I went to a BoM8 trial last weekend and took dredge. There were 21 people, but as it was an evening tournament there would be no cut to a top 4.
Playing quadlazer with -1 Ichorid and +1 Dread Return. Brought the following sideboard;
4x Firestorm (elves is really popular here)
3x Nether Shadow
2x Dread Return
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Elesh Norn
1x Iona
1x Blazing Archon
1x Ichorid
Decided not to bring anti-hate as a test. I haven't really won any games after trying to claim a RiP, so I'd rather win before they get it down. Also I'll just dodge Leyline of the Void :)
R1 vs 4c Deathblade
Game 1 went perfectly according to plan (win die roll). Opening 7 were 2x Study, 1x LED, 2 Dredgers a Coliseum and an Ichorid or something. He FoWs LED and Study on T1, I proceed to topdeck a Gemstone Mine on T2 and win from there.
Game 2 He has good counters again and this time manages to extract the Ichorids. I get a Flayer into play (with one in the yard), but I manage to not find a DR or even a Therapy on 5 turns to get the last 9 lives off him. Jace returns the demon to my hand and I scoop. (All narcs in the yard as well)
Game 3 the deck tells me I'll not get any byes tonight. I have to mull to 4 and a FoW and Wasteland are enough to keep me down. A quick Geist finishes the job for him.
0-1 (1-2)
R2 vs Affinity
He tells me he's new to Legacy, it's his first tournament in fact. He complains about losing to Tendrils (Doomsday) in the first round really fast both games.
So game 1 goes like this; Land ---> LED ---> Breakthrough ---> Sac LED ---> Looting. I get 50 power on the table to swing turn 2 by reanimating a 17/17 troll a bunch of zombies and returning 3 Ichorids.
Game 2 I have a good hand again and he scoops to T3 Archon.
1-1 (3-2)
R3 vs Ant
Game 1 is tense, but he has a T3 kill staring at a host of zombies as his preordain shows double tutor.
Game 2 I rip up his hand and a quick Iona seals the deal.
Game 3 he kept a risky hand and doesn't find the land needed. I had a very solid hand, completely immune to his discard. I wanted to go DDD, but I topdeck a PImp to make the hand completely nuts and finish it quickly.
2-1 (5-3)
R4 vs Shardless BUG
Again a very nice guy to play against, he hopes I play something fair.
Game 1 is over by T3 (what's with the nuts hands?)
Game 2 he scoops to Elesh Norn
3-1 (7-3)
This is enough to get me 4th, but as there is no cutoff it's just some store credit for me. The Doomsday player won the 2 byes as the 4c Deathblade player didn't want to go to Paris and left them for him.
Very nice opponents all evening, the tournament being in a bar and no elves make this a nice evening anyway.
Is it just me, or is the whole anti-hate package kinda a crap shoot? The way to play this deck is to be the aggressive player, not the reactive player. We already need ~4 specific types of cards in our opener, and adding anti-hate into the equation, we need ~5 specific card types post board.
To me, this stands out as terrible strategic gaming. I'm really not too sure what the answer is, but we all know dredge only does well when people are skimping on their gy hate big time. What does this tell us? It tells us that when there's gy hate everywhere, this deck suffers. It also tells us that the anti-hate plan people apply simply doesn't work, or at least not as much as we would hope.
It makes me feel like we are wasting our sideboard. Maybe there is an answer somewhere in this giant cardpool that just hasn't been dug up yet. I just know the idea of dredge is to be the least bit of interactive as possible, and playing reactive cards simply doesn't help reach that goal. It may be that we need free reactive cards so were not spending our whole turn trying to remove their hate. Idk, is anyone else having similar thoughts?
Last edited by HammafistRoob; 09-21-2013 at 08:11 AM. Reason: cannot spell
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly.Originally Posted by Jander78
"Got any trade boogas?"
Yeah, the requirements for a hand are pretty strict for sb games, but you don't have to see all the pieces in your opener. A majority of the time I don't have all of them. Perhaps you ran into a string of bad luck because there are only a few hate cards that really require us to sideboard answers. Basically if they don't have Grafdigger's or RiP, I don't bring in the reactive cards. Leyline of the Void is gone from what I have seen. Toss it in that list if you see it normally. I've found it's easier to think about keepers for post-board games with anti-hate in your deck if you prioritize the cards you want, like (1) land, (2) anti-hate, (3) dredger, (4) discard, (5) draw.
I wish there were free answers we could build around, but afaik the only ones are Pulverize and Reverent Silence.
