I've attended a 15 man event last thursday night playing Thune Pod with disastrous results. First of all the list:
4 veteran explorer
2 wall of blossoms
1 scavenging ooze
1 strangleroot geist
2 kitchen finks
1 eternal witness
1 varolz, the scar stripped
2 spike feeder
1 academy rector
1 murderous redcap
1 linvala, keeper of silence
1 sigarda, host of herons
2 archangel of thune
1 thragtusk
1 sun titan
3 pernicious deed
1 recurring nightmare
4 birthing pod
3 sensei's divining top
2 green sun's zenith
4 cabal therapy
3 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
3 forest
3 plains
2 swamp
3 verdant catacombs
3 windswept heath
2 phyrexian tower
SIDE
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Nether Void
1 Nevermore
1 stony silence
2 maelstrom pulse
1 surgical extraction
Round 1 vs ANT
G1 I cabal therapy after seeing a basic island and he brainstorms in response. Knowing the player I put on sneak show and I name Emrakul since the brainstorm is likely to hide the combo enablers and if he discards emrakul he would shuffle the deck. Turns out he's playing ANT and goes off on turn 3 fairly easy.
I bring in 12 cards: surgical, void, stony, silence, nevermore, canonist, seize, memoricide, cranial, carpet
G2 I therapy turn 1 for LED and find nothing but see that he had keep a slow hand with some cantrips and stable mana. Unfortunately for him on turn 3 I play an explorer, sac to the therapy grabbing some tutors and play nether void. Some turns later he concedes.
G3 I lay 2 carpets, grab a card from his hand with therapy then he makes 10 goblin. I'm able to hold the field with tusk and a fink, but then draw nothing but lands while he finishes me with tendrils without storm...
I have to say that I messed a little with the combat maths, but ultimately didn't mattered because of me not drawing anything and him naturally drawing his lone tendrils for the kill.
0-1
Round 2 vs shardless BUG
G1 he plays multiple shamans, blind cascades into multiple visions, plays multiple jace and lily but I'm able to stabilize thanks to titan recurring wall of blossoms and deed. However at some point he bounces the titan, hymn my recurring nightmare away and forces the titan; next turn he draws 3 from AV and I can't keep up against the card advantage. I remember that this game I had 3 lands left in the deck and never drawn something useful like Pod, top or a real creature...
I don't think I've misplayed in this game but I'm not sure: maybe I should have killed jace before lily.
I side in the carpets and the maelstroms
G2 I have top, explorer, feeder and some other goodies: if I find a Thune or a pod fast enough I may combo off and maybe go to G3. However I don't find anything and time finishes...
0-2
Round 3 vs Sneak and Show
G1 he plays island->go, i therapy and he brainstorms in response. I know that he's on S&S so I reason as before and name emrakul: his hand is only mana, 2 petals and a probe. He draws, plays the petals and a land and passes. I therapy again naming probe and see an intuition; on my EOT he intuition for sneak and play it on his turn. On my turn for the first (and last) time in the tourney I draw and play Pod!!!! Now I'm gonna combo!!!!.... back to real life, I know I was walking on thin ice but pod was the only thing I could cast. In his turn he rips brainstorm that gives him both emrakul and griselbrand....
I side in 12 or 13 cards...
G2 I therapy taking away his S&T and seeing that he has spell pierce and double sneak. I have a second therapy in hand but I fail to draw a 2 or 1 CMC creature or the third land that I needed to play around the pierce and die orribly to hasted emrakul
0-3
At this time I would have liked to play another much just for testing purpouses, but I get the bye...
I admit that this was the first time I was playing Nic Fit (although back in the days I was a Rock (and his minion) player and the decks function likewise) and I probably haven't played optimally, and I'm also aware that this deck is weak against combo.
However I think that the deck has some serious problems because it works only if birthing pod is in play, otherwise is choke full of suboptimal creatures.
Maybe I'll try the blue version, but if I'd have to play again the white one I would focus more on rector.
Impression or suggestion are appreciated.
