Originally Posted by Qweerios
my list is very similar to yours, but i'd like to share it anyway:
creatures(12)
2 lavamancer
2 snap
3 clique
4 sfm
1 restoration angel
spells(19)
4 plow
3 bolt
3 force
2 pierce
1 counterspell
4 brainstorm
2 detention sphere
walkers(3)
2 jace
1 elspeth
equip(3)
1 jitte
1 feast/famine
1 batterskull
lands(23)
4 strand
4 tarn
2 mesa
2 tundra
2 volcanic
1 plateau
1 ruins
1 karakas
1 mountain
2 plains
3 island
sb (15)
3 meddling mage
3 rest in peace
2 blood moon
2 pyroblast
2 wear/tear
2 supreme
1 ajani vengeant
main differences-
you play more counters/control elements - I prefer more threats.
I purposely lowered the value of snapcaster mage so that I could play rest in peace just because it is such a powerful card in the current meta
example sb vs deathrite/goyf:
sb in: 3 rip, 2 supreme, 2 blood moon
sb out: 3 force, 2 lavamancer, 2 snap
then i just assume a more control role, and try to chain rip>blood moon>supreme. I've done this several times, and its simply amazing. Just be careful of daze+stifle because assuming you are going to hit 4-5 mana before you die is foolish in this format. I will still try to plow/bolt early threats even if I have the supreme just to buy time/remove disruption. if you can land a sfm>batterskull with a mana up for a pierce, this will do work. rug delver is one of my best matchups. rip directly contributes to that.
another key difference is that I play a feast/famine, which I found to be very powerful, it will often allow me to play way more aggressively. i always have resto angel/clique mana/lavamancer/walker mana up. If you are in a "safe" spot you can tapout precombat for a walker, swing, then have all the mana in the world.
things that I consider adding:
izzet charm - seems versatile, ive tested with it before and been left largely unimpressed, hence my 1 counterspell.
explosives - all around very powerful removal, can be abused with ruins. way faster than supreme, and with the recent scg victory, this might become necessary. hard to play it with rip, but you can def do it (ideally want 2)
second resto - I really want this to happen most of all, but I'm not sure what can be cut for it at this time> maybe Ajani? So far, angel has been a beast for me, blocking delvers, representing snapcaster #3, extra cliques, extra sfm, dodges bolt, flash threat to equip up, etc, the list goes on. I really want another one in. I might cut a RIP for it, since it will be powerful in similar matchups. I really like RIP right now.
surgical - if i were to cut rip, this would HAVE to come in
sword of fire/ice - is it better than f/f? maybe.... Since I'm counter light and feel "soft" to the combo matchup, I just prefer f/f to this. Also, I tend to play more aggressively with f/f because of the free mana.
I can recall a turn vs shardless bug where I play ajani, tapped a tropical down, swung in with equipped mystic, untap, slam blood moon, plow deathrite.
some words on Ajani - I have found him to be stellar. nobody sees it coming, and I really like it in those grindy mifrange/control matchups - basically the jace matchups. I will bring him in vs liliana as well. He might be win more, but I really enjoy playing with it right now. The only reason I can run this is because I play the elspeth main over jace #3, which is questionable. It's worked out for me as of right now, especially with the new legend rule (survives a lot more), so I dont think it's a problem, it just feels weird to have 2 jace, 1 elspeth, 1 ajani as the walkers, but I dont want any more than 4-5 4 drops...
alternate sb: (seems better vs the aggro, less against the jace decks)
3 meddling mage
2 ee
2 blood moon
2 rip
1 supreme
1 resto
2 pyroblast
2 wear/tear
as of right now, the worst matchups are things like miracle control, where your removal/disruption doesnt really bother them and they can play around your counters and play large threats (like entreat). the 2 detention spheres really help in that matchup, if you can catch angels with it then youre ahead of the game. I dont mind playing it early on a counterbalance if there is a window. lll be in philly this weekend, and during the week im testing this and u/w miracles. I have more experience with miracles and I do love me an entreat, but I'm not sure if its right in a heavy tempo environment. Jund won 2 weeks ago, delver won this week, so who knows maybe control is poised. Anything is viable in this format, just go with something you like I guess. I have a list of cards that are "must haves" for me right now, maybe ill just throw them all together and play some u/w miracles with sfm deck.
well, thats my 2 cents. looking forward to any feedback, thanks guys.
I've been fiddling with a basics-heavy, four-drop-centric list designed to be more bomby and kick the crap out of BG decks. It's inspired in part by Jared Boettcher's list found above in SirTylerGalt's link above.
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Charm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Counterspell
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Humility
Grim has been great when he sticks... the problem is that he doesn't. By cutting him, RIP becomes that much less of a pain in the SB and allows us to run trump cards like the aforementioned RIP and Humility with impunity.
Blood Moon is a card that I'm still bent on using since it, like Humility and RIP, can shut down an opponent if not removed or prevented. I know some believe that it has no place in here because we can't play it on turn 1 (like Stompy decks), but I feel it still has a place as a mid-late lock out.
