If you feel like valueing people you might want to consider Punishing Fire lists. I really think it is the best Nic Fit version. A great SB, realistic ways to beat Jace, a strong Primeval Titan.Originally Posted by CalebD
Obviously I agree with Tao here as we've been the two primary developers of the archetype. Fair deck matchups are an absolute joke and with the red cards in the board the combo matchups become quite favorable as well.
Then what problem matchups does the deck have?
Show and Tell?
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
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Well you didn't see sigarda in any standard decks, why have her in legacy?
Nic fit is very different from other decks in that it's a hardcore ramp deck. The combo is a lot easier to get to if you have 5 lands on turn 3.
Name one marginal creature in my build.Also, putting too many 1-of you will find yourself with plenty of marginal use creatures in many matches.
I finally cut off Dryad arbor... think about this... any hand 1 lander with gsz should be an instant mull, so you should keep any hand with gsz and two lands, in this case i rather fetch for veteran explorer than dryad arbor.
...Yes, except for the fact that for vet ex you need a sac outlet and it costs 2 mana to gsz for.
I completely agree, except I'm not sure I'd like to run a wincon that I can't pod or gsz for (you're not usually going to be podding 1-drops, which you need to do to pod into stoneforge)Another card i took out was strangleroot geist.Yes, it's could to pod twice but you only get a 3/2 haste which his cost isnt too easy to play on T2, so I replace it with SFM and it has been great. You can put BSkull on play and then pod the sfm away...you can copy bskull with metamorph and get it back anytime you want to copy something else.
Thrun was a dificult cut, but it has the same function as sigarda and i would never trade thrun with pod for thragtusk or sigarda, so I replace it with Murderous Redcap which has been nice to keep some board control, especially against DRS
1. Nic fit never was standar, so sigarda fits into the deck list... that's why Ive never seen her in Type 2.
2. //Creatures
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Academy Rector He's damn good, but with DRS he seems underpowered
2 Archangel of Thune trades 1x1 with swords, dismember, not gsz-able... you can combo from it, but is a combo very disruptable
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Deathrite Shaman - Maindeckable graveyard hate and alternate ramp source It doesnt fit into the gameplan. This craetures trades 1x1 and any deck with more copies will outplay your single shaman, Ooze does the same work and it can trade 1x1 after he remove some cards.
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks----Just 1? you are playing Pod with Resto angel, you should max out every card with persist and undying.
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 Restoration Angel
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Spike Feeder Only works with Archangel... on its own is a pretty lame cmc3 since your oponents can cast better spells for that cost (KOTR, Lialiana, Crusher, even loxodon smitter)
1 Necroplasm Totally underpower card
3... I dont see any problema to gsz for veteran if you turn 1 cabal therapy... is a pretty standar play T1 therapy, T2 explorer, flashback and then play a drop 3... in your case a kitchen finks only (witness is not worth it in this turn) or a Pod which you cant activate... leaving it open for removal. Drop 2... is more likely to abrupt decay or stoneforge, etc. Keeping a 1 lander hand with gsz is just awful in this deck full of bombs... dryad dies with deed... also, I think deed with Pod is a nombo... this deck list is not like other nic fits which dont have much more board presence and deed everything away... in pod list you will take a lot of your own cards down with deeds...
4... as I said in point 2... you play a lot of situational 1-of... you should play powerful creatures on their own. That's why you play scavening ooze... it trades 1x1 but he's too good... that's why you dont play KOTR, DRS, Goyfs, all of these cards dont fit into your plan... grind your oponent out of removals. Resto angel gives you a lot of value, has combat tricks, she can take down PWs... save one of your creatures etc... then why play just 1? doing a Bpod into resto angel is just half of its power. SFM is just an idea I got... she is pretty strong at her own... if I draw her or Pod her... I would be more than paid at that moment... pod veteran into sfm, search for 2 lands and a equipment, next turn... if sfm stays in play you have a 2 mana Bskull and a 3cmc creature (sac sfm into finks or witness) or just play Bskull from the hand. Bskull makes every dead draw on late game good (such as Veteran explorer, etc).
Dont take anything of these personal, Im just telling you my experience with the deck and giving you arguments of why those cards seems underwhelming for me. If you dont like my ideas, just dont play the cards Im telling you... but just give it a thought a moment and think everytime how can you make your build better! Im also open to see new cards for BGw Pod lists...
Show and Tell decks are still not great but compared to other Nic Fit versions I'd rather have 4 Therapy, 3 Lilianas and two Thoughtseizes main with 4 REBs, 2 Surgical, 2 Golgari Charm and 2 Slaughter Games in the Side than just 4 Therapy MD and a few mediocre SB cards which is what most other versions can muster up.
Where Fire is worse than other versions is the Nic Fit mirror and decks that use the Stage-Depths Combo. I honestly can't think of any other matchups in which I would prefer a different version.
Is Necroplasm doable in non-Pod builds?
Also, how does this Rector core look to you pros?