Ignorance is strength
Partially this. My old Rector list barely ran spot removal in the first place -- it ran a 1-of each Pulse and Vindicate, and relied on passing those through Eternal Witnesses and Recurring Nightmare/Sun Titan shenanigans to keep blowing stuff up. Also, obviously, Deed. The list also Rector'd up Moat, which acted as a sweeper in a lot of scenarios. I tested both Swords and Decay in Rector and was disappointed by both.Originally Posted by CRich3
Thune is a little different -- subtly so, but the difference is there regardless. In Thune, you have a couple of additional deckbuilding constraints. You need a very heavy creature count in order to make Birthing Pod actually function. You can't run one 4-drop, because then you'll have a percentage of games where you either draw that 4 drop, or you need to Pod a 3->5, and you already used it. One of the very first things to get cut for space for additional creatures is the spot removal. For one, we still have Pernicious Deed as a catch-all. But, additionally, we're putting in two classes of creatures:
-) Persist-(ant) value creatures that block for multiple turns.
-) Lots of creatures who either gain life or have lifelink.
Remember, via Theory of Life (opposite of Theory of Fire): 3 life = 1 turn. Thragtusk is so strong because just off of the lifegain alone, he gains you a turn and a half -- not counting his two bodies. Kitchen Finks and Spike Feeder are each worth just over 1 turn, again, not including the free blocks.
There's another reason we don't need spot removal for Thune, too: we have a combo.
One of the reasons that Rector ran Pulse/Vindicate was because it was a value+recursion-based control deck. If your opponent had an Academy Ruins online, it needed to be dealt with, because it was another engine that rivaled your own. Now, if your opponent is durdling around with Ruins or some other attritiony engine, you can opt to ignore it and just go infinite instead.
Not having traditional spot removal does admittedly open you up to a weakness to the t2 naturally-flipping Delver openers from tempo decks. However, it is very rare for Delver decks to be able to sufficiently tempo GBW Nic Fit, especially when post-board we gain Carpet of Flowers to operate alongside Veterans and ramp creatures. Sometimes they don't have Delver. Sometimes we have a turn 2 Archangel and they don't have a counter. It's all numbers. More often than not, the general course of game is that they have Delver, we have ramp, we drop some Finks and Spikes and time walk a few times while getting smacked for 3 every turn, and eventually something broken happens. We stick a Deed, or a Pod, or an Archangel or a Sigarda or a Zenith for Sigarda, or a Tusk, or whatever. Delver decks cannot beat any of those things.
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I don't have anything for you guys this morning. I've been sick with a bad head-cold for about four days now, and as such, I didn't make it to Mythic this weekend, which incidentally really depressed me. Well, that, and the 7-game losing streak on League that knocked me back down to Silver 5....I love having more farm as jungle than our ADC ._.
Anyway. Evan, did you play Scape at Mythic? If so, how did it go?
I started playing Scape at a local legacy league- a fairly atypical metagame as there's almost no tempo and very little combo. Last week's 3 rounds featured a draw to Death and Taxes (slow opponent that prevented me from winning in turns by casting Cataclysm), loss to TES in 3 games, loss to Death and Taxes in 3 games with reasonably close losses and a not-very-close Scapeshift game. Revoker naming Deed with Mom backup is a real pain, as is Mirran Crusader. Will likely be adding a Massacre to the board over a Red Blast because I haven't seen many decks that I want REB against. The 1-2 Stoneblade decks don't count as I feel pretty comfortable in that matchup to begin with.
May be trying out Thune in the league at some point, though I'd be playing Sylvan Ranger over Viridian Emissary. I definitely want to test the deck because it seems very powerful and let's face it, it's really sweet. It looks WAY better without the Living Wish package, though I think it's still a little unfinished. Completely without testing, the Mindslicer in the board seems like a bit of a weak slot to me, but I understand the reason it's there and I can't think of a better solution as a "screw you combo" card at the moment. Hopefully I can get some testing in this week and give some real input.
Yeah, I might be biased regarding 'Slicer from my playing Melira Pod in modern -- Slicer has been an absolute house for me there vs both combo and UW(x). It seems like a reasonable thing to test for Thune, although I'm keeping an eye on it as one of my pet cards which may not be good enough.