Elspeth has also been stellar. BG decks have a difficult time dealing with her and the tokens she produces, and vaulting a Batterskull or Jitte-equipped dude can aid in the slaying of Lilianas and Jaces while simultaneously killing ground troops.
Venser's iffy for me. Consider it a flex spot.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
I played a few games against BUG on Cockatrice with Esper Wizardblade ( http://mythicgameselmira.com/article/WSS.html ). Venser was awesome. He used Lili's +1 with an empty hand, I responded with Venser, bouncing Lili, making him discard it :) It's also useful to protect your utility lands from wasteland...
I assembled Voltron in the post-SB game: Sorin + Elspeth + Jace. Poor BUG player...
That said, I think red gives us more options than black. I like bolt, REB, and Blood Moon better than discard, Sorin, and Perish... Playing black just for discard is meh. It's easier to justify when you play Lingering Souls or Deathrite Shaman.
Here's my latest decklist. I still can't beat decks with lots of recursion creatures like zombardment. I also can't beat Shardless for some reason. I know bloodmoon gets them, but as a two of its hard.
Lands
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Academy Ruins
creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 restoration angel
spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Izzet Charm
1 ponder
artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives'
planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Envelop
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
I've come up with a similar list, except for the Lavamancers which are fairly weak, as somebody else stated.
Another advantage of cutting Lavamancers is that you can play Rest in Peace that way, which is realistically the only hope Stoneblade has left to beat Punishing Fire.
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punishing fire sucks, but you got 3 surgicals in the board to handle them
I have this deck sleeved up for some time, and I am thinking about bringing it in a tournament comming up in some time. Basicaly, this is what I have so far
Creatures (11)
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 venser shaper savant
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)
3 Island
2 Plains
1 mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 glacial fortress
2 Volcanic Island
1 academy ruins
1 Karakas
Spells (24)
1 Batterskull
1 Blood Moon
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 spell snare
1 izzet charm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ponder
Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 sword of fire and ice
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Meddling Mage
2 flusterstorm
1 Detention Sphere
2 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
1 blood moon
1 celestial purge
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
As is, I like this list a lot. The only thing I am considering is -1 glacial fortress + 1 wasteland, and this is because it is something I usually did with my other versions of stoneblade, keep a 1-of wasteland in the deck in order to deal with a random land that could give me troubles later in the game (usually maze of ith, sometimes a random tar pit,...). My only real question is, what would you are as graveyard hate nowadays? I like relic, however I am somewhat scared of punishing fires. Is rest in peace better in that case? if yes, I am thinking about another configuration that would look like this for the sideboard :
1 Engineered Explosives
1 sword of fire and ice
1 Rest in peace
1 relic of progenitus
2 Meddling Mage
2 flusterstorm
1 Detention Sphere
2 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
1 enlighted tutor
1 celestial purge
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
What do you guys think about that?
Last edited by ThediscoPower; 09-07-2013 at 06:35 PM.
I have been getting flooded even with 21 lands. I think 21 is the magic number
mmm, I don't know. I am kinda scared that I won't be able to get to 4 mana reliably, so 21 lands sounds a bit low.
I like 23-24. Gives you room for utility lands, more basics and ensures the crucial 4 mana this deck needs
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
I've achieved another top 4 performance with a similar list to the one I top 4'ed with a few weeks back (you can compare with the list I posted a couple pages back). Here's how it went, the list, and the thoughts that went into it:
Swiss:
2-0 vs. UG Infect (Too much 1 CMC removal to handle)
0-2 vs. Elves (Blowouts both games and a costly missplay during G2)
2-0 vs. Junk/Rock (Bad draws from my opponent made up for my poor plays)
2-1 vs. EtI Combo (Complete domination during G2-3)
0-0-1 Draw into top8
Top8
2-1 vs. RUG Delver (One of my bad matchups, Ponders and EE pulled me through 4 Mongeese)
0-2 vs. DeathBlade (Back and forth games with my opponent landing Jaces while I fail to find a red source for my spells)
It is interesting to note how I lost every single die roll except one during top 8. It has become a tradition by now...
Creatures (9)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells (22)
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
Others (6)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (23)
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Blood Moon
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Engineered Explosives
Ponder was an all-star the entire tournament. I drew them in every round and they granted my every wishes. I initially wanted to test a pair of Ponders to increase the availability of my red sources and to make sure that I would get a Jace by turn four, and it was a success.
Spell Snare was definitely a card that I wanted 2-3 copies of in whatever deck I chose to play for that venue. Most of the cards that I actually want to counter rather than remove have a CMC of 2. SFM, CB, RiP, Strix, and Snap are all top tier cards that I don't want resolved. They shone in testing but I didn't get to use more than 1 during the tournament.
I voted against Izzet Charm entirely and replaced it with a 3rd Bolt. Removal was what I used it the most for, Spell Pierce at 2 mana is underwhelming, and I currently have no Crucible of Worlds to abuse the 3rd ability. Bolts are better at handling Planeswalkers and that seems to be the only thing a 2 CMC Spell Pierce will counter.
