[Deck] 12 Post

[HoneyT]

This list seems boss. I like all this red coming out of the woodwork, but I can't imagine playing without fluster - even more than playing without the other blue. How's are games 2-3 against combo? Storm and omni in particular. And hows punishing fire? It's a repeat effect but do games develop where you need to be leaning on it? How easy has TtB been to reach?

Games 2 and 3 are fine. If there is more combo in your meta, you can run more hate. Trinishpere is fine too. The important part is to vary the hate. The combo decks can normally play through one type of hate, but when they have to fight through Mindbreak Traps, Thorns, and REBs it becomes much more difficult for them, buying enough time to fire off a TtB or Titan.

Punishing Fire is a house. It allows you to take back control from the Team America/Jund type decks when they have the DRS/Hymn/Wasteland/Liliana draws. It's also just an incredible engine in the metagame right now. The reach it provides is not insignificant either. Sometimes you Breach an Emrakul or miracle a large Bonfire and need to finish off the last few points of damage.

[TimHarding]

Fiddled with the Green Red, and RUG Versions. They're good! Re-tested the 2012 build, also still good lol ..

Lot's of testing to do. The non-core constant for me has been Glen Elendra.

With all this Thragtusk and TtB, I'm curious to see how you all are getting to sit on all these 5 mana cards so consistently. My avg CMC is constantly a few points lower than a lot of lists, and I couldn't imagine ticking it up .. explore is even a little rich for my blood..

This weekend I'm running some MD/SB split of 4 DRS and 4 Bonfire. #YOLO

[Davek]

Games 2 and 3 are fine. If there is more combo in your meta, you can run more hate. Trinishpere is fine too. The important part is to vary the hate. The combo decks can normally play through one type of hate, but when they have to fight through Mindbreak Traps, Thorns, and REBs it becomes much more difficult for them, buying enough time to fire off a TtB or Titan.

Punishing Fire is a house. It allows you to take back control from the Team America/Jund type decks when they have the DRS/Hymn/Wasteland/Liliana draws. It's also just an incredible engine in the metagame right now. The reach it provides is not insignificant either. Sometimes you Breach an Emrakul or miracle a large Bonfire and need to finish off the last few points of damage.

Why do you prefere running Thorns over Sphere of Resistance? we are running so few creatures that i think the malus is not so relevant for us. Sphere can ruin the day of decks like Elves and slow down considerably other creature-based decks like Maverick, DnT and Merfolks (if they do not open with Vial, of course)

[ac3eb]

With all this Thragtusk and TtB, I'm curious to see how you all are getting to sit on all these 5 mana cards so consistently. My avg CMC is constantly a few points lower than a lot of lists, and I couldn't imagine ticking it up .. explore is even a little rich for my blood..

This. It seems like the curve just keeps going higher. I'm still on the pithing needle + repeal plan since wasteland is prevalent in my meta (and most metas?) and an early waste hurts like heck. The issue I see with the R/G version is that you have problems dealing with anything that has toughness greater than 2. The hardest part for the deck, from my experience, is transitioning from the 2-3 mana "phase" to the 5-6 mana phase. Bonfire doesn't solve an early goyf for example, which can easily get 2-3 hits by itself without a way to deal with him (previously done with repeal). Granted, the deck does look awesome.

[Rock Lee]

Fiddled with the Green Red, and RUG Versions. They're good! Re-tested the 2012 build, also still good lol ..

Lot's of testing to do. The non-core constant for me has been Glen Elendra.

With all this Thragtusk and TtB, I'm curious to see how you all are getting to sit on all these 5 mana cards so consistently. My avg CMC is constantly a few points lower than a lot of lists, and I couldn't imagine ticking it up .. explore is even a little rich for my blood..

This weekend I'm running some MD/SB split of 4 DRS and 4 Bonfire. #YOLO

Are you going to Poughkeepsie? or Elmira Tim? for testing.

[Hopo]

The deck doesn't likely need any new finishers and I usually try to stay away from the spoiler hype, but this thing being unounterable, having haste and being an easily castable mana sink might be good at some point.

[Lemnear]

The deck doesn't likely need any new finishers and I usually try to stay away from the spoiler hype, but this thing being unounterable, having haste and being an easily castable mana sink might be good at some point.

Great Sable Stag Syndrome

[Hopo]

Great Sable Stag Syndrome

Stag is lacking 2/3 things that made me think this could be useful. And the one thing in common is uncounterability. Not the smartest comparison, I think.

[Lemnear]

Stag is lacking 2/3 things that made me think this could be useful. And the one thing in common is uncounterability. Not the smartest comparison, I think.

Uncounterable, protection from blue, green, dies to every common removal in Legacy (more than Stag because it lacks protection from black)... I think they ARE comparable

The only thing that sets this creature apart from Stag is Haste.

At the point of cmc where this creature becomes relevant it has so compete with Titan and GSZ imo

[Julian23]

Last time I checked, Abrupt Decay was still a thing.

[Hopo]

Uncounterable, protection from blue, green, dies to every common removal in Legacy (more than Stag because it lacks protection from black)... I think they ARE comparable

The only thing that sets this creature apart from Stag is Haste.