DnT can randomly be challenging, which is one reason I favor Virtue's Ruin in the sideboard over Perish. If there aren't any Teegs in your meta, feel free to replace Virtue's Ruin with Massacre -- just realize that you're basically stone-cold out against Teeg + Revoker, then. Cabal Therapy always names Revoker vs DnT, as if they don't have a Revoker on Deed, the matchup is largely a joke. If you know that they're on Cataclysm, it may be correct to bring in Slaughter Games to remove that out -- DnT's best weapons against us are Revoker, Cataclysm, and Mangina+Karakas lock. Revoker is an easy blind-Therapy -- the other two you can evaluate and nab on flashback. Sometimes Pyroclasm and Golgari Charm can be massive blow-outs (if you're still on Charm).
Your general plan vs DnT is to ramp up, disrupt, sweep one or two times, and then scapeshift for the kill. You're almost certainly not going to be winning via beat-down against DnT -- their board presence is too massive and Scape's is too insignificant. Thrag doesn't do so hot vs a Mirran Crusader with a Sword on him.
Hmm...interesting. I always thought of nic fit as a control deck. I guess you don't really need spot removal, though, if you're outclassing your opponent's creatures with a turn 3 thragtusk.
What do you think about running 1 deathrite shaman over 2-drop ramp creatures?
It is a control deck, but it's a board control deck. It controls your opponent's board presence and controls via your own board presence. This is, incidentally, why stack-based combo is about the worst thing you can face.
You could try a 1-of Deathrite, although it's beyond me what you'd cut for him. The Tribe-Elder and the Sylvan Ranger both serve pretty important functions, and being a 2-drop is important. I definitely wouldn't suggest cutting a Veteran. I guess the closest would be cutting Scavenging Ooze, but I like having a bomby 2-drop to get lategame, and the incremental lifegain from Ooze is insanely strong with Archangel onboard.
So, I currently run one IoK and one thoughtseize along with the four therapy in my deck. (Still Thune/Feeder)
Thoughts on replacing those 2 discards with 2 probes?
Or 3 probes for Iok, thought and one land? (currently run 22-3 heath, 3 cata, 2 bayou, 2 savannah, 1 scrubland, 1 karakas, 2 tower, 3 forest, 3 swamp, 2 plains)
I don't like it. If you're up against combo, knowing how they're going to beat you + drawing a random card seems strictly worse than probably taking some combo piece of an indeterminate variety. You're likely sideboarding these two slots out against fair decks anyway, so the change is meaningless there.
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Sidenote for Pod lists of all color combinations:
Thoughts on Necroplasm?
Comes in off Pod (or cast), destroys all Delvers on the turn it comes in, all Monguise, Grims, Deathrites, and other annoying 1s on the turn after, then all Goyfs, Oozes, Bobs, Stoneforges, and such on the turn after, and then finally takes out Geist of St ******, Clique, and itself on the final turn -- then it can dredge back and do it all over again.
May be too cute, but might also be worth testing.
I've been working on a modern list with Necroplasm. He's a bit slow, but good for taking out flipped delvers and other tokens. He's not that reliable for much else, but can occasionally get there. I suspect in Legacy this will be emphasized more. Test it and let us know what you find.
Well here is what I played Sunday night for MTGO daily. I didn't keep exact notes because I was tired and I was watching football at the same time. Most of my notes are from writing down what I see with therapy.
Lands: 21
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamps
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Phyrexian Tower
Creatures: 20
1x Starved Rusalka
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
3x Academy Rector
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan
Spells: 19
3x Sensei's Divining TOp
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Recycle
4x Green Su's Zenith
Sideboard: 15
3x Extirpate
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Faith's Fetters
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Primeval Bounty
Roud 1: Dredge
Game 1: I play first starting off with turn 1 top. He passes and discards golgari grave troll. I already had scavenging ooze in hand which I played turn 2 instead of using top on my upkeep. But he kills it with contagion. He dredges and discards a couple of Ichorids and Nether shadows. I turn 3 green sun's for gaddock teeg. From here on we are a race back and forth. I use Starved Rusalka to keep his bridges out of his graveyard and to save some damage from Ichorid. I eventually get Grave Titan and I win the race.