3 Academy Rector
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Primeval Bounty
1 Faith's Fetters
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Liliana of the Veil
Rector got really bad with the printing of DRS and RIP, since like 75% of the otherwise excellent matchup fair decks you run into will be running of them. Rector would probably be a DOWNgrade from whatever version of nic fit you are playing now.
I cant speak as much for Pfire, but for Scapewish, in my testing and in tournament experience, Sneak and Show is actually a positive matchup. You have therapy, REB for early interaction, and if the game drags on you can wish for Slaughter games (usually on sneak attack), or just have 7 lands and kill them. Also, unlike other verions of nic fit, you don't always lose to a resolved Show and tell. If you have prime titan in hand, you untap and win. If they drop emmy, you can untap and wish for innocent blood. Their only "combo" that usually gets you is showing griselbrand, or a sneaking multiple fatties.
Omnitell is still pretty terrible, as is storm and reanimator.
In terms of a core rector component that's pretty much it except for personal preference and meta choices. For example I run 0 lilis and recycle instead of bounty as well as main deck moat. In terms of a small scale moat is insane in my meta and I tried bounty out once and was unimpressed then again I have an affection for drawing cards so who knows. In terms of a larger meta moat is probably a sideboard card.
Have you found that your matchups are worse now that RIP/DRS are so common? What does your typical matchup against, say, Deathblade look like?
I ask because I have zero Rectors (and little else of the core), and that's a relatively big chunk of resources needed to get these cards. If I invest more into NicFit (currently GWB), I want to make sure I'm spending wisely.
I considered JundFit with Huntmaster, PFire etc., but that looks even more expensive to build. For the price of 1 Badlands I can get 3 Rector and Nightmare/Bounty and essentially plug them into the list I already have. But is it even worth doing?
Thanks guys, i appreciate the advisement.
The matchups with RIP mainboard are nowhere near fun, but if you can keep the pressure on eventually a deed or a maelstrom pulse will show up, and the issue is also due to RIP also shutting down veteran explorer. Admittedly you just have to go the agro route against miracles with rector (and try and force through thragtusk and sigarda). In term of most deathrite decks people don't actually know how rector works, at least in my experience, which leads to it not being gimped. The main problem I've been running into against deathblade is simply not generating enough card advantage against them. I find the utility of rector to be too much to ignore and if your opponent knows the trick then oh well, but you just go for it, and if they miss the trick then it puts you miles ahead. I've tried punishing fit too and it certainly has a better traditional combo match up, but it felt very straightforward comparatively and after trading for a moat I simply can't get over playing it. In fact I recently jammed it into a miracles deck simply because I had it.
All in all I would say its a play style preference. If you like making sure your opponent never has creature or walkers I would suggest punishing fires, if you want to run some of the most ridiculously unfair cards in the game while also knowing when and how to react to various threats thrown at you then I would suggest rector. At least in my meta I would not play rector without owning a moat, but that's again because I typically play against tribal and BUG cascade 2 or 3 times in a 5 round tournament and it simply shuts down a good 70% of their decks.
Also note that rector is probably the slowest version of the deck and killing people in a timely fashion can sometimes be fairly difficult, the deck tends to do a lot of work to make sure that you won't simply die (instead of working towards winning the game).
Imo Punishing Fire is enough better than Rector that I would say it is worth it, yes.
What are the Punishing variant's strong points (aside from burning everything every turn)? Is the reusable PFire better than reusing Deed (with Sun Titan)?
How does Punishing Fit come out ahead in the attrition wars? (thinking Pox, BUG, Maverick)
Would you consider 3 Marsh Flats a good replacement for Wooded Foothills? Flats allows you to get Badlands and Bayou, and Verdant allows you to get Taiga.
1. Those things are not even comparable. Obviously Sun Titan + Deed is infinitely more powerful. However you can't start doing that on turn 2. Sun Titan + Deed will lock up a game you've already won. Punishing Fires can dig you out of holes as it provides much earlier, more consistent interaction. (Also deals with planeswalkers)
2. Ahead. Well ahead. It's super easy to grind those decks out with P-Fire and clean up with any given fatty they can't deal with at your leisure.
3. No. Sometimes you want to fetch basics too. Though my current split is 4 Catacombs/1 Foothills/1 Mire
Well, I'm pretty sold. Got some Grove of the Burnwillows on the way!
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I wouldn't call grinding out the Shardless matchup "easy". With early Hymns, Lilianas or Jaces they have a good chance of overwhelming you. But still, I'd much rather play them with Fire than with Rector, so trading is worth it in that matchup, too.
Tao, what's with the 1 Sylvan Ranger in your SB? I'm basically copying your list (with a few budget choices).
I use Qweerios' idea to side out all Explorers and all Therapies against Miracles (you can read the exact SB plans for the matchups in OP or in my signature link). So without any Explorers the deck needs another way to search lands with GSZ.
I also notice you don't play Maelstrom Pulse. Is that a meta call? How do you deal with Batterskull, make them discard it?
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