I heeded SirTylerGalt's advice on Izzet Staticaster > Sulfur Elemental mainly because the card doubles up as hate against tribal, and I was expecting a few. Unfortunately, I didn't get to use him. The Elves matches were blowouts. I managed to get a Jitte online in both games and still lost miserably. However, I still feel like this matchup is in our favor, it simply didn't pan out that way.
The Redirect tech bit the dust in favor of Blood Moon.
Grim Lavamancer didn't make the cut. I removed him from my list because he was too unstable:
-He has no immediate impact
-He can be irrelevant to the matchup at hand by either:
a)having an irrelevant ability, or;
b)being unable to activate him
In the end, I took him out for the Ponders, and will never look back.
Riptide Laboratory was the most unreliable utility land. There were times where I definitely wish I had one, but overall, Wastelands are more pragmatic and put up better results. Yet, I still couldn't find the space to fit the 3 copies I wanted.
I replaced the 4th Snapcaster with the 3rd Spell Pierce. I am still unsure if it is the right call but I did so because I wanted to reduce my odds of drawing early Snaps or of drawing multiple target-less ones. Snapcaster has very little impact without multiple spells at his disposal. He is also not central to my game plan and strictly for value and versatility.
Venser out of the board has been unsatisfying for me as of late. Against aggro decks, he is usually too expensive for his impact on the board. Most creatures have a CiP value effect that I wouldn't want to trigger again. He is too expensive for any combo deck outside of SnT. His impact in control mirrors is often less than a Snapcaster. Without Karakas, Venser unperformed.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
What about a second Jitte in the side? It's really, really good in some match-ups and now that our Jitte can't be Jitte'd by our opponents (who will never connect with theirs due to our obscene amounts of spot removal), I'd say that a second one could be worth a slot.
What do you guys reckon?
In UWR:
The only reason you'd want a second one is if the first gets destroyed. I've been testing various swords in the main. My hunch is that the correct one is Feast/Famine, unless your meta has a lot of xblade decks, in which case you want Light/Shadow.
Surgical Extraction doesn't really do anything against a Punishing Fire opponent worth his salt. This changes drastically if you have Wasteland, as you can then just Surgical the Groves. However, this falls apart if they e.g. play two groves before you manage to wasteland them. Blood Moon is worth looking at, but Punishing Fire decks with Veteran Explorer can easily remove it, and it's hit or miss whether the other ones can remove it as well with e.g. float mana, Abrupt Decay (or Force, or make you discard it).
Punishing Fire, plus the rise of goblins (Merfolk is unloseable), has encouraged using Sword of Fire and Ice as the third equipment, but it still has the Abrupt Decay problem.
Last edited by Malakai; 09-11-2013 at 01:43 PM.
Everything in legacy has the "Abrupt Decay problem." SoFI is worth it.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
(Except Jace, Elspeth, Restoration Angel)
I only meant that SoFI doesn't solve my Punishing Fire problem, even if it does help.
Anyone thought about running young pyro in the uwr build? Be amazing at stalling the board and protecting jace like lingering souls. Also amazing at carrying jitte.
@Fired88
Dont like the idea. Why?
Becaue we don't Play a lot cantips like Ponder and Gitaxian Probe. We don't Play any daze and rarely a FoW. We can't Play a Cabal Therapy.
And we don't Need a 2/1 dork^^ Snapcaster and Stoneforge are a lot better. Grim too.
When you like the 1/1 Tokens you should Play the a lot better Lingering Soul and the normal Esperblade lists.
If vensor is not working out then drop it and go with SoFaF or SoFaI dependng on what you face most often and have trouble with. I would also do 3 spell snare and 2 spell pierce from what I read in your report. Adding the forth bolt wouldnt be bad either but I have no suggestion on what to cut. I would also tweak the mana base just a touch but not without further testing.
I took a tweaked list similar to Qweerios' to a random Wednesday night Legacy event locally, which we had 15 people! Wow I've never seen anything that big on a random weeknight. Anyway; it played very consistently and I felt like I had game against the decks I faced.
R1 - Pox - Jace is a hell of a card for monoblack Pox to deal with. Fateseal to pressure his Cursed Scroll while I try to grind out a creature to attack him with.
R2 - UW Stoneblade - the removal was clutch here. Also, Supreme Verdict out of the board FTW.
R3 - Junk - 7 removal ftw
R4 - Elves - 7 removal ftw
List I played:
4 SFM
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser Shaper Savant
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 StP
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Jace TMS
1 EE
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
SB:
2 Meddling Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
1 EE
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sword of Feast & Famine
1 Detention Sphere
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wear/Tear
The basic mountain doesn't feel like it's needed, but having another staple source of mana might be. I could see it being replaced for another basic Island or a Volcanic Island to help ensure a decent amount of red sources.
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His list caught my attention as well and I sleeved it up 2 days ago. Didn't have the chance to take it to a weekly yet but it's nice to hear it's performing. On the surface it still looks like it could be buried under the card advantage of Shardless BUG which is the main thorn for me. Did any of you guys test this list against BUG?
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