SB: -1 Sun Titan, -1 Grave Titan, -1 Fierce Empath, -1 Recycle, +3 Extirpate, +1 Primeval Bounty.
Game 2: He reveals the white chancellor so I turn 1 cabal therapy which gets countered, turn 2 gaddock teeg. Then proceed to top deck 2 green sun's. I draw plenty of removal but not enough creatures to keep up with the race. I extirpated his Dread Return and Golgari Grave Troll early on to slow him down but still couldn't keep up.
Game 3: This game was very close, I mull down to 4. Veteran Explorer, Extirpate, Bayou, Phyrexian Tower. I play turn 1 explorer off bayou and he pass and discards grave troll. I draw top attack for 1, sac veteran explorer to play top and extirpate on grave troll. He applies a lot of pressure with nacromoebas and nether shadows. I top deck E. Wit to Exitrpate dread return, and continue to lay out chump blocks. He had me down to 6 and he was at 18 before I get a threat which is Baneslayer. Then proceed to top deck for the win. Next was E. wit getting extirpate to exile ichorid. Then Thragtusk to gain life to block all of the tokens he was getting from the 2 bridges in his graveyard.
Matches: 1-0
Games: 2-1
Round 2: Enchantress
Game 1: This was a blowout, I play first and start off fetch bayou for top. He plays wild growth on a forest and pass. I don't use top I turn 2 veteran explore to sacrifice with phyrexian tower to decay his wild growth then use top. He plays enchantress turn 2 and pass. I play deed and sac for 2. He draws plays enchantress then enchantress precense and I use top to find Sun Titan. After he noticed the recurring deed he concedes.
Sideboard: -1 Scavenging Ooze, -1 Recycle, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Primeval Bounty
Game 2: This was very close. I start off fast with turn 1x explorer, turn 2 gaddock teeg. Turn 3 nothing. Then turn 4 double therapy revealing his hand of humility, assemble the legion, and replenish. I called Replenish the first one and took assemble the legion with the flashback. I figured he had some high cc spells since he played a turn 1 wild growth, turn 2 enchantress and nothing else. I don't draw any big threats, just 2 e wit and ooze. He eventually draws an oblivion ring and starts to lock me out the game. He drops humility and assemble the legion. I have to use Primeval bounty to fight off his tokens. He had 0 cards in deck 7 cards in hand assemble the legion with 3 or 4 counters, 2 suppression fields. I have 4 creatures, 2 which are 4/4 from primeval bounty which got o ringed a couple of turns back. I also have deed in hand with 6 lands. I had to pay 4 to sac my fetch land. one turn, then 4 to use top to find my 7th land. I then blow deed for 3 him having 2 Karmic Justice out wipes my whole side of the board. But I clear out his tokens and his Solitary Confinment to make him deck himself.
Matches: 2-0
Games: 4-1
Round 3: Deathblade
Game 1: I had a great hand, Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Top, Abrupt decay 2 fetches bayou, forest. He played first and played Marsh Flats and passed. I turned 1 forest top. He plays SFM and gets batterskull, I cabal therapy his batterskull seeing Dark Confidant, JTMS, Vindicate, Engineered Explosives and fetch. I play veteran explorer flash it back and take his Jace. He plays Bob which gets decayed. He play turn 3 grave titan which gets vindicated and tokens get blown up. But he has very few cards. I eventually top into green sun which gets me Sigarda and I ride her to victory.
Sideboard: -1 Sun Titan, -1 Grave Titan, -1 Fierce Empath, +1 Primeval Bounty, +1 Thrun, the Last Troll, +1 Faith's Fetters.
Game 2: He plays a lot similar to game but he gets Sword of Feast and Famine and I have no way to remove it. I started to race him with Sigarda and Thragtusk until he plays supreme verdict then lingering souls.