The Quad Cities: twice as nice as the Twin Cities.
I know what you mean, and it does suck to be cold to RiP, Cage, and the like. I'm thinking of really focusing on games 1&3, basically conceding the fact if they land hate in game 2, I probably have no board presence or answers to said hate.
When it comes time for game 3 though, I'm hoping to just outspeed their hate. Mainly by exploding on turn1 and stripping their hand. I think it's doable, just not quite sure how at the moment. I'm gonna try boarding 3 DR and 3 Grizz', and go from there. I have a big tourney coming on 10/12 so I've got a little less than a month to prepare. It'll be my first "real" tournament in a long time since my last SCG doesn't really count. I played an untested, untuned pile of crap that was handed to me the day before the event and I still managed a winning record(it wasn't Dredge).
Another idea I've been thinking of trying is to side in FoW and a few supplemental blue spells ala Gitaxian Probe, which speeds us up quite a bit. I've been rereading Feldman's article "The Dark Art of Dredge Fu" an incredible amount of times. I really think he could have the right idea, even though it's a bit dated I think the principle behind his thoughts stands true as far as I've noticed. Anti-hate just sucks imo, and FoW is unlikely to change my perception on that but I wanna test it regardless. I do, however, have high hopes on the triple DR, triple Grizz plan. Any other innovative ideas I should try?
EDIT- This is the board I'm gonna start testing soon. It is very strange, but the current configuration isn't impressing me and I'm trying to shake things up. Bear with me, please.
3 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
3 Winds of Change
3 Firestorm
2 Ashen Rider
1 Cabal Therapy
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
i used to run griselbrand in my deck, the ability to flip your deck is nice, but if you want to explode out and establish board presence i'd reccommend a 1/2 split of griselbrand and flayer, once you mill your whole deck with flayer you simply win. i've always found it better and have gotten pretty good results even just running 1 flayer maindeck.
I'm not running any targets maindeck since I'm aiming for maximum consistency. If I flip my deck with Griz there is absolutely no reason to win that turn since I will be destroying their hand immediately. Flayer is winmore, he always was and he always will be. If my opponent topdecks an out on the last turn, so be it. But the odds of that happening are practically nonexistent. How would they ever win against three Ichorids in the grave and Griz in play with a horde of zombies by his side? It has never happened to me, nor will it EVER happen, therefore Flayer sucks and I will never play that crap.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
lol, im sorry your so offended by the suggestion. however flayer isn't winmore... he's more like "win now". I don't see any reason to let your opponent even have a turn if you could kill them there and then. Griselbrand is more win more then flayer is. If your playing in legacy I don't think you can ever say no situation will ever occur where the difference between the two is irrelevant. if your gonna run dread return flayer is your best bet, especially if your aiming for more consistency. you only need one flayer to kill them, likewise you only need one griselbrand to flip your deck. you asked for forum advice and im just giving you some, three dread return targets in the board all coming in is unnecessary. if your gonna run griselbrand just run one.
if you turn one someone it doesnt matter what your running, you have so much card advantage at that point they can't do anything. but you don't turn one all the time, dredge isn't a deck that can consistently turn one because we have no form of library manipulation outside the initial shuffle. We are at the mercy of how the cards get stacked, and if you don't turn one them even with griselbrand in the deck your still left off fighting against sideboard grave hate like before.
I'm not offended at all, just saying that Flayer is terrible and every list with him is not optimal. My post did kinda come off as harsh and I apologize, as that was not my intent.
The point of having 3 DR and 3 Griz to side in is to give me a much higher percentage to flip them both over with my first draw spell cast with a dredger in the yard. Flayer is winmore, and so are DR targets in general in game one. Hence why they are in the sideboard, Flayer being able to kill them in one turn DOESN'T INCREASE CONSISTENCY, it decreases it because you have less enablers in the deck. Please read the entire thread if you disagree.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
It's all good dude no worries. I have read the entire thread, i've been playing dredge for several years lol. I have tested quadlazer, and I'm just not in agreement with the thread lol. I don't/nor have i ever noticed a consistency difference between quadlazer and main deck dread return at all. But that's neither here nor there.
If your gonna go with 3 grizz/3 dread return your banking hard on that initial flip. I think you'd find more success just running one griselbrand and two dread return, its half the space and requires less sideboard slots that you can devote to diff draw spells if your hoping to maximize your chances turn one.