Unlike Stag, this has a relevant body in this deck. Which means it doesn't die to any red removal, which are common in legacy. Protection is irrelevant, hence I didn't list it to begin with. Of course, they are both green creatures so there's that.

At the point of cmc where this creature becomes relevant it has so compete with Titan and GSZ imo

Titan not so much I think, but Zenith is a valid point. If it had any sort of (relevant) evasion, it would basically be an uncounterable X-spell with defensive capabilities attached. Now that people seem to be toying around with Bonfire, it's not that far fetched to look deeper into this "killing by inflicting damage" route.

Like I said, the deck hardly needs anymore finishers but outside standard, this is one of the few decks that could get anything out of this. Probably not in any of it's current iterations, but no need to discard the idea just because Wotc printed a bad creature sometime earlier.

[Lemnear]

Last time I checked, Swords to Plowshares and Gaddock Teeg were still a thing.

fixed

[Davek]

I think that Hydra is a stinker. If it had flash instead of haste it could maybe worth a test for some useful combat tricks, but as it is... When your BUG opponents will see this card they'll say " fine, i finally have a target for this abrupt decay that was rotting in my hand"... and that's all.

[Hopo]

fixed

I agree that creatures die to removal. Teeg I don't get.

[Julian23]

I agree that creatures die to removal. Teeg I don't get.

It's not creatures dying to removal. It's expensive creatures dying to removal without doing anything; no EtB triggers, no use in the graveyard, just big and dumb. Tarmogoyf is a noteworthy exception as you will most of the time at least be trading similar amounts of mana. Trading your entire mid-/lategame turn against a 1 or 2 mana spell out of your opponent is a very bad trade tempowise and provides a huge advantage to your opponent. Note how Titan is different in the way that you at least get big use out of his EtB trigger. On top of that, the Hydra doesn't even have Trample...I just don't see this card going anywhere.

[Lemnear]

Ok, Teeg only prevents non-creature x-spells.

[Hopo]

It's not creatures dying to removal. It's expensive creatures dying to removal without doing anything; no EtB triggers, no use in the graveyard, just big and dumb. Tarmogoyf is a noteworthy exception as you will most of the time at least be trading similar amounts of mana. Trading your entire mid-/lategame turn against a 1 or 2 mana spell out of your opponent is a very bad trade tempowise and provides a huge advantage to your opponent. Note how Titan is different in the way that you at least get big use out of his EtB trigger. On top of that, the Hydra doesn't even have Trample...I just don't see this card going anywhere.

Hydra has the problem of not having evasion. Haste is better than nothing but it sure is no etb-trigger.

All I'm saying is that at some point or in some specific meta this could be an option. The biggest problem I see is that it doesn't add to the inevitability and only smacks face. Since people are talking about x-spells here and the spoiler season is on, this sort of was a mandatory discussion to be had.

[HoneyT]

Why do you prefere running Thorns over Sphere of Resistance? we are running so few creatures that i think the malus is not so relevant for us. Sphere can ruin the day of decks like Elves and slow down considerably other creature-based decks like Maverick, DnT and Merfolks (if they do not open with Vial, of course)

Because we're not a prison deck. I wouldn't board in Spheres for those matchups (except Elves). Punishing Fires and Bonfires handle those decks and with the mana denial package in Mav, DnT, and Fish, I want to be able to TtB or resolve Titan ASAP.

Also, the X-green dude is garbage. Like total garbage. There is no point on the mana curve where you would want to cast that guy over any other spell in the deck.

[Rock Lee]

Also, the X-green dude is garbage. Like total garbage. There is no point on the mana curve where you would want to cast that guy over any other spell in the deck.

Eh. I wouldn't be so quick to judge. I think the greatest weakness of the R/G version of the deck is a general weakness to counterspells. You don't have high advantage spells to pressure/force counters. One way of addressing this is running uncounterable spells. I ran abrupt decay specifically for this purpose for awhile.

I personally think the R/G version is significantly weaker than the R/U/G version, but Punishing fire does shore up most of the weaknesses of the hydra.

Regarding hydra being useful in a R/U/G version, I strongly doubt that would happen unless merfolk/sea stompy completely breaks away, and even then Skylasher seems better.

[HoneyT]

Eh. I wouldn't be so quick to judge. I think the greatest weakness of the R/G version of the deck is a general weakness to counterspells. You don't have high advantage spells to pressure/force counters. One way of addressing this is running uncounterable spells. I ran abrupt decay specifically for this purpose for awhile.

I personally think the R/G version is significantly weaker than the R/U/G version, but Punishing fire does shore up most of the weaknesses of the hydra.

Regarding hydra being useful in a R/U/G version, I strongly doubt that would happen unless merfolk/sea stompy completely breaks away, and even then Skylasher seems better.

I would rather play a tutorable Cavern of Souls or Boseiju as opposed to filling my deck with a card that doesn't do anything. It will resolve. That's it. It will get blocked or killed. If I wanted an uncounterable X spell I would play Banefire.