Game 3: I thought he was just playing Esper until he turn 1 Deathrite. Then turn 2 Bob which I chose to kill Deathrite instead with Decay. I drop veteran explorer which I sac to phyrexian tower turn 2 to play sakura tribe elder (hand is 2 Academy Rector and land). He taps out to play brainstorm into JTMS. I draw another veteran explorer and play rector and pray he doesn't have a counter, which he doesn't I sac to get primeval bounty and proceed to win with veteran explorers, e witness and beast tokens.
Matches: 3-0
Games: 6-2
Round 4: RUG Tempo
Game 1: He plays turn 1 Delver which flips turn 2. He never gets a second land but counters ever spell I play until its to late for me to catch up.
Sideboard: -3 Veteran Explorer, - 1 Fierce Empath, -1 Sun Titan, -1 Grave Titan, +1 Thrun, +3 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Primeval Bounty, +1 Extirpate.
Game 2: I play turn 1 Carpet, the plays turn 1 goose. I then use the carpet to green sun for explorer play fetch and hold tower. I turn 3 sigarda and he scoops.
Game 3: This game I couldn't draw a threat to keep up. I cabal therapy 2 Stifles away, and draw deed for nimble mongoose, and decay for goyf. But I couldn't keep up with the second goyf with counter back up.
Matches: 3-1
Games: 7-4
My conclusion:
-Primeval Bounty is better main than Recycle at this time. I still use recycle a lot but veteran explorer making a 3/3 beast is hard for a lot of decks to deal with. Its probably wrong but I mainly use recycle for combo decks to draw into discard faster.
-I really don't like extirpate, the mana I have to keep up waiting for a spell to get rid of I could of been more proactive and applying more pressure.
-Oblivion Ring is a house with all the show and tell decks. I can't tell you how many times I play Gaddock Teeg and they show into my O-Ring.
-Gaddock Teeg was just a filler card because I didn't know what else to play, but with all the combo decks I'm glad to play 1 MD.
-Scavening Ooze didn't get to shine as much in the tournament but during play testing he is a huge threat.
-The second Faith's Fetters was supposed to be humility but I didn't have enough to buy one. But with Teeg and O-Ring I have never needed it.
Random thoughts:
-I didn't play recurring nightmare all weekend. I don't think this is as strong in this version since I get the same effects attacking with my titans as I do when they enter the battlefield.
-I miss playing Kitchen Finks. He is a house vs tempo and burn decks.
Board control/ramp combo, whichever way you want to look at it
Why exactly?being a 2-drop is important.
I was thinking of cutting STE.
Because birthing pod chain.
You can't pod from STE >_>
Or, it would be a bad idea.
I'll post my full list soon when I have it finished. It's basically arianrhod's thune fit with a few changes.
I really like this idea. Especially for its synergy with thune or feeder in thune fit specifically.
What are people's thoughts on inquisition of kozilek vs. thoughtseize?
Sorry for the triple post
I didn't even think of the synergy with Thune and Feeder. That's highly amusing. Theoretically, you could use one of these options to "jump" the 3-spot, ensuring that the 'Plasm keeps growing indefinitely.
New achievement unlocked: combine Necroplasm + Spike Feeder + Archangel of Thune to destroy an Emrakul.
I don't have a Necroplasm, so I can't test it tonight at my local -- likewise, I actually don't know what I would cut for it yet. But it's probably worth trying. I'll have to order one in =)
As for Inq vs Seize, Seize is almost unanimously better. Premier reason why is Sneak/Show, where sometimes they'll have a hand full of dudes, or a Sneak Attack, or whatever, and Inq does nothing. You generally want the extra discard vs combo decks, and vs combo decks the 2 life is generally meaningless outside of corner cases.
I've shamelessly flashbacked Therapy via STE already. Shit happens.
I really like Necroplasm. My friend's favorite card when he used to play magic back in the day. I usually go get bone shredder in pod at 3 mana but this could be really good.
This is why I'm with Tao on the Sylvan Ranger boat.