Regarding hate, in the case of Surgical Extraction, Relic of Progenitus or Deathrite Shaman, I think the deck should avoid playing "answers" and should instead be playing cards that give the deck more resiliency i.e. Ashen Ghouls, Nether Shadows and Dread Returns vs Surgicial Extraction, Tireless Tribes vs Relic of Progenitus and Firestorm vs Deathrite Shaman etc. But if you're talking about Rest in Peace, and to a lesser extent Grafdigger's Cage, I think you should instead be playing cards that let you disrupt your opponent so you can deal with the hate pre-emptively while doubling down on combo, I usually just play 3xThoughtseize vs Miracles, Death&Taxes or Goblins/w and either take their Rest in Peace, their Brainstorm or their one drop and play pro-actively.
I agree completely.
I play a (LED) quadlaser list with -1 ichorid +1 DR, which I really think is the perfect list at the moment.
My doubt is how to play G2.
I think that we have 2 choices:
- We side-in DR + reanimation targets (+ lotus petal?): my doubt is that if they find "RiP or RoP" and we scoop they will mulligan aggressively on game 3 (on the draw) to find them again, and without 4 Claims to side-in this could be a problem.
- We side-in nature's claim / firestorm / ichorid+ashen ghoul on g2: I prefer this option. G2 will probably be a longer game, I will DDD or firestorm against blue decks while trying to see as much hate as possible to avoid traps. Then on g3 I will probably switch sideboard and try to explode with DR + reanimation target (+ lotus petal?). On G3 cabals will be better because I will know what to name.
My current sb:
4 nature's claim
3 firestorm
4 lotus petal
1 dread return
2 FKZ / Griz / Flayer / Ashen Rider
1 Ichorid
My doubts:
- Which is the better between option for G2? I personally prefer option 2 atm but it requires more sb slots than just going for DR on G2 and G3, but I really hate to have an "auto scoop" vs random hate.
- I'm thinking about lotus petal or Street Wrath to further explode on G3. Petal let you avoid daze, while SW is very good against DRS activation on dredger. Do you think they are worth it?
- Which reanimation target is generally the best? I'm thinking about using 2 different targets, unless I will find Ashen Rider + cabal totally awesome.
Thanks,
ML
Winds of Change is kind of embarrassing with Lion's Eye Diamond.
A couple of things here. The first is that you don't lose to just a single Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt. And Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge aren't really effective at fighting this card anyway. Rest in Peace, sure, it's hard to fight.
Anyway, I don't think sideboarding is as structured and as rigid as you think. Vintage Dredge occasionally did this thing where they would win game 1, not sideboard game 2 and see what hate the opponent brought in, because bringing in the wrong tools is worse than not sideboarding at all.
Sometimes I don't bring in Elesh Norn at all. When I bring Elesh Norn in, I don't bring the second Dread Return in. I would only board in FKZ/Flayer against combo decks, where I would bring the second DR in. I would only bring in Ashen Rider against prison style decks, where I would usually bring in the Griselbrand as well. But I actually cut Angel of Despair from my sideboard because I believe Griselbrand + Nature's Claim does effectively the same thing.
I can't imagine a matchup where I both want to bring in the Ichorid and have room for the second one.
Against aggro decks I bring in some Firestorms and maybe an Elesh Norn. Against combo decks I bring in the Griselbrand, the FKZ, and the second DR. Against prison decks I bring in the bounce/removal, the Griselbrand and sometimes the second DR. I only bring in bounce/removal against other decks if I suspect something in particular.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
1) Yeah I know, I've been boarding the LEDs out when the Winds come in. Still no conclusive results with the testing though.
2) Rest in Peace is pretty easy to overcome unless the have the nuts hand. Like "counter your first two spells, RiP" type crap. Miracles doesn't usually pack that much early countermagic so this scenario has been pretty rare for me. Sometimes though, an early Terminus followed by RiP is just as painful.
3) This is true, I played Dredge in Vintage back in like '06-'07 and I literally never sideboarded for game two. I won a lot of them anyway do to the sheer power of the deck.
1) My only gripe with quadlazer is that they clearly don't run enough lands. Right now I'm at 14 lands and am thinking about moving up to 15, bu I'm still unsure at this point.
2) Like Anusien said, we don't scoop to any hate -even if we didn't sideboard at all- except RiP. Playing through hate is more likely than one might think. If they mulligan aggressively to try and find it, chances are that the rest of their hand is crap. OR, if they do find it and have a good hand(quite unlikely) the chances of us having Natures Claim for it are very low. Thinking back on all the times I mulled a perfectly fine hand because it didn't have anti-hate, and ended up not being able to do anything, I'm about 100% positive that I've lost more games because of my own siding plan(the one everyone uses) than I won because of it. It's a pipe dream to beat blue decks postboard if they have a god hand, because your NClaim is going to be countered anyway.
