy...

[ahg113]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...rces/sfrlegacy


Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Bronze Tablet
Channel
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Earthcraft
Falling Star
Fastbond
Flash
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Imperial Seal
Jeweled Bird
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Rebirth
Shahrazad
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Survival of the Fittest
Tempest Efreet
Time Vault
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will


For reference

[dontbiteitholmes]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...rces/sfrlegacy


Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
//Snip
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will


For reference

What would we do without you...