Yeah, I'm ideally going to have a 1-1 split between Sylvan Ranger and Sakura-Tribe. I can't bring myself to cut Sakura-Tribe completely, at the very least, not yet. Note that my Sylvan Ranger isn't here yet, so tonight I'm going to be running the Viridian Emissary still. This is purely due to availability.
#Has40duals, #doesn'thavecommons.
So I ran a punishing fire nic fit list at a legacy tournament this past weekend, to a 2-3 record...but my game W-L was 7-6...and but for one (well, I guess 2) noob mistakes, I would have made top 8, and I had a blast with the deck, so it was successful in my book.
I ran Tao's primer list (thanks for that, btw), except my board was:
4 Red elemental blast
4 Leyline of the void
3 Chalice of the void
2 Golgari charm
2 Slaughter games
Match 1: DnT
I convinced my friend Chris to come to his first ever legacy tourney, and of course we get paired up. I basically machine-gunned his board with punishing fire for 2 games, and it was over. Sad face for him :(. 2-0.
Match 2: Mono Red Painter.
Game 1 he draws a billion lands and plays only a blood moon before I kill him. So I don't know whether he's playing MUD or painter. I should have guessed painter based on his lands, but my noob-rustiness means I waffle and don't board for game 2. Game 2 he blood moons again, and by a twist of fate my deck gives me all nonbasics. I'm still in it if I can find a forest off the top, but he gets me. Game 3 we battle back and forth a bit, until he flips the grindstone blindly off the top. GG. 1-2. overall 3-2.
Match 3: SnT
Game 1 is -literally- the most epic game of magic I have ever played. We battle back and forth a bit, with me stripping out his hand, but he rebuilds. Then he slams the show and tell: my board is top, perncious deed, and 6 lands. He drops emrakul and passes. I GSZ for an eternal witness to grab liliana back out of my yard and pass. He swings, and I sack 3 lands, the witness, and the top, but I stack in a look at my top 3 before the trigger, leaving me with 3 lands. There is a second liliana in the top three and I think "what are the chances I will need that?" but stack her on top anyways. He passes back. I draw the seocnd liliana and play the first, making him sac emrakul. I pass. He slams show and tell and a second emrakul and passes. I slam a second liliana. A few turns later he scoops up his cards.
Game 2 he puts me away after a protracted fight. Game 3 we are dueling, and he has a full hand, and I slaughter games. I have to choose SnT or Sneak attack (or emrakul). I pick SnT. He has the other 2 and I lose. In hindsight, this was a very poor choice, but I guess that's how you learn. 1-2, overall 4-4.
Match 4: Shardless BUG
This is supposed to be a toss-up for Nic Fit, but in my experience it is a blowout (probably due to variance secondary to limited experience): Nic Fit just doesn't care about any of the cards this deck plays, so they can get all the CA they want. Game 2 was good I guess: he eventually landed a bitterblossom and gilded draked my thragtusk. I perncious deed his token and kill him with the drake. 2-0, overall 6-4
Match 5: Lands
I still really am shaky in this matchup, psychologically: I just don't know what my lines of play should be, when I should be on defense vs. offense. Game one he does the annoying lands thing. Game 2 I slaughter games out his P-fires and loams and kill him with Thrun. game three I mull to 5, but start with a leyline in play. I get a thrun down and have an abrupt decay in hand. His only permanent is exploration while he looks for a loam. Now, my noob error here costs me the game, the match, and a top 8 berth (my opponent top 8'ed instead): I'm thinking...this decay isn't doing anything for me, so I point it at his exploration. Well, next turn off the top he gets ensnaring bridge. He then Krosan grips my leyline and does the land shimy with ghost quarter. 1-2, overall 7-6.
I actually never fetched the badlands or the taiga, and was wondering if those could be replaced with basics (which I was often hoping for more of). My gut sense is probably not, but just thought I'd mention it. I think I will take my SB back more towards the generally accepted version, since surgicals have broader applicability.
My question to the group is regarding plans against Lands and Painter. I feel like I know what I did wrong against SnT, but not for those two.
Thanks,
Ben
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