3) It really comes down to knowing the metagame, and what hate each deck brings to the table. I've found Ashen Ghoul to be bad and unneeded, but maybe that's just me.
4) The problem with Lotus Petal is what you are taking out for it, is probably better. I would prefer Street Wraith over it, but I haven't played him in a long time so I can't be sure if he's worth it.
5) Like I said, you almost never auto scoop to random hate. I've been running my exact maindeck against a few Decks to Beat with their sideboards, and I have a pretty good record so far. They need to have ALL the things in their hand to stand a chance.
6) See 4)
7) It really depends on what your goal is, and what you think you'll be playing against. Iona for combo, Ashen Rider for Enchantress & Ensnaring Bridge type nonsense, Griselbrand to try and speed you up against certain shenanigans. I don't like Flayer, FKZ, or Elesh Norn because I think they are completely unnecessary. The only matchups where they can help is Elves and the mirror, but even then Iona or Griz can accomplish the same thing.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 Unmask
Still my favourite sideboard for Dredge.
Edit: It was run by Jason Bulkowski for about a year+ and he also had Sun Titan in the main board for recursion of the combo pieces and 2 Dread Returns. It was a tight little package that catches many unaware. (http://mtgtop8.com/compare?l=_226071_224384_218115_)
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
- Albert Einstein
I've only ever considered bringing in Winds of Change against combo decks. And I'd rather have Lion's Eye Diamond than Winds of Change there. If you want an extra draw effect, the next best one is probably something awful like Hapless Researcher.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
i think street wraith is good in winds of change role
good against combo as it speeds up more and good against DRS saving a dredger
Sideboarding:
In my limited testing sessions I didn't like Ashen Ghoul too much either, because it happened far too often that I didn't have a land to pay B (either because my land got wasted in most cases or I only had a Coliseum, I'm playing 14 lands atm for reference).
I like Nether Shadow more because it's free and can easily be sacrificed for Dread Return post board.
I'm currently testing 4 Unmask in my sideboard in order to bring it in against decks g2 where I don't know what hate is coming, but I haven't made enough games yet to be able to evaluate it.
Another possibility is to board in Ingot Chewer blindly g2 against decks that don't run Rest in Peace.
It has the big advantage of not being susceptible to Spell Pierce, anwers Cage, other artifact hate and equipment and can generate tokens at least in combination with Bridge from Below if it turns out to be unneeded.
What I also haven't tested yet is boarding in Abrupt Decay as an uncounterable catch-all answer (except for Leyline which is pretty much nonexistent), however it would require us to run at least 16 lands postboard. I fear that it's too unreliable regarding the fact that there are only 12 coloured sources available.
Thanks for your answer.
Can I ask which is your maindeck and how do you generally sideboard on G2 depending on the opponent's deck?
Thanks,
ML
I would only bring Nether Shadow in against multiple Extraction decks. Those decks don't really run Wasteland.
Won't you be on the draw game 2 and not be able to Unmask their Crypt/Relic?
Ingot Chewer is a fine card against Cage. It made my short list of "cards that might eventually get side boarded in." But I can't imagine wanting an answer to Crypt/Relic.
Abrupt Decay is interesting. It's probably worse than Serenity, which is generally too slow and conditional to see sideboard play.
Anyway, you seem to feel this need to bring in answers to all hate cards. What terrible cards do you have in the main deck that you can sideboard without disrupting the deck? The easiest way to beat Crypt and such is to just sandbag draw spells. The easiest way to beat Cage/RiP is to be fast enough to overwhelm them before they find it.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
I'm playing the 14 land version with 3 Ichorids and no Dread Return maindeck.
I wouldn't bring in Nether Shadow's neither if I knew that they only boarded in Crypts/Relics, but the problem is: How shall I know?
It would be nice if we could collect some telling cards of the opponents, which give a hint at what they could board in against us.
For example: If I see Snapcaster Mage or Young Pyromancer, I will board in the Shadows and Dread Returns because it is likely that they play Extractions as their graveyard hate of choice.
I always board in the Claims against decks with white, because Rest in Piece is THE hate card you can run when you play white.
Feel free to add some more points to the list ;)
Perhaps I'm just overboarding and my fear of hate cards is unreasonably big :P
The problem I see with the plan of exploding in the face of Rest in Piece is that you don't always have the nuts and can go off before turn 2, at least that 's the case in my testing. Once they land Rest in Peace it isn't likely to come back from that.
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